isadore;436049 wrote:^^^^^
and you justify the people who kill them

Again isadore, I'll try to put this plainly. Understanding that one would not necessarily have to be an illogical, evil person to want to harm an American soldier is not saying that I wish harm upon or sympathize with those who attempt to harm our service men and women.

But I'm not going to sit here and pretend like there are zero reasons for people to be legitimately furious at us and our soldiers in certain parts of the world in specific situations.

I hate seeing our servicemen hurt and killed. I don't want them where they are in harm's way unless there is good reason to be. I don't think there is in either Iraq or Afghanistan so I don't want those who choose to serve put in danger.

The people who enlist are responsible for putting themselves into possible risks.
Political persuasions aside, they know what's possible going in.

CenterBHSFan;437499 wrote:The people who enlist are responsible for putting themselves into possible risks.
Political persuasions aside, they know what's possible going in.

and that is a reason why people should refuse to condemn the taliban scum that kill American service people that kill Americans who are defending us?

I Wear Pants;437429 wrote:Again isadore, I'll try to put this plainly. Understanding that one would not necessarily have to be an illogical, evil person to want to harm an American soldier is not saying that I wish harm upon or sympathize with those who attempt to harm our service men and women.

But I'm not going to sit here and pretend like there are zero reasons for people to be legitimately furious at us and our soldiers in certain parts of the world in specific situations.

I hate seeing our servicemen hurt and killed. I don't want them where they are in harm's way unless there is good reason to be. I don't think there is in either Iraq or Afghanistan so I don't want those who choose to serve put in danger.

No matter how you argue or try to justify it, people who kill American servicepeople are evil. The taliban is an evil organization as are all its members. It represses people, it helped kill 3000 Americansi in the trade center, it want to spread the international caliphate.
The sniper drawing a bead on an American, the scumbag planting an ied, the fanatic strapping on a suicide vest are all evil. None of them are good guys. They should die and rot in hell.

Yes, the Taliban is an evil organization.

You never did answer my question in an earlier thread though. What would you do if you were an Iraqi citizen and your town was bombed and many of your family members were killed? Would you welcome the US soldiers like liberators?

Not everything is so cut and dry.

And you'll probably take this as I hate America or something but that's not true. I have many friends in the military and I wish them the best and respect the hell out of them for serving. I just try not to be naive enough to think that there are no legitimate reasons for people to be pissed at us in the region (post 9-11, those bastards that orchestrated that are unequivocally evil).

^^^^^
If I was an Iraqi? Well lets see, if I was a Shia or a Kurd who between them are by far the largest part of the Iraqi population, I would be damned happy that the regime that had killed hundreds of thousands of my people had finally been overthrown. I would appreciate the people who stopped the repression against us and finally gave us a say in government. If I was a baathist thug or an Islamic fanatic I might not be so happy. Are these the people your heart bleeds for?
Somethings are cut and dry in this world, if you try to kill an American serviceperson you deserve to die, you evil scumbag.
You talk about friends in the military, maybe you can tell all of them what fucking princes the people who are trying to kill them are. I think some of them might be offended by your high opinion of their would be killers.

isadore;437515 wrote:and that is a reason why people should refuse to condemn the taliban scum that kill American service people that kill Americans who are defending us?

I have no idea what you're talking about here, Isa lol

I never said anything about Taliban, and it wasn't a focus of my post at all. Not even a glimmer.

CenterBHSFan;437813 wrote:I have no idea what you're talking about here, Isa lol

I never said anything about Taliban, and it wasn't a focus of my post at all. Not even a glimmer.

CenterBHSFan wrote:The people who enlist are responsible for putting themselves into possible risks. Political persuasions aside, they know what's possible going in.

Well lets see if I can put things in a context, at least as I understood them. I wear pants and I were discussing the American servicemen and their enemies. IWP was arguing how you could be try to kill American soldiers and still be a nice guy. I disagreed. Your comment seemingly defend diminish the guilt of our enemies.
If you were commenting on some other part of the thread, my error.

isadore;437823 wrote:Well lets see if I can put things in a context, at least as I understood them. I wear pants and I were discussing the American servicemen and their enemies. IWP was arguing how you could be try to kill American soldiers and still be a nice guy. I disagreed. Your comment seemingly defend diminish the guilt of our enemies.
If you were commenting on some other part of the thread, my error.

I have no want to diminish our enemies, whatever anybody's definition of "enemy" may be. Their crimes stand alone, IMO

I was simply saying that our soldiers know the deal when they sign up. They know what's going on in the world, at least as far as headlines go. Some are even more well-read on the subject. Some even re-enlist, knowing what they're getting into and where they will most likely go.
Some do it as a career, some do it because they want help with tuition, some do it for pure patriotism.
ALL know the jist.

You did make an interesting comment, though, that I in turn will comment a little on:
"IWP was arguing how you could be try to kill American soldiers and still be a nice guy"

Personally, I don't believe that he thinks that our enemies are nice guys. Unless I'm just extraordinarily naive, I dunno...

^^^^^
as to IWP, I think you are naïve. I believe people who try to kill Americans are bad guys, IWP doesn’t.

I wear pants wrote:So we have the right to just run roughshod over anyone and they are automatically the bad guys for using gorilla/brutal tactics that are their only real way to fight. We are too large an enemy for almost any single country to fight. Is everyone just supposed to bow to our will then?"

In the wake of strong U.S. government statements condemning WikiLeaks’ recent publishing of 77,000 Afghan War documents, the secret-spilling site has posted a mysterious encrypted file labeled “insurance.”

The huge file, posted on the Afghan War page at the WikiLeaks site, is 1.4 GB and is encrypted with AES256. The file’s size dwarfs the size of all the other files on the page combined. The file has also been posted on a torrent download site.

WikiLeaks, on Sunday, posted several files containing the 77,000 Afghan war documents in a single “dump” file and in several other files containing versions of the documents in various searchable formats.

Cryptome, a separate secret-spilling site, has speculated that the new file added days later may have been posted as insurance in case something happens to the WikiLeaks website or to the organization’s founder, Julian Assange. In either scenario, WikiLeaks volunteers, under a prearranged agreement with Assange, could send out a password or passphrase to allow anyone who has downloaded the file to open it.

It’s not known what the file contains but it could include the balance of data that U.S. Army intelligence analyst Bradley Manning claimed to have leaked to Assange before he was arrested in May.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/tag/julian-assange/


The Wikileaks guy has apparently posted a 1.4 GB file (10 times the size of the original file dump last week) free to download that is being labeled as an insurance policy.

Apparently he is beginning to worry about the possibility of being killed by government officials, or having his website rendered inoperable.

Should either of those things happen, I guess a password will be made available to open the file for all to see. No one knows whats in it, but it is a massive file compared to the leaks we have seen already.

The Pentagon has to be beside themselves right now about what is happening with this whole situation as this guy is basically giving them the finger, and it is looking like they might have to sit there and take depending on what other info might have been leaked to this guy beyond those 77,000 documents as if there is something unseemly enough it could sabotage the entire war effort more than it already has been.

We can blow the world up a billion times over, but some punk blogger (depending on how incriminating of our government his "insurance policy" may be) is basically able to be above the law because some dumbass leaked him some files that could be terribly damaging to the war effort.

Our government can't get at the Wikileaks guy, but Bradley Manning (the military member that leaked alot of this stuff) is being held by out government in solitary confinement and is fucked beyond belief. The Pentagon will get their pound of flesh, and heaven help any U.S citizen that was involved in this because they will be held to account.

IggyPride00;438168 wrote: Our government can't get at the Wikileaks guy, but Bradley Manning (the military member that leaked alot of this stuff) is being held by out government in solitary confinement and is fucked beyond belief. The Pentagon will get their pound of flesh, and heaven help any U.S citizen that was involved in this because they will be held to account.

as he/they should. some of the information may seem harmless, but anytime you put information that was kept secret and could be used to harm US Soldiers or citizens, you should burn in hell. they got their headline story, and if they have any sort of concious, they better hope this information isnt used by the enemy.

Bradley Manning is a hero and soon to be a martyr. They will torture his ass. Daniel Ellsburg exposed Vietnam with the Pentagon Papers. By doing so, the American people revolted, and tens of thousands of American soldiers lives were saved.

Footwedge;438284 wrote:Bradley Manning is a hero and soon to be a martyr. They will torture his ass. Daniel Ellsburg exposed Vietnam with the Pentagon Papers. By doing so, the American people revolted, and tens of thousands of American soldiers lives were lost for nothing and the people of South Vietnam were raped and murdered.

there, fixed that for you.

bradley manning is a traitor who will cost the lives of afghanis who have helped us and US. He is scum and deserves any punishment he receives.

isadore;438009 wrote:^^^^^
as to IWP, I think you are naïve. I believe people who try to kill Americans are bad guys, IWP doesn’t.

And I think you believe we have the right to kill anyone we want. You are a war monger.

That quote you pulled out doesn't say anything. It's just me acknowledging why people use those tactics against us. Doesn't make them right.

Glory Days;438316 wrote:there, fixed that for you.

You think there was an actual endgame to Vietnam?

I Wear Pants;438375 wrote:And I think you believe we have the right to kill anyone we want. You are a war monger.

That quote you pulled out doesn't say anything. It's just me acknowledging why people use those tactics against us. Doesn't make them right.

I believe we have the right to protect ourselves against anyone who threatens America or Americans. If that makes me a warmonger so be it. Your quote means quite alot. It says something very negative about our country and something very sympathetic toward the people who kill American servicepeople. And that is true no matter how you try to spin it. According to you people who kill American should not be labeled as bad guys. Some of them might be very nice in your view. In mine they should all rot in hell.

I wear pants wrote:So we have the right to just run roughshod over anyone and they are automatically the bad guys for using gorilla/brutal tactics that are their only real way to fight. We are too large an enemy for almost any single country to fight. Is everyone just supposed to bow to our will then?"

I did not say that. It is possible however to realize that one doesn't necessarily have to be an illogical demon to want to harm our troops. I still think that there are far better outlets for their negative feelings towards us and our troops then IEDs, etc. Not only would mass protests in those countries (Iraq, Afghanistan) likely prove far more effective at getting us out of the region (assuming that's what they want) but it would also not kill people who are just trying to help (our soldiers).

The people who orchestrate attacks on civilians I do agree are evil. No questions.

isadore: This isn't directly related to our discussion in this thread but it will sort of help me understand your viewpoints. What are your feelings towards the service members who tortured and raped Iraqi's in Abu-Ghraib?

Edit: Also, Iraq didn't threaten America. Well at least not legitimately.

I WEAR PANTS wrote:So we have the right to just run roughshod over anyone and they are automatically the bad guys for using gorilla/brutal tactics that are their only real way to fight. We are too large an enemy for almost any single country to fight. Is everyone just supposed to bow to our will then?"

65# “Nobody is winning in Afghanistan-General McChrystal. 5/17/2010. 11:42 PM
Total quote.


And you just keep on coming with these statements
If they orchestrate attacks on civilians they are evil, if they kill American soldiers they can still be good guys in your eyes. Do you tell your service people friends that. The people who are killing them are ok in your book;
Our service people acted incorrectly at Abu Ghrabib.
And that is your opinion about Iraq but
Iraq had invaded its neighbors, it had tried to build nuclear weapons. Its evil regime practiced genocide.

Glory Days;438316 wrote:there, fixed that for you.

You really don't need to fix my posts...it's sort of childlike really. Do you know who Macgeorge Bundy was? How about Robert McNamara? Let me help you out here. These men were two of the most recognized defense leaders in the LBJ administration, that pushed, prodded, shoved, pissed and moaned to escalate the Vietnam war...leading to 58,000 dead Americans...and another 100,000 or so that came home worthless rags from the devastation that wars cause. Many of whom were drafted into this worthless and senseless war.

McFarland wrote his mea culpa book about 10 years ago, begging for forgiveness, in being complicit in the needless deaths of American soldiers. But somehow you, WB, and others here know more about the bullshit in Vietnam than they did?

As for Bundy...he was also a military head honcho...and an even bigger Nam hawk than Bob Mac ever was...of extremely high ranking position. He was in the process of writing his own book...and mirroring the sentiments of McFarland...accepting the blame for all of the casualties. Unfortunately, he keeled over from a heart attack just months before his book was published.

Glory Days;438200 wrote:as he/they should. some of the information may seem harmless, but anytime you put information that was kept secret and could be used to harm US Soldiers or citizens, you should burn in hell. they got their headline story, and if they have any sort of concious, they better hope this information isnt used by the enemy.

Oh for God's sake. Yeah...let's keep the horrors of war hidden from the American people. We're all too busy at the mall anyway, ruffling through our fanny packs and buying needless shit made in China...why should we know as a citizenry that our kids have their legs and dicks blown off virtually everyday?

As for the enemy....you don't think the enemy already knows that the NATO alliance is killing innocent citizens? The American people don't really give a shit about what's really happening over there. And the warlord media that bows to the Obamites will never rock the boat.

Footwedge;438605 wrote:Oh for God's sake. Yeah...let's keep the horrors of war hidden from the American people. We're all too busy at the mall anyway, ruffling through our fanny packs and buying needless shit made in China...why should we know as a citizenry that our kids have their legs and dicks blown off virtually everyday?

As for the enemy....you don't think the enemy already knows that the NATO alliance is killing innocent citizens? The American people don't really give a shit about what's really happening over there. And the warlord media that bows to the Obamites will never rock the boat.

because that is what happens in war, its ugly. its the idiots who dont realize that kids are killed and lose legs, are the ones who then end up causing more kids to be killed and wounded by forcing the politicians to hold back like they did in Vietnam basically fighting a war with one arm tied behind their back trying to be politically correct about stuff.

and not all the information is about NATO killing civilians, there was information about how special ops operate etc. stuff the enemy can use. but who gives a shit about that, they got their 15 minutes of fame on the nightly news.

Glory Days;438785 wrote:because that is what happens in war, its ugly. its the idiots who dont realize that kids are killed and lose legs, are the ones who then end up causing more kids to be killed and wounded by forcing the politicians to hold back like they did in Vietnam basically fighting a war with one arm tied behind their back trying to be politically correct about stuff.

and not all the information is about NATO killing civilians, there was information about how special ops operate etc. stuff the enemy can use. but who gives a shit about that, they got their 15 minutes of fame on the nightly news.

No comment on McFarland and Bundy I see. 30 years down the road or so...we will be watching Petraus, Gates, and others write their memoirs....crying for mercy...as they acknowledge the bludgeoning of American soldiers on an unwinnable war.

Let me know when Obama describes what winning actually is over there.

Footwedge;438789 wrote:No comment on McFarland and Bundy I see. 30 years down the road or so...we will be watching Petraus, Gates, and others write their memoirs....crying for mercy...as they acknowledge the bludgeoning of American soldiers on an unwinnable war.

Let me know when Obama describes what winning actually is over there.

To kill/capture OBL(if he is still alive or in the region), members of Al-Qaeda, and the Taliban.

how come no one cried foul during the Korean War? when we were backing people who wanted to remain free from communism etc. 36,000 died in 3 years of fighting, yet there were no "pentagon papers", no one really protesting that war.