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The Cliff Lee Sweepstakes

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T

The Enforcer

Senior Member

110 posts
Jul 6, 2010 11:16 AM
if Minnesota really offered what is being reported then what is Seattle waiting for?

They will not get a better package than what the Twins are apparently offering so they should jump on that right now.

The Reds are no doubt interested, but they are going to wait and see what they have in Volquez before making any kind of decision.
Jul 6, 2010 11:16am
T

The Enforcer

Senior Member

110 posts
Jul 6, 2010 11:43 AM
According to Peter Gammons, you can throw Tampa into the mix.

He says that they may even put BJ Upton in a package for Lee.
Jul 6, 2010 11:43am
H

HeathAlum21

Senior Member

363 posts
Jul 6, 2010 12:43 PM
Mooney44Cards;412294 wrote:With as deep as we are in the minors, and as young as we are in the majors.....I'm willing to roll the dice.

Deep in the minors? According to whom? Chapman is a top 20 prospect (clearly not going anywhere), Alonso is probably top 50( not helping himself this year), and their next best prospect is probably Frazier( Nothing too exciting, maybe hovering around 70-80 rank).

I can only guess you are talking about the young players that are hovering between AAA and the majors(Wood and Heisey). Wood, a second round pick, is probably never going to be anything more than a career number three (at best, I would say he has back end of the rotation written all over him) and Heisey, a 17th round pick, is already 25 and will never be anything more than a 4th outfielder.

We don't have a deep minor league system,most likely being somewhere in the middle, with the top prospect a zero chance of being moved and very few lower tier prospects.
Jul 6, 2010 12:43pm
jordo212000's avatar

jordo212000

Senior Member

10,664 posts
Jul 6, 2010 1:10 PM
HeathAlum21;412554 wrote:Deep in the minors? According to whom? Chapman is a top 20 prospect (clearly not going anywhere), Alonso is probably top 50( not helping himself this year), and their next best prospect is probably Frazier( Nothing too exciting, maybe hovering around 70-80 rank).

I can only guess you are talking about the young players that are hovering between AAA and the majors(Wood and Heisey). Wood, a second round pick, is probably never going to be anything more than a career number three (at best, I would say he has back end of the rotation written all over him) and Heisey, a 17th round pick, is already 25 and will never be anything more than a 4th outfielder.

We don't have a deep minor league system,most likely being somewhere in the middle, with the top prospect a zero chance of being moved and very few lower tier prospects.

I think you are giving the other teams a little too much credit. The Reds have a very good farm system with a lot of nice young players. Many teams have no farm system at all to speak of (Houston Astros)
Jul 6, 2010 1:10pm
Mooney44Cards's avatar

Mooney44Cards

Senior Member

2,754 posts
Jul 6, 2010 1:17 PM
HeathAlum21;412554 wrote:Deep in the minors? According to whom? Chapman is a top 20 prospect (clearly not going anywhere), Alonso is probably top 50( not helping himself this year), and their next best prospect is probably Frazier( Nothing too exciting, maybe hovering around 70-80 rank).

I can only guess you are talking about the young players that are hovering between AAA and the majors(Wood and Heisey). Wood, a second round pick, is probably never going to be anything more than a career number three (at best, I would say he has back end of the rotation written all over him) and Heisey, a 17th round pick, is already 25 and will never be anything more than a 4th outfielder.

We don't have a deep minor league system,most likely being somewhere in the middle, with the top prospect a zero chance of being moved and very few lower tier prospects.

If Chapman, Alonso, and Frazier are the Reds only prospects in your mind, you really don't know much.
Jul 6, 2010 1:17pm
H

HeathAlum21

Senior Member

363 posts
Jul 6, 2010 1:22 PM
jordo212000;412572 wrote:I think you are giving the other teams a little too much credit. The Reds have a very good farm system with a lot of nice young players. Many teams have no farm system at all to speak of (Houston Astros)
I agree with what you're saying to a degree. I think they probably have around the 15th ranked farm system, with the top prospect guaranteed to stay with the team.
Jul 6, 2010 1:22pm
H

HeathAlum21

Senior Member

363 posts
Jul 6, 2010 1:27 PM
Mooney44Cards;412586 wrote:If Chapman, Alonso, and Frazier are the Reds only prospects in your mind, you really don't know much.

Well aren't you just the rude one? Those three prospects are the only three possible top 100 prospects they have in the minors. We are talking about acquiring Cliff Lee. Prospects that fall outside the top 100 in the minors are not likely to be of consequence. I think everyone agrees that Chapman is going no where. This leaves two top 100 prospects with one at the lower end. I also acknowledged guys that are currently in the majors, although you skipped that part of my post entirely. I would say Wood would fetch a fair price, but I think he is widely regarded as a back end of the rotation guy(Also said in my original post that you ignored) and Heisey would be a throw in guy at best.

This situation isn't what I would consider "deep".
Jul 6, 2010 1:27pm
Mooney44Cards's avatar

Mooney44Cards

Senior Member

2,754 posts
Jul 6, 2010 1:48 PM
Your post makes no sense if it was in response to my post saying how deep the reds are in the minors. Being deep in the minors has nothing to do with how many good players can be traded to Seattle but rather how the reds will still be fine even without Yonder Alonso. It's not as if we trade him we're suddenly empty in the minors. We'll be fine if we traded our 2 best hitters from the minors.
Jul 6, 2010 1:48pm
Azubuike24's avatar

Azubuike24

Senior Member

15,933 posts
Jul 6, 2010 1:48 PM
The Reds, at the top are NOT one of the best systems. They are decent. Not great, not bad. However, when you look a little deeper, both at the depth and at the current MLB level, you can see why many feel they are in great shape to make a big move.

They have a ton of players who have filled MLB spots and should continue to do so. Not only does that mean many players are blocked, but it means players are less likely to be rushed and expected to fill huge roles. They have many other players who other teams may consider to have some serious upside, even if they don't fit into the Reds' plans or may not be producing as such right now. Those guys are usually easier for organizations to part with, especially if they match up value-wise in a trade like this. For instance, if Yonder Alonso was tearing up the minors and looked to be on the verge of starting in MLB, I doubt the Reds would trade him AND more for Lee. Instead, he isn't, and while he still holds high value, it's not as tough to trade him. If they wait another year, his value could completely tank. This puts the Mariners in the decision-making seat.

As for Wood, I don't see the Reds moving him after what he has shown. The guy is a battler, a gamer, someone who is going to go about his business and if he can match that with stuff/talent, he will be fine. Unless another team covets him immensley, he isn't going anywhere.
Jul 6, 2010 1:48pm
V

vball10set

paying it forward

24,795 posts
Jul 6, 2010 1:54 PM
IMO he's heading back to Philly--no way he's going to Cinci...
Jul 6, 2010 1:54pm
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

Senior Member

35,632 posts
Jul 6, 2010 1:54 PM
HeathAlum21;412554 wrote:Wood, a second round pick, is probably never going to be anything more than a career number three (at best, I would say he has back end of the rotation written all over him)

What the hell are you basing this on? His 2 starts in the majors? He's had a 3 ERA essentially everywhere he's been, there's no reason to believe he cannot hover around there for his career with the Reds. And what is so bad about being the 3rd starter? I'd be happy as fuck if he was our third starter because that'd mean he's pretty fuckin good.
Jul 6, 2010 1:54pm
H

HeathAlum21

Senior Member

363 posts
Jul 6, 2010 2:31 PM
I'm a Reds fan too. However, a love fest about every player in the Reds organization gets the discussion no where. It's almost comical how defensive everyone gets when someone kindly questions a statement made.
The Reds have a decent minor league system, not a deep one. They have some nice pieces, but aren't at the top. As for Wood, it is based on observation. His stuff is solid, nothing more. Young pitchers usually initially have success when called to the Bigs. If he was our 3rd starter, I would be ecstatic too. I say a 3 is his absolute ceiling, but a number 4/5 seems more likely. In the prospect landscape, I say he is decent and probably not a long term solution.
Jul 6, 2010 2:31pm
Ironman92's avatar

Ironman92

Administrator

49,363 posts
Jul 6, 2010 3:30 PM
.....agree, but not willing to argue with others right now
Jul 6, 2010 3:30pm
N

norwalk

Senior Member

158 posts
Jul 6, 2010 10:54 PM
Hmmmm you think the Indians regret not going after Pedro when they had a chance? I think the Reds depth (meaning a lot of youth on current squard) makes their minors deeper. By that I mean, they have youth at a lot of positions so the need isn't immediate. Allowing their players now the opportunity to develop a little more.

We need an ace starter and if Edinson comes back strong, that's even more icing on the cake.
Jul 6, 2010 10:54pm
Mooney44Cards's avatar

Mooney44Cards

Senior Member

2,754 posts
Jul 7, 2010 2:41 PM
Scouts are saying that Juan Francisco would be the Reds best trade prospect, not Yonder Alonso. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/cliff-lee-rumors-wednesday.html

How is this possible? Our resident Reds minor league expert told us that Alonso, Chapman, and Frazier were the only Reds prospects worth anything. He must know more than major league scouts though, so I don't believe this one bit.

My thoughts? Hell, they can have both Alonso and Francisco, AND one of Wood, Maloney, and LeCure for Cliff Lee.
Jul 7, 2010 2:41pm
Azubuike24's avatar

Azubuike24

Senior Member

15,933 posts
Jul 7, 2010 4:21 PM
I saw that. Honestly, that doesn't necessarily say a lot about Francisco, but it says a lot more (or a lack thereof) about Yonder Alonso. I'd say it's pretty clear what Juan Francisco is...and I'm not sure it's an "impact bat" the M's covet.
Jul 7, 2010 4:21pm
T

The Enforcer

Senior Member

110 posts
Jul 7, 2010 7:05 PM
Seattle is telling interested teams that they want 2 Blue Chip Prospects plus another player in return.
Jul 7, 2010 7:05pm
S

sportswizuhrd

Senior Member

3,215 posts
Jul 8, 2010 2:38 AM
http://startelegramsports.typepad.com/foul_territory/2010/07/sources-rangers-talking-to-mariners-about-cliff-lee.html
A baseball source indicated that the Mariners have interest in several prospects and young players who have experience at the big-league level. Seattle has inquired about the availability of, among others, first baseman Chris Davis and catcher Jarrod Saltalamacchia.
Career in the big leagues.
Salty-240 games, .251 hitter, 23 homers, 94 RBI's, 247 K's, 794 AB's. 25 years old
Davis-208 games, .253 hitter,38 homers, 115 RBI's, 255 K's, 734 AB's. 24 years old
Jul 8, 2010 2:38am
Mooney44Cards's avatar

Mooney44Cards

Senior Member

2,754 posts
Jul 9, 2010 2:53 PM
Yankees are the heavy favorites now. The have a pretty decent sized offer on the table and are waiting on the Mariners to accept. Seattle will probably shop this offer around to the other teams in the running and see if they wanna match it or beat it. Oddly enough, I bet this deal gets done in the next few hours since Cliff Lee is scheduled to start tonight against......guess who? The Yankees!
Jul 9, 2010 2:53pm
voewoody's avatar

voewoody

Senior Member

280 posts
Jul 9, 2010 3:06 PM
Yanks would have quite the rotation... C.C., Lee, Pettite, Burnett, Hughes. Vasquez would immediately be traded to someone else looking for a starter..
Jul 9, 2010 3:06pm