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Humans are inherently aggressive OR goodness in humanity

Home ▸ Archive ▸ Serious Business ▸ Humans are inherently aggressive OR goodness in humanity
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

Senior Member

35,632 posts
May 18, 2010 4:14 PM
Thomas Hobbes vs. Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Which philosopher do you believe?

Do you believe humans are born with a "bad" instinct
or
Do you think they inherit these "bad" traits through society?
May 18, 2010 4:14pm
gorocks99's avatar

gorocks99

Senior Member

10,760 posts
May 18, 2010 4:16 PM
Hobbes. We're born with instincts that are neither bad nor good, but society has deemed them as such.
May 18, 2010 4:16pm
hasbeen's avatar

hasbeen

Excuse me, Flo?

6,504 posts
May 18, 2010 4:21 PM
It's both, as is most cases when comparing two polar opposites.

Society causes us to have a "chip on the shoulder," but we are also born with instincts that react to society.
May 18, 2010 4:21pm
gorocks99's avatar

gorocks99

Senior Member

10,760 posts
May 18, 2010 4:27 PM
Is the instinct of reacting to society necessarily, inherently, good or bad? Or, are the values constructed by society good and bad?
May 18, 2010 4:27pm
M

mattinctown

May 18, 2010 4:29 PM
Inherit through society
May 18, 2010 4:29pm
B

bamagirl

Senior Member

154 posts
May 18, 2010 4:36 PM
I am a Psychology Major...so I am not even going to begin to discuss my opinions. haha
May 18, 2010 4:36pm
I

I Wear Pants

Senior Member

16,223 posts
May 18, 2010 4:37 PM
gorocks99 wrote: Hobbes. We're born with instincts that are neither bad nor good, but society has deemed them as such.
May 18, 2010 4:37pm
hasbeen's avatar

hasbeen

Excuse me, Flo?

6,504 posts
May 18, 2010 4:40 PM
gorocks99 wrote: Is the instinct of reacting to society necessarily, inherently, good or bad? Or, are the values constructed by society good and bad?
Okay, I definitely agree with this.

Then we can argue if there is an instinct to kill, rob, etc. I'm not sure where I stand on that.
May 18, 2010 4:40pm
I

I Wear Pants

Senior Member

16,223 posts
May 18, 2010 4:48 PM
Not an instinct to do those particular actions but to do whatever it takes to survive/thrive. Which sometimes is seen to be killing, robbing, etc.
May 18, 2010 4:48pm
hasbeen's avatar

hasbeen

Excuse me, Flo?

6,504 posts
May 18, 2010 4:50 PM
I Wear Pants wrote: Not an instinct to do those particular actions but to do whatever it takes to survive/thrive. Which sometimes is seen to be killing, robbing, etc.
I think there are some people who have an instinct to kill. There are people don't kill to survive, they kill because they have blood lust.
May 18, 2010 4:50pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
May 18, 2010 4:51 PM
Learned behaviors. Society has incentives and disincentives for all types of behavior and like any animal humans react to those incentives.

Concepts like sharing and compassion I don't believe are instinctual and would also be among the first "good" behaviors to go when society/law breaks down.

That said, higher orders of animals organize and have a heirarchy and extended families, so you could make arguments that sharing and compassion ARE instinctual, to a degree, because grouping and group dynamics are instinctual to a degree.
May 18, 2010 4:51pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
May 18, 2010 4:54 PM
I don't think murder is an instinct. I'm not aware of animals who instinctually fight to the death.
May 18, 2010 4:54pm
FatHobbit's avatar

FatHobbit

Senior Member

8,651 posts
May 18, 2010 11:58 PM
All people are different. It's a mistake to try to make general statements that encompass everyone.
May 18, 2010 11:58pm
3reppom's avatar

3reppom

Senior Member

765 posts
May 19, 2010 4:21 AM
gut wrote: I don't think murder is an instinct. I'm not aware of animals who instinctually fight to the death.
Murder is a societal construct. the act of killing is an amoral act. Man A shoots and kills man B. Is that act in and of itself wrong? most people would say yes. Change the circumstances and say that man A shot and killed man B because man B threatened the wife and children of man A. Is that act in and of itself wrong? most people would say no.
May 19, 2010 4:21am
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
May 19, 2010 6:37 AM
Yes
May 19, 2010 6:37am
J

jmog

Senior Member

6,567 posts
May 19, 2010 9:03 AM
Inherently "bad" and have to choose to be good.
May 19, 2010 9:03am
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
May 19, 2010 9:06 AM
I'm actually with those that say we just have the instincts. Society says they're bad.
May 19, 2010 9:06am
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
May 19, 2010 9:13 AM
3reppom wrote:
gut wrote: I don't think murder is an instinct. I'm not aware of animals who instinctually fight to the death.
Murder is a societal construct. the act of killing is an amoral act. Man A shoots and kills man B. Is that act in and of itself wrong? most people would say yes. Change the circumstances and say that man A shot and killed man B because man B threatened the wife and children of man A. Is that act in and of itself wrong? most people would say no.
I'm not talking about the morality of it. Killing in self-defense is natural. Senseless killing is not. Morality is a human construct. Useless murder does not exist naturally in the animal kingdom, although there may are probably a few examples.
May 19, 2010 9:13am
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
May 19, 2010 9:19 AM
There are plenty of species that kill one another. There are animal species who kill their young if they are unfitting. There is a species where, if they only have one baby, will either kill it or abandon it b/c they desire to have litters.

Some species will even sell their young for beer.
May 19, 2010 9:19am
C

cbus4life

Ignorant

2,849 posts
May 19, 2010 9:45 AM
Rousseau
May 19, 2010 9:45am
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
May 19, 2010 10:26 AM
ernest_t_bass wrote: There are plenty of species that kill one another.
But not for any reason that can't be explained by Darwin. Murder, except in self-defense, is not natural. That's why dogs and chickens have to be trained to fight to the death.

Maybe you can make the argument that getting those wires crossed is a naturally unnatural occurrence. A homicidal animal probably won't live long enough to be observed in the wild. I suppose I can buy that.
May 19, 2010 10:26am
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
May 19, 2010 10:52 AM
There are reasons behind every murder. Psychological, etc. There are reasons.

I don't think there are many (if any) murders that go:

#1 - "Hey, how you doing?"
#2 - "Good, how are you?"
#1 - "Fine... whack! Haha, you're dead!"
#2 - "WTF?"

There is explanation behind everything. With humans, I think it is chemical, or perhaps divine. You throw emotions in there too. Jealousy. There are explanations.
May 19, 2010 10:52am
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
May 19, 2010 11:27 AM
ernest_t_bass wrote: There is explanation behind everything. With humans, I think it is chemical, or perhaps divine. You throw emotions in there too. Jealousy. There are explanations.
But that's not natural or instinctual, it's a learned behavior, generally speaking. Chemical imbalance, maybe, could be considered "naturally unnatural".

Killing your own kind is simply not natural or instinctual. In the animal kingdom, it's exclusively related to defense or survival. They don't fight to the death and you don't see two otherwise "friendly" lions just randomly go off and try to kill the other.
May 19, 2010 11:27am
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
May 19, 2010 11:32 AM
Mothers killing there young b/c they only had ONE and wanted a litter is neither "defense or survival."
May 19, 2010 11:32am
FatHobbit's avatar

FatHobbit

Senior Member

8,651 posts
May 19, 2010 11:35 AM
gut wrote:
ernest_t_bass wrote: There is explanation behind everything. With humans, I think it is chemical, or perhaps divine. You throw emotions in there too. Jealousy. There are explanations.
But that's not natural or instinctual, it's a learned behavior, generally speaking. Chemical imbalance, maybe, could be considered "naturally unnatural".

Killing your own kind is simply not natural or instinctual. In the animal kingdom, it's exclusively related to defense or survival. They don't fight to the death and you don't see two otherwise "friendly" lions just randomly go off and try to kill the other.
If you skip past the abortion stuff, there is a bit of info about animals that kill their own kind. http://en.allexperts.com/q/Wild-Animals-705/Animals-kill-young.htm
May 19, 2010 11:35am