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Footwedge
Posts: 9,265
Apr 7, 2010 3:27pm
One has to wonder exactly what "once in awhile" truly means. The only reason this video made it to public eyes was due to the overwhelming persistance of Reuters International.2quik4u wrote: now i'm not justifying what happened here, but you have to understand this is going to happen every once in awhile no matter what
Some believe that this was an isolated incident. My take, shooting randomly and killing randomly is a lot more pervasive in the operation of Iraqi Freedom (sic).
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Footwedge
Posts: 9,265
Apr 7, 2010 3:33pm
This part can be pushed into the mistake column. The second round of "engagement" defies all logical thinking in defeating the enemy. There was a wounded man, whether he is an insurgent or an innocent civilian...doesn't matter...... was being tended to by health care personnel from an unarmored bus..2quik4u wrote: http://blog.ajmartinez.com/2010/04/05/wikileaks-collateral-murder/
Between 3:13 and 3:30 it is quite clear to me, as both a former infantry sergeant and a photographer, that the two men central to the gun-camera’s frame are carrying photographic equipment. This much is noted by WikiLeaks, and misidentified by the crew of Crazyhorse 18. At 3:39, the men central to the frame are armed, the one on the far left with some AK variant, and the one in the center with an RPG. The RPG is crystal clear even in the downsized, very low-resolution, video between 3:40 and 3:45 when the man carrying it turns counter-clockwise and then back to the direction of the Apache. This all goes by without any mention whatsoever from WikiLeaks, and that is unacceptable.
Does the military have a policy of "take no prisoners"?
God help us all if the military views the second round of blasts as proper protocol.
Glory Days
Posts: 7,809
Apr 7, 2010 3:34pm
the only mistake made here was the reporters being with the enemy.
the iraqi army and police are not allowed to have RPGs, atleast where i was in baghdad. so target identification wouldnt have been hard here. plus many insurgents use cameras to video their attacks to get paid. and many times vans or trucks are used to transport insurgents and their dead after attacks, the van showing up is nothing new.
interesting how they say "attack on civilians". no, it was an attack on insurgents where civilians were killed accidentally. gotta love how they dont show the whole clip either, but what do you expect from someone called wikileaks. oh wait, the video is "as sure as anyone can of anything in real life".
the iraqi army and police are not allowed to have RPGs, atleast where i was in baghdad. so target identification wouldnt have been hard here. plus many insurgents use cameras to video their attacks to get paid. and many times vans or trucks are used to transport insurgents and their dead after attacks, the van showing up is nothing new.
interesting how they say "attack on civilians". no, it was an attack on insurgents where civilians were killed accidentally. gotta love how they dont show the whole clip either, but what do you expect from someone called wikileaks. oh wait, the video is "as sure as anyone can of anything in real life".
Glory Days
Posts: 7,809
Apr 7, 2010 3:41pm
unless those medical personnel were with the red cross or crescent moon, they are targets too. even a wounded insurgent can pull the trigger on an AK-47 and RPG.Footwedge wrote:This part can be pushed into the mistake column. The second round of "engagement" defies all logical thinking in defeating the enemy. There was a wounded man, whether he is an insurgent or an innocent civilian...doesn't matter...... was being tended to by health care personnel from an unarmored bus..2quik4u wrote: http://blog.ajmartinez.com/2010/04/05/wikileaks-collateral-murder/
Between 3:13 and 3:30 it is quite clear to me, as both a former infantry sergeant and a photographer, that the two men central to the gun-camera’s frame are carrying photographic equipment. This much is noted by WikiLeaks, and misidentified by the crew of Crazyhorse 18. At 3:39, the men central to the frame are armed, the one on the far left with some AK variant, and the one in the center with an RPG. The RPG is crystal clear even in the downsized, very low-resolution, video between 3:40 and 3:45 when the man carrying it turns counter-clockwise and then back to the direction of the Apache. This all goes by without any mention whatsoever from WikiLeaks, and that is unacceptable.
Does the military have a policy of "take no prisoners"?
God help us all if the military views the second round of blasts as proper protocol.
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Footwedge
Posts: 9,265
Apr 7, 2010 3:44pm
"It is my conviction that killing
under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
- Albert Einstein
under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
- Albert Einstein
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Footwedge
Posts: 9,265
Apr 7, 2010 3:48pm
View the end of the video. The injured man was completely unarmed and nary a threat to anyone....just a human being clinging to life.Glory Days wrote:
unless those medical personnel were with the red cross or crescent moon, they are targets too. even a wounded insurgent can pull the trigger on an AK-47 and RPG.
The unarmored bus that was shredded was merely transportation to the hospital.
Mr. 300
Posts: 3,090
Apr 7, 2010 3:53pm
Footwedge, have you ever served in the military?? Did you watch Band of Brothers???
Glory Days
Posts: 7,809
Apr 7, 2010 4:33pm
hahahaha the comedy is getting good in here. that injured man clinging to life would have happily pulled the pin on a grenade as US Soldiers walked up to him.Footwedge wrote:View the end of the video. The injured man was completely unarmed and nary a threat to anyone....just a human being clinging to life.Glory Days wrote:
unless those medical personnel were with the red cross or crescent moon, they are targets too. even a wounded insurgent can pull the trigger on an AK-47 and RPG.
The unarmored bus that was shredded was merely transportation to the hospital.
Glory Days
Posts: 7,809
Apr 7, 2010 4:34pm
"Stupid is as stupid does"- Forrest Gump.Footwedge wrote: "It is my conviction that killing
under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
- Albert Einstein
the lesson, dont walk around with insurgents.
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WebFire
Posts: 14,779
Apr 7, 2010 4:44pm
You don't know any of this. How do you know the van was transportation to a hospital? How do you know the men were unarmed? How do you know the van didn't have armed occupants?Footwedge wrote:View the end of the video. The injured man was completely unarmed and nary a threat to anyone....just a human being clinging to life.Glory Days wrote:
unless those medical personnel were with the red cross or crescent moon, they are targets too. even a wounded insurgent can pull the trigger on an AK-47 and RPG.
The unarmored bus that was shredded was merely transportation to the hospital.
You dont.
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Footwedge
Posts: 9,265
Apr 7, 2010 5:31pm
Never served in the military. Was drafted to do so for Vietnam, but Nixon ended the war after my first physical.Mr. 300 wrote: Footwedge, have you ever served in the military?? Did you watch Band of Brothers???
I admit it. I would have made a horrible soldier. I'm not into shooting and killing people. Never appealed to me in the least.
If the United States was truly threatened, which we haven't been since WWII and I was called on to actually defend our country, well that is a different story.
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Footwedge
Posts: 9,265
Apr 7, 2010 5:37pm
What is sad....you actually spent time over there....and as such....you would know that virtualy all civilians had to intermingle amongst insurgents.the lesson, dont walk around with insurgents.
Your tacit approval regarding this event is remarkable. You OK with what Lt. Calley did as well?
Declaring war and then invading a country does not permit one to commit cold blooded murder.
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Footwedge
Posts: 9,265
Apr 7, 2010 5:42pm
Apparently you didn't have the stomach to watch the video. The vehicle was a fuggin bus/van...not an armored vehicle.WebFire wrote:
You don't know any of this. How do you know the van was transportation to a hospital? How do you know the men were unarmed? How do you know the van didn't have armed occupants?
You dont.
So my assumption that this vehicle would have been headed to the hospital is wrong?
Where else do vehicles go after scraping off the ground a mortally wounded individual? The amusement park?
believer
Posts: 8,153
Apr 7, 2010 5:43pm
You're not insinuating that those who choose to serve are "into shooting and killing people" are you?Footwedge wrote:I admit it. I would have made a horrible soldier. I'm not into shooting and killing people. Never appealed to me in the least.
I served for 9 years and I didn't know one person in my military experience who was into shooting and killing people. But most were willing to do so if called upon by their commanders to do it.
2quik4u
Posts: 4,388
Apr 7, 2010 5:49pm
the fuck was 9/11 then?Footwedge wrote:Never served in the military. Was drafted to do so for Vietnam, but Nixon ended the war after my first physical.Mr. 300 wrote: Footwedge, have you ever served in the military?? Did you watch Band of Brothers???
I admit it. I would have made a horrible soldier. I'm not into shooting and killing people. Never appealed to me in the least.
If the United States was truly threatened, which we haven't been since WWII and I was called on to actually defend our country, well that is a different story.
believer
Posts: 8,153
Apr 7, 2010 5:52pm
Naw that doesn't count. The United States deserved that attack because of our imperialism, decadence, and infidel nature.2quik4u wrote:the fuck was 9/11 then?
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I Wear Pants
Posts: 16,223
Apr 7, 2010 5:53pm
You don't shoot people trying to medically help someone.
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I Wear Pants
Posts: 16,223
Apr 7, 2010 5:53pm
Iraq had nothing to do with that.believer wrote:Naw that doesn't count. The United States deserved that attack because of our imperialism, decadence, and infidel nature.2quik4u wrote:the fuck was 9/11 then?
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Footwedge
Posts: 9,265
Apr 7, 2010 6:03pm
Had nothing to do with 9-11. This topic doesn't even discuss the Iraq invasion. It's a specific event that the military tried desparately to cover up. Just like they did whenever Pat Tillman was murdered for his outspoken negative opinions regarding Iraq.2quik4u wrote:the fuck was 9/11 then?Footwedge wrote:Never served in the military. Was drafted to do so for Vietnam, but Nixon ended the war after my first physical.Mr. 300 wrote: Footwedge, have you ever served in the military?? Did you watch Band of Brothers???
I admit it. I would have made a horrible soldier. I'm not into shooting and killing people. Never appealed to me in the least.
If the United States was truly threatened, which we haven't been since WWII and I was called on to actually defend our country, well that is a different story.
Glory Days
Posts: 7,809
Apr 7, 2010 6:28pm
no, civilians get the fuck out of dodge when insurgents are going to attack. and they dont help insurgents, they try and stay away from them. we did not attack civilians in this incident, we attacked insurgents. you seem to be missing that.Footwedge wrote:What is sad....you actually spent time over there....and as such....you would know that virtualy all civilians had to intermingle amongst insurgents.the lesson, dont walk around with insurgents.
Your tacit approval regarding this event is remarkable. You OK with what Lt. Calley did as well?
Declaring war and then invading a country does not permit one to commit cold blooded murder.
insurgents dont have armored vehicles. they use regular pick up trucks and vans. civilians there dont help insurgents, and its pretty clear by the people carrying RPGs, they were insurgents since no Iraqi(even the police and army) are allowed to have RPGs.Footwedge wrote:Apparently you didn't have the stomach to watch the video. The vehicle was a fuggin bus/van...not an armored vehicle.WebFire wrote:
You don't know any of this. How do you know the van was transportation to a hospital? How do you know the men were unarmed? How do you know the van didn't have armed occupants?
You dont.
So my assumption that this vehicle would have been headed to the hospital is wrong?
Where else do vehicles go after scraping off the ground a mortally wounded individual? The amusement park?
there are plenty of videos out there showing insurgents attack or set up IEDs with van or truck. i guess we cant attack them because its not an armored vehicle?
Glory Days
Posts: 7,809
Apr 7, 2010 6:31pm
cover up? how come the reporter the video talks about that was there right after the incident and even mentioned it in his/her book did not go straight to the press with it 3 years ago when it happend?Footwedge wrote:Had nothing to do with 9-11. This topic doesn't even discuss the Iraq invasion. It's a specific event that the military tried desparately to cover up. Just like they did whenever Pat Tillman was murdered for his outspoken negative opinions regarding Iraq.2quik4u wrote:the fuck was 9/11 then?Footwedge wrote:Never served in the military. Was drafted to do so for Vietnam, but Nixon ended the war after my first physical.Mr. 300 wrote: Footwedge, have you ever served in the military?? Did you watch Band of Brothers???
I admit it. I would have made a horrible soldier. I'm not into shooting and killing people. Never appealed to me in the least.
If the United States was truly threatened, which we haven't been since WWII and I was called on to actually defend our country, well that is a different story.
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Footwedge
Posts: 9,265
Apr 7, 2010 6:31pm
You were trained to shoot people. That's one of the main things they teach you.believer wrote:
I served for 9 years and I didn't know one person in my military experience who was into shooting and killing people. But most were willing to do so if called upon by their commanders to do it.
Whether you were into it or not, that's what you were hired on to do. That's not for me. I've already admitted. I would be a horrible soldier.
ptown_trojans_1
Posts: 7,632
Apr 7, 2010 7:06pm
1. It's war, shit happens. Things slip through the cracks.
2. The conduct of the Apache pilots does not serve as an accurate representation of the U.S. military as a whole. The U.S. military has made clear that they are extremely cautious about causalities.
3. It is a sad, yet isolated incident that happens in the fog of war. I'm not blaming the reports, or the civilians, but it appears they did not follow proper procedures regarding press identifications. That doesn't justify the attack, but it should be noted.
4. The U.S. has been threatened, during the Cold War, with the threat of thermonuclear war from the Soviet Union. Deterrence was not always stable and there were many near misses.
5. 9/11 did not actually threaten the very existence of the U.S. It was a body blow yes, but did not threaten the very existence of what it is to be America.
2. The conduct of the Apache pilots does not serve as an accurate representation of the U.S. military as a whole. The U.S. military has made clear that they are extremely cautious about causalities.
3. It is a sad, yet isolated incident that happens in the fog of war. I'm not blaming the reports, or the civilians, but it appears they did not follow proper procedures regarding press identifications. That doesn't justify the attack, but it should be noted.
4. The U.S. has been threatened, during the Cold War, with the threat of thermonuclear war from the Soviet Union. Deterrence was not always stable and there were many near misses.
5. 9/11 did not actually threaten the very existence of the U.S. It was a body blow yes, but did not threaten the very existence of what it is to be America.
majorspark
Posts: 5,122
Apr 7, 2010 7:34pm
I bet it was a plot hatched by the dreaded neocons. What good does it do to throw out accusations like this without proof? There is no hard evidence to support this conspiracy theory.Footwedge wrote:Just like they did whenever Pat Tillman was murdered for his outspoken negative opinions regarding Iraq.
Glory Days
Posts: 7,809
Apr 7, 2010 7:49pm
when did Pat Tillman speak out against Iraq? must have missed that headline.