I understand Shoot and Sprawl's frustration but I hope a Coach never base's his decision on making sure that people who paid to watch get their money's worth.

Joe Daughtery gave a great explanation. There's a reason a team alternates who must report first and why Coaches send certain kids out to get certain match-ups.

KevinPetrella wrote: What good is a kid to me ...

since when is it about it what is good for a coach?

KevinPetrella wrote: We weigh kids in to take forfeits.

without any intention of letting the kid compete? that doesn't seem right. why even have the kid practice if he isn't going to compete? just go to band practice and find kids who weigh what you need to fill holes. ask them if they want to earn a varsity letter without breaking a sweat.

KevinPetrella wrote: You can't honestly say that any kid gets better after getting pinned or pinning after 30 seconds.

yes i can. losing is often the motivation to get better.
you can't honestly say that a healthy kid forfeiting a match makes him better?
healthy kids forfeiting doesn't jive with the kind of values i thought this sport taught kids.

KevinPetrella wrote: You can't honestly say that any kid gets better after getting pinned or pinning after 30 seconds.

yes i can. losing is often the motivation to get better.
you can't honestly say that a healthy kid forfeiting a match makes him better?
healthy kids forfeiting doesn't jive with the kind of values i thought this sport taught kids.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. Wrestling is all about having the heart to compete and the kids wouldn't be around still if they didn't so just let them wrestle the matches.

I'm with Mat Shark on this one.


KevinPetrella..."They will QUIT after their first year of losing 10-20+ times."

First off, with todays scheduling a kid can easily have 15 losses and a winning record. Secondly, very few first year wrestlers make it through a varsity season with fewer then 10 losses. I just opened last years' State program and looked at the page it opened up tp, the DII 145-pound bracket. There are TWO District champs with 10 and 12 losses, respectively. I didn't want that to be some sort of random lucky result, so I looked at some other weights: 152 (four wrestlers with double-digit losses), 160 (one double-digit, but six with 8 or more), 171 (five, including a sophomore with 16).


Bottome line, if 10-20 losses is going to make a kid quit, then he likley doesn't have the personality to be a successful wrestler anyway. I think most kids, when they start a sport like wrestling, take their lumps. I know I did. You learn, you work harder, you get better.

Mat Shark wrote: in my opinion, it's not much of a strategy. it gives up 6 points either way and it sends the wrong message to your team and embarresses the individual kid anyway.

it doesn't say much for the coach's ability to teach the sport either. i mean he's had the kid since at least november, and couldn't teach him enough to even let him take the mat.

Very well said !

What is the benefit to the child If you have a new freshman wrestler that has a 100% chance of getting pinned in under a minute? The coach is trying to get this child to enjoy the sport. Not hate wrestling. Some younger kids are mature enough to get beat like that, others are not. At least not yet. They will not come out next year or not try as hard in practice this year. Its like having a kid who is struggling in Algebra 1 take a Advanced Calculus test. Its just going to get the child to hate Math and not try.

-I'm talking about a kid that loses 10 to 20 times and never wins and is a FIRST year wrestler. I know it's a sport and it is competitive and people need to set goals but it also needs to be fun. Nowadays, if kids don't get stuff out of something right away, they are more likely to get discouraged. I'm generalizing, there are exceptions.

-Matshark...
where I said what good is it to me? That came out wrong and poor word choice, my fault... What good am I doing for the kid is better words

But you are twisting my words to a point of disbelief...
No where did I say taking forfeits makes that kid better and no where did I say I bring kids without ANY intention of wrestling them, and no where did I say that I make kids practice and don't let them compete.

You kind of are insinuating that we are grabbing kids just to fill in holes. Absolutely not the case.

However, I'll admit, We take forfeits if it helps the team win.

We wrestle those inexperienced kids on varsity if they can compete. I'm not going to put them up with a state qualifier, placer, etc. who will pin them in 30 seconds or less.

Also, according to you it doesn't say much for the coach's ability to teach the sport either. i mean he's had the kid since at least november, and couldn't teach him enough to even let him take the mat.
That's pretty harsh. I never thought I was the best coach, but I thought we always did a decent job teaching the sport and more importantly, life.

-Getting your butt kicked over and over again can motivate some people...but not everyone. Do we have kids on our team that are motivated to work harder after losing?? Absolutely. Will I let those kids wrestle? 100% of the time. If I have any kind of doubt, that the kid will respond positive, I won't keep throwing him in to get pinned after pinned.

-I guess you'd really have to experience our situation where we don't have a lot of kids. We try to mold these kids in to tough individuals not throw them in the fire right away and survival of the fitness.

-I do agree with you with more experienced kids (anyone more than a year's experience). They know enough, they will wrestle every match.

-I would never forfeit a kid at the JV level, that's is where they get experience to get better

Obviously, a few of us disagree. That's ok. We'll agree to disagree.

I know Bitter's had success with kids his way and I certainly think we are having success with kids our way.

Totally agree with Petrella on this one. Sidenote.....It's always easier from the stands............even when you PAY to get in.

Wrestle them. Take them to some JV tourney's instead of the varsity ones but wrestle them in duals if they weigh in. We baby kids enough these days anyway. I'm in the schools. I see what is going on and all about johnny and his confidence. I see this as a form of babying in wrestling. A good coach will talk his kid after and keep motivating and encouraging.

At this level, the reward is getting on the mat and actually doing the thing for real.

What if a kid has a 100% chance of getting pinned at the JV level? Wouldn't the same logic prevail?

We've all coached kids that started out bad, really bad. They lose and they lose and they lose...until they don't. With hard work 20 losses as a freshman can become 15 as a sophomore and 10 has a junior and 5 as a senior. Everyone who's coached has seen this happen, including most of the people in this conversation.

Bitterrunner-up wrote: What if a kid has a 100% chance of getting pinned at the JV level? Wouldn't the same logic prevail?

We've all coached kids that started out bad, really bad. They lose and they lose and they lose...until they don't. With hard work 20 losses as a freshman can become 15 as a sophomore and 10 has a junior and 5 as a senior. Everyone who's coached has seen this happen, including most of the people in this conversation.

JV and varsity competition is obviously different and I see your point of a pin is a pin. But I'm trying to get the kid pinned less.

Yes, everyone's see them go from 20 losses to 5, but everyone has also seen that kid who has great promise as a freshman and then quits.

Here is my view point. It's like business, the customer is always right. A wrestler quits, it shouldn't be me saying oh he's just a wimp. I should be thinking, man how could I have been a better coach to prevent this.

WGBplayer wrote: We baby kids enough these days anyway. I'm in the schools. I see what is going on and all about johnny and his confidence. I see this as a form of babying in wrestling. A good coach will talk his kid after and keep motivating and encouraging.

At this level, the reward is getting on the mat and actually doing the thing for real.

It's a fact, kids aren't as tough as they used to. Don't get me wrong. There are so tough as nails kids out there but you can't change how kids are today. We all have tried. You'll end up quitting as a coach because you are constantly fighting with this. Find a different way to make the kid better and work harder and become tougher.

We have a situation where a first time wrestler that is a freshman came out in the upper weights just to try to improve his conditioning and toughness for football. He has lost every varsity match by pins. He only wrestles some varsity duals. He has wrestled some frosh/jv tourneys and he is getting a couple of w's here and there. Just to stay in the practice room is great for this kid!
The coach won't put him out against state or district qualifying kids because he and the Dad don't want to get the kid hurt. I totally understand and agree with that. The heavier weights are a bit different than the lower ones.
Also what good would it be to get the opposing teams crowd all in a frenzy with a pin and gain momentum when the kid a no shot at getting out of the first period.
There's different situations to take into account.

On the light weight side I can see it happen at 103 also if the kid is new and under weight.

I really hate when this happens. In my early years, I was coaching at a school that had only had a team for three years. Needless to say we struggled and had few athletes with experience. A local powerhouse team comes to town and weighs in around 60 kids to my 11 or 12 can't remember exact numbers. The thing is we only had one wrestler that had a chance of winning that night in front of our home fans. Out of the 60 kids the other team weighed in I would say about 10 of them could have wrestled against our best kid, however they decided to just forfeit instead. The only thing I can say is I guess it would have been tough to be the only kid to lose, but it was also tough watching all I my beginners suffering against their talented squad. I guess I should have just forfeited all of the other classes to save my athletes any embarrassment. Could have just phoned it in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've got to get in. Last night we split two mats, varsity on one, JV/freshmen on the other. I didn't see excatly what went down on JV mat, but we have a sophomore who was 1-22 last year on JV. He really struggled. Still, great kid. This year, back out and much improved, probably 10-12 on JV. He gives some and gets some, but he is growing and learning.

The best part. We have a new freshmen who is a little over-matched and very new to the sport. He is having a very rough year, only one win, many, many pins against. He loses and goes to the wall, upset at the result. The aforementioned sophomore gets up and goes to him. Tells him about what a year a difference makes. Tells him to keep working. Tells him about his own journey. the freshmen talks to me on the bus and tells me about this; he is encouraged to wrestle in the off-season and get better.

I am of the mindset that it is every coach's privilege to forfeit a match if it benefits their team. I don't like it, but that is each team's privilege. However, you can't bottle what happened between those two reserve wrestlers. Losses build character and motivate. JMO.

If a kids a little under the weather but wants to wrestle if it will make the difference in the outcome. Not knowing the weight the dual will start at, the coach could weigh the kid in then hope his weight class is near the end of the dual.

Knightflyer, that's pretty awesome to witness.

But I'll disagree with you on one part. Losing reveals character.

Kevin...I don't believe the customer is always right.

Bitter,
I smiled reading that. I almost knew you would type that. The key is making them believe they're right haha

knightflyer150 wrote: ...
The best part. We have a new freshmen who is a little over-matched and very new to the sport. He is having a very rough year, only one win, many, many pins against. He loses and goes to the wall, upset at the result. The aforementioned sophomore gets up and goes to him. Tells him about what a year a difference makes. Tells him to keep working. Tells him about his own journey. the freshmen talks to me on the bus and tells me about this; he is encouraged to wrestle in the off-season and get better.
...

...the best part of this sport indeed. It's changing his life. Thanks for sharing this.

That sophomore has the making of a captain.

I can think of several good, or at least sensible reasons to weigh in a healthy kid and forfeit later. First, let's say it is a single dual, to be contested one hour from weigh-ins:

1. The kid is borderline healthy, perhaps recovering from injury, and, upon drilling to warm up, simply does not feel his knee/elbow/shoulder, etc. will hold up, regardless of the opposition.

2. The kid gets injured severely during drilling/shaking hands/putting on his singlet/walking down from the stands, etc. You may laugh, but I have had kids get hurt doing all sorts of things.

3. The kid is inexperienced to the point that he may not be able to defend himself against the given opposition and risks injury because of the style/technique, or personality of the opponent. There are individuals from other schools (all of you coaches know them) who will not exercise their "powers" responsibly. If I have a first year kid who is going to wrestle an individual who I know simply tries to hurt people, I may sit him. It would be difficult for a responsible, intelligent adult to argue against this.

4. The kid is set to wrestle a girl. I would never make a kid wrestle a girl. Don't misconstrue this one bit. I like girls wrestling. I am all for it. I personally would wrestle a girl and would encourage my wrestlers to do the same. I would, however, never make them do so.

These, to me, are four great reasons to enter a healthy wrestler and forfeit. In a dual tournament with 4 or five matches, I can think of several more.

One and two seem reasonable to me, three and four do not. For #3, your issue is with the official. It's his job to keep the wrestlers safe. Many wrestlers go out there with the intention of hurting their opponent. Legally putting your opponent in pain is a great way to score points and open up opportunities to score. Pain, both inflicting it and feeling it is part of the sport. Now if a kid is doing things that are illegal with the intent to injure, then it's the official's job to stop illegal technique and even stop legal technique when it is potentailly dangerous.

#4 I just don't get. Either you're my varsity wrestler at the weight or you're not. You don't get to choose who you wrestle and who you don't.

HMMM...

For #3 bitter, there are times when a referee is unable or unwilling to keep a kid safe. I had an instance a few years back when a ref (who is now retired) watched as my kids opponent had a two-on-one and started swinging his other arm and hitting my kids elbow repeatedly against the joint. It was obvious to everyone (even the opposing coach) that he was trying to hurt my kid. Yet the ref watched and did nothing. In this case, it is MY responsibility to keep the kids safe, plain and simple. And about the "legally putting your opponent in pain" thing, you are preaching to the choir. I enjoy making other people hurt. I like to see an opponent mentally break because he is in legally inflicted pain. I am talking about trying to injure another wrestler. I do agree that this is a very very rarely acceptable scenario. Heck, I sent an 0-16 first year wrestler out to wrestle Jesse Dong, so it has to be rare!!

As for #4, I do see your point, and quite honestly, I personally feel the same way. However, I feel like it is such a difficult area that I don't feel comfortable putting my morals and values on the table and making another person adhere with no exceptions. I understand that there are sometimes religious and moral questions that people have about this issue, and I would respect those concerns if they were addressed. This being said, In 11 years, I have never had a wrestler refuse to wrestle a girl hopefully because I teach them that it is not a boy or girl but simply a body that we are trying to defeat regardless.

Good points all around Snugglyhippo. Man, it's not every day that you get well thought out and reasonable discussion on a topic on these forums. I wonder if it will stay this way?

No...I expect "HACK THE BONE!!!" chants anytime now...but it will be good while it lasts I suppose. Luckily for us, those individuals who yell "squeeeeeeeze!!!" and "Kill him John-Bob!!" are typically not the most computer literate.