
Writerbuckeye
Posts: 4,745
Mar 17, 2010 5:06pm
and it's a one-sided debate that is pushing medical students to the side of government-run services vs. the free market.
It's very typical, in my view, of the leftist indoctrination that permeates all of academia.
Here is an excellent op/ed piece by two OSU medical students (I know because one of them posts on an OSU sports board) about how they are routinely pushed toward socialized medicine with no opposing view presented in their classrooms.
It's very typical, in my view, of the leftist indoctrination that permeates all of academia.
Here is an excellent op/ed piece by two OSU medical students (I know because one of them posts on an OSU sports board) about how they are routinely pushed toward socialized medicine with no opposing view presented in their classrooms.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/03/17/dr-cl-gray-universal-health-care-medical-students-progressives-sicko/Updated March 17, 2010
The Battle Over Health Care At America's Medical Schools
By Tom and Coral Tieu C.L. Gray, M.D.
- FOXNews.com
The real future of American health care lies in the minds of our medical students. Under the cloak of compassion, a culture that believes government-run medicine defines quality care now permeates U.S. medical schools.
The voters thought they had spoken. First in the Virginia and New Jersey gubernatorial elections—then again in the Massachusetts Senate race. When Scott Brown ran as the forty-first vote against government-run health care -- and won -- sixty one percent of the nation breathed a sigh of relief --according to a Rasmussen poll on February 11, 2010.
Game over? Not even close. Even if voters stop Washington’s current push toward universal health care, the battle for government-run medicine is far from over. The real future of American health care lies in the minds of our medical students. Under the cloak of compassion, a culture that believes government-run medicine defines quality care now permeates U.S. medical schools.
Progressives know they don’t have to win the current legislative battles in Washington. The key is to capture the American university… and wait. As medical students are taught to embrace the concept of government-run health care, the tipping point will inevitably come. With a new breed of physician to lead the charge, the rest will fall into place.
My wife and I are both medical students. Our institution makes no attempt to hide its bias in classroom instruction. From the first day of student orientation we are taught America’s current health care system is faulty because we spend more than any other country on health care yet our infant mortality rates lag behind other nations. However, there is no discussion of the data. Different countries use different definitions of a “live birth” -- making a direct comparison between countries impossible.
We are constantly told that American health care does not provide for all and that “universal health care” will solve these problems without any downside. However, we never hear that in America, 90.1% of women diagnosed with breast cancer are still alive five years later—but only 79% of their European counterparts survive this long. (That's according to Lancet Oncology from September 2007.)
We repeatedly hear that Canadians live longer than Americans. However, we are never told that when the data is adjusted for motor vehicle accidents and homicide, the United States leads the world in longevity. Shouldn’t this statistic be taught as well?
The excellence of the American system produces the majority of medical innovations. But this goes unmentioned. Instead we receive lectures entitled, “What America Can Learn From the Canadian Medical System,” “Universal Health Care,” and “Health Care Reform.” Typical bullet points in these lectures compare spending on AIDS in foreign countries versus spending on the Iraq war, as if they were direct substitutes. Is this academic freedom? Or is this viewpoint discrimination?
Explanations to the “correct” answers on test questions also contain liberal thought. Our medical school gave the left-leaning organization -- Physicians for Human Rights -- an official school e-mail address that enables them to send letters asking us to lobby our congressional representatives for liberal health care policies. Patient-centered organizations such as Physicians for Reform are never invited to present an alternative viewpoint.
We were recently asked to watch and review Michael Moore’s movie “Sicko.” What was missing? The assignment of a movie that lays out the opposing point of view.
Medical school curricula should include material on delivery of health care and provide honest viewpoints from both sides using the best data available. I can count numerous examples of the school providing a liberal perspective, but cannot cite one single example where a more conservative position was offered. This steady drumbeat of the progressive worldview is reshaping the minds of America’s future physicians. Ironically, as medical students, we are taught to hold the patient’s best interest in the highest regard. Yet, at the same time, we are taught that more government intervention between the physician and the patient is desirable. Unfortunately, history teaches us the two are often incompatible.
The assault on the time honored patient-physician relationship is happening on many fronts. But the unseen battle within the medical school classroom might be the most important of them all. Will the physicians of tomorrow even recognize the Hippocratic Oath and continue to serve the well-being of the individual patient? Or will our healers become pawns of a government-run health care system and ultimately become servants of the State?
Nationalized health care has long been the Holy Grail for the secular progressive. To reach this end, the left is now doing a textbook end-around of the American voter to achieve this prize. What is happening in the medical school classroom might render what happens in Washington meaningless, no matter how We the People vote.
Tom & Coral Tieu are medical students. C. L. Gray, M.D. is president of Physicians for Reform.

believer
Posts: 8,153
Mar 18, 2010 4:05am
When ObamaKare passes via whatever closed-door parliamentary trickery the Unholy Trinity devises to ramrod this irresponsible bill into law against the will of the people, rest assured that our taxes & health care costs will increase, quality of health care will suffer, and health care professionals will - indeed - become pawns of the State.Will the physicians of tomorrow even recognize the Hippocratic Oath and continue to serve the well-being of the individual patient? Or will our healers become pawns of a government-run health care system and ultimately become servants of the State?

HitsRus
Posts: 9,206
Mar 18, 2010 7:13am
We are already pawns of insurance companies aided and abetted by the liberal notion that everybody has a right to free healthcare. Not only are fees dicated, but what treatments and medications are given are usually affected by what an insurance company covers. A lot of doctors are resigned to the fact that healthare has become all about coverage and not about medical necessity. Government involvement is only the next step.
B
Bigdogg
Posts: 1,429
Mar 19, 2010 1:54pm
A more important issue is what role dose the AMA have in regulating the number of qualified people who get into med school? It's a matter of supply and demand, The AMA dose not want too many doctors in this country.

LJ
Posts: 16,351
Mar 19, 2010 3:54pm
I don't know anyone who was qualified for med school who hasn't been accepted to one.Bigdogg wrote: A more important issue is what role dose the AMA have in regulating the number of qualified people who get into med school? It's a matter of supply and demand, The AMA dose not want too many doctors in this country.
On the other hand there are 8350 people who won't get veterinary degrees from Ohio State in 4 years.
It takes a special person to put in the work that has to be done to become a Doctor and I don't believe for 1 minute that the AMA is trying to create a shortage. You wanna lower Doctor salaries? The first place to start is the $200,000+ of debt they leave school with.

believer
Posts: 8,153
Mar 19, 2010 4:03pm
Sounds like e a personal choice to me.LJ wrote:You wanna lower Doctor salaries? The first place to start is the $200,000+ of debt they leave school with.
Are you suggesting that the taxpayer forgive the med student debt in exchange for lower physician's fees? Good luck selling that one.

LJ
Posts: 16,351
Mar 19, 2010 4:13pm
You just want to argue don't you? My post was showing why Doctors make what they do. If you don't want them to make as much then you need to look at their school debt. But think of it this way, vet school costs close to $200,000 and average salary for a first year vet is $48,000. Now are you going to tell me that vets make too much and that their prices are artificially high? Or are you going to admit that part of the reason that the costs are so high is because of the overhead of getting the training needed in order to provide treatment?believer wrote:Sounds like e a personal choice to me.LJ wrote:You wanna lower Doctor salaries? The first place to start is the $200,000+ of debt they leave school with.
Are you suggesting that the taxpayer forgive the med student debt in exchange for lower physician's fees? Good luck selling that one.
And of course going to med school is a personal choice, but that number is the reality of what these med students have to pay. The debt is not the choice, it's the reality of the situation.

Little Danny
Posts: 4,288
Mar 19, 2010 4:28pm
You want to hear something crazier. The average salaray of a primary care physician is $201,548. That might sound like a lot of money to you and me, but considering physicians have on average $130,000 in debt after leaving medical school that is not a whole heck of a lot. We are already experiencing a shortage of primary care physcians and it is only going to get worse. Young medical students are choosing to get into specialties that compensate you more such as neurology, oncology, plastic surgery, etc.

LJ
Posts: 16,351
Mar 19, 2010 4:29pm
Residency pays ~55k... eekLittle Danny wrote: You want to hear something crazier. The average salaray of a primary care physician is $201,548. That might sound like a lot of money to you and me, but considering physicians have on average $130,000 in debt after leaving medical school that is not a whole heck of a lot. We are already experiencing a shortage of primary care physcians and it is only going to get worse. Young medical students are choosing to get into specialties that compensate you more such as neurology, oncology, plastic surgery, etc.

LJ
Posts: 16,351
Mar 19, 2010 4:29pm
and BTW the average debt is $156k+

HitsRus
Posts: 9,206
Mar 19, 2010 8:42pm
keep in mind also that 'residency' is typically a 60+ hour work week.LJ wrote:
Residency pays ~55k... eek

HitsRus
Posts: 9,206
Mar 19, 2010 9:28pm
Bigdogg wrote: A more important issue is what role dose the AMA have in regulating the number of qualified people who get into med school? It's a matter of supply and demand, The AMA dose not want too many doctors in this country.
eh, not so much. The AMA will protect it's turf like any other professional group or union. All in all however, it is much more public service oriented than say the Teamsters or other 'labor' groups. The big issue about a 'shortage of doctors' (and you can include dentists too) is funding has dried up. Tuition for medical school, ($200K) is only a fraction of what it costs to train a doctor. The great majority of that funding comes from state support or private sources.
The current trend is for a greater number of highly trained auxillaries (e.g. nurse anesthetists, physician assistants)being overseen by a reduced number of doctors to service the public health care needs.
Been to the doctor or dentist lately?...chances are you were seen by several auxillary personnel and the doctor came in and spent 5 minutes with you. (It never used to be that way.) People see that and think the doc is making a ton of money seeing all those patients. In reality he's making the same...he's just moving around quicker. His fees have been hammered by medicaid/medicare...PPOs, HMO and all sorts of deeply discounted managed care plans.
I had a discussion about 'Obamacare" witha physcian friend of mine...and he was less concerned with the effect of government on his finances (the government is just another insurance company), and more concerned with what the huge boondoggle would do to the country has a whole.

LJ
Posts: 16,351
Mar 19, 2010 9:33pm
I have a friend that is doing an orthopedic surgery residency and works around 60 hours per week and makes $52kHitsRus wrote:keep in mind also that 'residency' is typically a 60+ hour work week.LJ wrote:
Residency pays ~55k... eek
I have another friend that is doing a general ER residency and works about 80 hours per week and makes 58k

majorspark
Posts: 5,122
Mar 19, 2010 9:49pm
I sure hope I never end up in the ER with a doc that is in his 80th hour.LJ wrote: I have another friend that is doing a general ER residency and works about 80 hours per week and makes 58k

LJ
Posts: 16,351
Mar 19, 2010 9:54pm
majorspark wrote:I sure hope I never end up in the ER with a doc that is in his 80th hour.LJ wrote: I have another friend that is doing a general ER residency and works about 80 hours per week and makes 58k
it includes on call. So they are sleeping some of that time but still there

HitsRus
Posts: 9,206
Mar 19, 2010 10:02pm
majorspark wrote:I sure hope I never end up in the ER with a doc that is in his 80th hour.LJ wrote: I have another friend that is doing a general ER residency and works about 80 hours per week and makes 58k
If you 'ended up' in the ER before, you probably already have. Actually I think things are getting better in that regard, than in the past....it used to be pretty standard rigour for a first year resident.

believer
Posts: 8,153
Mar 20, 2010 4:49am
About as much as you enjoy threatening to close down threads. Touche'?LJ wrote:You just want to argue don't you?
No question...But the cost of training good doctors is an unfortunate reality of health care. Does it need to be paid for? Yes but through free market fees not government subsidies and/or ObamaKare.LJ wrote:Or are you going to admit that part of the reason that the costs are so high is because of the overhead of getting the training needed in order to provide treatment?
Yes it is and it comes with the territory. My wife is studying to become a PA and while already being tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt, we're not expecting the Feds to come to our debt rescue. Whether that debt is covered by the taxpayers or by fees covered by free market insurance premiums we end up paying for it. The right and moral way of doing it is the latter.LJ wrote:And of course going to med school is a personal choice, but that number is the reality of what these med students have to pay. The debt is not the choice, it's the reality of the situation.
B
BCSbunk
Posts: 972
Mar 20, 2010 10:26am
Yeah just like our military are pawns of the state!believer wrote:When ObamaKare passes via whatever closed-door parliamentary trickery the Unholy Trinity devises to ramrod this irresponsible bill into law against the will of the people, rest assured that our taxes & health care costs will increase, quality of health care will suffer, and health care professionals will - indeed - become pawns of the State.Will the physicians of tomorrow even recognize the Hippocratic Oath and continue to serve the well-being of the individual patient? Or will our healers become pawns of a government-run health care system and ultimately become servants of the State?

LJ
Posts: 16,351
Mar 20, 2010 2:16pm
Funny that you guys think I enjoy dealing with the bullshit that this forum dishes out. If it wasn't for me there wouldn't be a politics forum. Justin didn't want one.believer wrote:About as much as you enjoy threatening to close down threads. Touche'?LJ wrote:You just want to argue don't you?
Funny, I never ADVOCATED the gov't stepping in. I even said that. I said that debt is a large reason that prices are what they are. Leave your "right and moral way" out of this. Take your straw man elsewhere.believer wrote: Yes it is and it comes with the territory. My wife is studying to become a PA and while already being tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt, we're not expecting the Feds to come to our debt rescue. Whether that debt is covered by the taxpayers or by fees covered by free market insurance premiums we end up paying for it. The right and moral way of doing it is the latter.

believer
Posts: 8,153
Mar 20, 2010 3:42pm
Gosh LJ...Thank you...thank you! Justin may not have wanted it but it's a fairly frequented forum...not to mention there no more "bullshit" found in the politics forum than any of the other forums where it's fine to slam, disparage, and post nonsensical crap. It's just odd that anything goes on the other forums but political banter needs "monitored." But I digress.LJ wrote:Funny that you guys think I enjoy dealing with the bullshit that this forum dishes out. If it wasn't for me there wouldn't be a politics forum. Justin didn't want one.
Or what? You'll close down the thread because I expressed a political opinion?LJ wrote:Leave your "right and moral way" out of this. Take your straw man elsewhere.

LJ
Posts: 16,351
Mar 20, 2010 4:11pm
Because the politics forum is my forum and I don't want that crap in here. If you can't handle it, leave.believer wrote:Gosh LJ...Thank you...thank you! Justin may not have wanted it but it's a fairly frequented forum...not to mention there no more "bullshit" found in the politics forum than any of the other forums where it's fine to slam, disparage, and post nonsensical crap. It's just odd that anything goes on the other forums but political banter needs "monitored." But I digress.LJ wrote:Funny that you guys think I enjoy dealing with the bullshit that this forum dishes out. If it wasn't for me there wouldn't be a politics forum. Justin didn't want one.
LJ wrote:Leave your "right and moral way" out of this. Take your straw man elsewhere.
I've never done that, but hey...keep talking! If all you can do is attack the poster and not their argument, I suggest you find another forum.believer wrote: Or what? You'll close down the thread because I expressed a political opinion?

ts1227
Posts: 12,319
Mar 20, 2010 9:07pm
It's sad... there's essentially one rule that is rather simple to adhere to in this forum. PROVIDE SOME SUBSTANCE.
Believer and Quaker just cannot pull it off, EVER.
What's worse? One of them represents my hometown, and the other represents my alma mater.
Believer and Quaker just cannot pull it off, EVER.
What's worse? One of them represents my hometown, and the other represents my alma mater.

majorspark
Posts: 5,122
Mar 20, 2010 9:32pm
Just because a poster does not agree with your political ideology does not mean they never have any substance. Of course not all posts will contain substance. The two posters you named have provided "substance" as you say on several occasions.ts1227 wrote: It's sad... there's essentially one rule that is rather simple to adhere to in this forum. PROVIDE SOME SUBSTANCE.
Believer and Quaker just cannot pull it off, EVER.
What's worse? One of them represents my hometown, and the other represents my alma mater.
What substance have you provided?
I will tell you what's worse is someone who shits on their fellow man who grew up in the same home town or attended the same college just because they have a different political ideology.

ts1227
Posts: 12,319
Mar 20, 2010 9:49pm
I've started a few threads here.
I provide a link, and an informed opinion (be it right or wrong), NOT TALKING POINTS AND NOTHING ELSE.
I'm not saying Believer and Quaker are wrong, but they have supplied nothing to prove that they have done any thinking themselves. (AKA FOLLOW FORUM RULES)
I may not be "correct", but at least I pull my head out of my favorite political figure's ass long enough to think for myself and follow forum protocol.
I provide a link, and an informed opinion (be it right or wrong), NOT TALKING POINTS AND NOTHING ELSE.
I'm not saying Believer and Quaker are wrong, but they have supplied nothing to prove that they have done any thinking themselves. (AKA FOLLOW FORUM RULES)
I may not be "correct", but at least I pull my head out of my favorite political figure's ass long enough to think for myself and follow forum protocol.

LJ
Posts: 16,351
Mar 20, 2010 10:46pm
ok,let's get back on topic.