cbus4life wrote:

pmoney25 wrote: Well what do you believe happened?

You really have two answers for this, I am guessing you will say you don't know or that the Universe Randomly appeared out of thin air for no reason and out of all the known universe the only place where the conditions were perfect enough for intelligent life was one litte planet.

When you really think about it, Does one answer sound anymore crazy then the other?

Um, i don't know if you got all of that out of my post, but i was basically saying that they are both really hard to reconcile. I don't know, i honestly don't. Guess i just don't have the faith.

I don't know what happened. I don't have the faith or knowledge to go one way or another.

How did you get that i would say that the universe would randomly appear, when i basically said how that didn't seem plausible either.

Or, is this not directed at me?

I think we posted at the same time. Not directed at you.

jmog wrote:

ManO'War wrote: I don't need any bullet points.

There is no real argument, since the basis of your "belief" is a book of made up stories.

That's what makes the whole thing so comical, that people have actually been brainwashed into believing this crap like it is real, and then base their whole lives around it.

Please show proof that this book is all a group of "made up stories".

There are many MANY parts of the Bible, even though it wasn't meant to be a historical document, that has been proven to be true through archeology.

You made a claim, the burden of proof is on you. Show me how you know for a fact that its a book of made up stories.

No, the burden of proof is on anyone that believes in a god, since they are the one making outrageous claims with no proof to back it up.

Not true, MoW amd Jmog

I happen to think that purple is the best color, ever. But I don't have to prove it for somebody to agree or disagree with me.

I believe that there is a God. I don't have to prove it.
It's my truth.

Just like your absence of belief is your truth.

Well see, now I know you're crazy, because we all know that red is the best color.

jmog wrote:

ManO'War wrote: But the Bible depicts it in the clouds....above earth.

That's the problem with religion, they change the story everytime one of them gets shot down. Back then nobody could reach the clouds, so they put Heaven up there. As soon as man reached the clouds, then it became a "non-physical" place.

It's all a shell game.

Show me one verse where the Bible says heaven (God's dwelling place) is "in the clouds".

I'd love to see it, as a student of the Bible.

Psalms 18:9 (NIV) He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet.

Psalms 97:2 (NIV) Clouds and thick darkness surround him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne

Daniel 7:13 (NIV) "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

The clouds of Heaven? Pretty clear there.

The bible refers to heaven as up. Which is not a dimension on a spherical object. If I stand here and point up and someone in Australia points up we are pointing in opposite directions.

And of course hell is down but where is down? into the center of the earth? There is a devil down there? with demons?

And of course the christians need apologists to explain all this which contradicts an all powerful god because I am in no way to be held responsible for the lies of lying sinful humans and I have no way of knowing they are telling the truth so I must read the bible on my own and an all powerful being would make it abundantly clear and not ambigious which it is not, which is why there are 38000 different denominations out there.

ManO'War wrote: Well see, now I know you're crazy, because we all know that red is the best color.

AHAHAHAHA!!!

I just knew that would come up!

I agree with ya though. Seeing as how I'm a Big RedS fan myself

[/quote]

Psalms 18:9 (NIV) He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet.

Psalms 97:2 (NIV) Clouds and thick darkness surround him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne

Daniel 7:13 (NIV) "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

The clouds of Heaven? Pretty clear there.

The bible refers to heaven as up. Which is not a dimension on a spherical object. If I stand here and point up and someone in Australia points up we are pointing in opposite directions.

And of course hell is down but where is down? into the center of the earth? There is a devil down there? with demons?

And of course the christians need apologists to explain all this which contradicts an all powerful god because I am in no way to be held responsible for the lies of lying sinful humans and I have no way of knowing they are telling the truth so I must read the bible on my own and an all powerful being would make it abundantly clear and not ambigious which it is not, which is why there are 38000 different denominations out there.
[/quote]

First, As you know, Clouds are not exclusive to Earth. So saying that he lives in the clouds or clouds are surrounding him does not mean that he sits above the Clouds on Earth.

Second, you are really stretching on the Up vs. Down argument. Is that really that best you have? I feel that has more to do with the symbolic meanings of the words. Up(Ascend), Down(Descend) . The word up tends to be more positive, inspiring, hopeful than the word down which tends to be more depressing and negative.

Third, I never get the argument that why hasn't God shown himself or proved his existence. For one, if you believe then he already does that but if you are wanting God or Jesus, Allah, Buddah whoever you want to pick to just come out of nowhere and say "Here I am" then that would defeat the whole purpose in my opinion. God wants everyone to believe in him but only will take those that want to believe on their own accord. Do it because you want to, not because you have to.

BCSbunk wrote:

jmog wrote:

ManO'War wrote: But the Bible depicts it in the clouds....above earth.

That's the problem with religion, they change the story everytime one of them gets shot down. Back then nobody could reach the clouds, so they put Heaven up there. As soon as man reached the clouds, then it became a "non-physical" place.

It's all a shell game.

Show me one verse where the Bible says heaven (God's dwelling place) is "in the clouds".

I'd love to see it, as a student of the Bible.

Psalms 18:9 (NIV) He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet.

Psalms 97:2 (NIV) Clouds and thick darkness surround him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne

Daniel 7:13 (NIV) "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

The clouds of Heaven? Pretty clear there.

The bible refers to heaven as up. Which is not a dimension on a spherical object. If I stand here and point up and someone in Australia points up we are pointing in opposite directions.

And of course hell is down but where is down? into the center of the earth? There is a devil down there? with demons?

And of course the christians need apologists to explain all this which contradicts an all powerful god because I am in no way to be held responsible for the lies of lying sinful humans and I have no way of knowing they are telling the truth so I must read the bible on my own and an all powerful being would make it abundantly clear and not ambigious which it is not, which is why there are 38000 different denominations out there.

If this is the level of your understanding of 'religion' it is no wonder you are so confused. You seem to be hung up on human descriptions and depictions of heaven and God and using that as a basis to discredit.
Jesus Christ, whom Christians believe to be God's physical manifestation here on earth spoke in parables. So too are the 'stories' of the Bible....likely told to the level of the audience in a way they could understand. The importance lies in the message, not in the literal story.

I don't think that if Genesis began,,,
"In the beginning, there were quarks and sub atomic particles....."
pre-civilized man would have understood. Hell, as advanced as we are scientifically today(LOL) God would have a hard time getting origins thru to the vast majority of college educated adults, let alone some of the pea brains posting on this thread.


So things like the location of heaven, clouds, 'up', physical descriptions of hell, and the devil really aren't relevant in the literal sense.

BCSbunk wrote:

Psalms 18:9 (NIV) He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet.
[\quote]
There were clouds on his feet says nothing about heaven being in the clouds.

Psalms 97:2 (NIV) Clouds and thick darkness surround him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne
[\quote]
This can also easily be understood as cosmic clouds and the "darkness" being the darkness of space.

Daniel 7:13 (NIV) "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

Again, the clouds of heaven, meaning there are possibly clouds IN heaven, but not saying heaven is IN THE CLOUDS. Two totally different things.

I can make smoke clouds easily in my house with enough water vapor, dry ice, you name it but that doesn't mean my house is in the clouds.

The bible refers to heaven as up. Which is not a dimension on a spherical object. If I stand here and point up and someone in Australia points up we are pointing in opposite directions.

And of course hell is down but where is down? into the center of the earth? There is a devil down there? with demons?

And of course the christians need apologists to explain all this which contradicts an all powerful god because I am in no way to be held responsible for the lies of lying sinful humans and I have no way of knowing they are telling the truth so I must read the bible on my own and an all powerful being would make it abundantly clear and not ambigious which it is not, which is why there are 38000 different denominations out there.

Ever think the "up" and "down" are not cardinal directions but spiritual directions?

Was your last paragraph a question or just a tirade?

SMH

HitsRus wrote:

BCSbunk wrote:

jmog wrote:

ManO'War wrote: But the Bible depicts it in the clouds....above earth.

That's the problem with religion, they change the story everytime one of them gets shot down. Back then nobody could reach the clouds, so they put Heaven up there. As soon as man reached the clouds, then it became a "non-physical" place.

It's all a shell game.

Show me one verse where the Bible says heaven (God's dwelling place) is "in the clouds".

I'd love to see it, as a student of the Bible.

Psalms 18:9 (NIV) He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet.

Psalms 97:2 (NIV) Clouds and thick darkness surround him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne

Daniel 7:13 (NIV) "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

The clouds of Heaven? Pretty clear there.

The bible refers to heaven as up. Which is not a dimension on a spherical object. If I stand here and point up and someone in Australia points up we are pointing in opposite directions.

And of course hell is down but where is down? into the center of the earth? There is a devil down there? with demons?

And of course the christians need apologists to explain all this which contradicts an all powerful god because I am in no way to be held responsible for the lies of lying sinful humans and I have no way of knowing they are telling the truth so I must read the bible on my own and an all powerful being would make it abundantly clear and not ambigious which it is not, which is why there are 38000 different denominations out there.

If this is the level of your understanding of 'religion' it is no wonder you are so confused. You seem to be hung up on human descriptions and depictions of heaven and God and using that as a basis to discredit.
Jesus Christ, whom Christians believe to be God's physical manifestation here on earth spoke in parables. So too are the 'stories' of the Bible....likely told to the level of the audience in a way they could understand. The importance lies in the message, not in the literal story.

I don't think that if Genesis began,,,
"In the beginning, there were quarks and sub atomic particles....."
pre-civilized man would have understood. Hell, as advanced as we are scientifically today(LOL) God would have a hard time getting origins thru to the vast majority of college educated adults, let alone some of the pea brains posting on this thread.


So things like the location of heaven, clouds, 'up', physical descriptions of hell, and the devil really aren't relevant in the literal sense.

Nice way to move those goalposts. The bible and many of its stories have been shown to be not true so what does the one with cognitive dissonance do? Why of course he moves the goalposts to the realm of the supernatural.

Spirits? What is a spirit? What is spiritual? Please provide a complete ontology of this concept you speak of.

I want primary attributes please what is a spirit?

You have one camp who says it is literal and another who claim it is allegorical writings. This is what I mean by amibigious and that is not a guess that is true.

jmog wrote:

BCSbunk wrote:

Psalms 18:9 (NIV) He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet.
[\quote]
There were clouds on his feet says nothing about heaven being in the clouds.

Psalms 97:2 (NIV) Clouds and thick darkness surround him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne
[\quote]
This can also easily be understood as cosmic clouds and the "darkness" being the darkness of space.

Daniel 7:13 (NIV) "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

Again, the clouds of heaven, meaning there are possibly clouds IN heaven, but not saying heaven is IN THE CLOUDS. Two totally different things.

I can make smoke clouds easily in my house with enough water vapor, dry ice, you name it but that doesn't mean my house is in the clouds.

The bible refers to heaven as up. Which is not a dimension on a spherical object. If I stand here and point up and someone in Australia points up we are pointing in opposite directions.

And of course hell is down but where is down? into the center of the earth? There is a devil down there? with demons?

And of course the christians need apologists to explain all this which contradicts an all powerful god because I am in no way to be held responsible for the lies of lying sinful humans and I have no way of knowing they are telling the truth so I must read the bible on my own and an all powerful being would make it abundantly clear and not ambigious which it is not, which is why there are 38000 different denominations out there.

Ever think the "up" and "down" are not cardinal directions but spiritual directions?

Was your last paragraph a question or just a tirade?

Ever think you are making shit up? What is a spiritual direction?

Oh now I get it. The bible is in secret code that only True christians can understand and decifer because it sure does not say that it is a "spiritual" direction. (whatever that even means)

The last paragraph is just the truth and shows how ambigious the bible is but I know of course you are one of those "True" Christians who knows how to decifer things like UP and DOWN are really spiritual directions. That made me chuckle.

I am sure you being a True Christian you know which parts of the bible are literal and which ones are metaphorical, funny how two True Christians cannot agree. I guess Satan controls one of you because one is lying and we know who the father of lies is (unless of course the whole Satan Hell thing is a metaphor too)

So I guess that the scientists/archeologists who have studied and then verified that some of the Biblical occasions could very well have happened according to the realm of science... that those people have no "cognitive dissonance"?

How do the bashers reconcile that? Or is it something that they just ignore?

BCSbunk wrote>

"Ever think you are making shit up? What is a spiritual direction?

Oh now I get it. The bible is in secret code that only True christians can understand and decifer because it sure does not say that it is a "spiritual" direction. (whatever that even means) "



Hahaha...you posted those two sentences right after each other! Whose making shit up?

Again you attack man made depictions and artists renditions....a small segment of Christianity, etc.. to try make the point that all religion is nonsense.

"Cognitive dissonance"?. I'm surprised you know that term coming from one guilty of making generalizations from non important specific minutiae. ...Certainly a logical fallacy, not very scientific, but very revealing as to where you are coming from.

Again you seem to be hung up on "true Christianity" as if that is the only religion.....and why there are differences in religions or denominations.
Tell me...what's the best way to get to Columbus? ....Interstate 71? or interstate 70? Rte 23?, the back roads?....maybe fly in from Bangkok?...Taxi from Dayton?

I realize this may be a difficult concept for you to grasp....so I put it in a way you could understand. Maybe the analogy is not 100% correct, but you get the point. Somewhat like the stuff you are attacking in your argument, it is simply a way to get a difficult point across to a lesser intellect.
Note for the lesser intellects....I'm NOT saying that God is Columbus and I-71 is Christianity.

CenterBHSFan wrote: So I guess that the scientists/archeologists who have studied and then verified that some of the Biblical occasions could very well have happened according to the realm of science... that those people have no "cognitive dissonance"?

How do the bashers reconcile that? Or is it something that they just ignore?

I don't deny that, and i find it incredibly interesting.

But, then, it is also hard to reconcile the fact that archaeologists/scientists have also not been able to determine/find evidence for many other events depicted in the bible.

Just an incredibly difficult thing to prove, for both sides.

Evidence can prove or disprove. Lack of evidence can do neither.

Yep, can't argue with that.

One of the traps Christians can run in to when debating with secular humanists is we start to argue for faith, which by definition illogical, in logical terms. Faith is by definition a belief in the unseen. I have no problems with undertanding the argument that a person pointing up in Austrailia is pointing a different direction than a person who is pointing up in the U.S. or that dinosaurs used to walk the Earth.
The problem with the sciences is the fact that all theories eventually break down at the extreme edges of the theory. At that point, faith has to take over to fill in the gaps.
Science and faith are not mutually exclusive. They are two different and comlpementary playing fields.
On to teaching in public schools. I majored in a scientific discipline. I wrote a paper on this argument. I have no problem with evolution being taught in schools. I have a huge problem with evolution being taught as fact in schools. It is a theory with huge holes. Evolution and Big Bang require a lot of faith. Seculars call it "interpretation" or "extrapolation", but it is a belief system. So is Intelligent Design. The school systems should decide and help their students understand the strengths and weaknesses in the theories. After that, it is up to the parents to help their children understand and think for themselves.

Squirmydog wrote: . I have no problems with undertanding the argument that a person pointing up in Austrailia is pointing a different direction than a person who is pointing up in the U.S. or that dinosaurs used to walk the Earth.

Maybe I'm confused, but how does dinosaurs walking the Earth factor into the conversation?

HitsRus wrote: BCSbunk wrote>

"Ever think you are making shit up? What is a spiritual direction?

Oh now I get it. The bible is in secret code that only True christians can understand and decifer because it sure does not say that it is a "spiritual" direction. (whatever that even means) "



Hahaha...you posted those two sentences right after each other! Whose making shit up?

Again you attack man made depictions and artists renditions....a small segment of Christianity, etc.. to try make the point that all religion is nonsense.

"Cognitive dissonance"?. I'm surprised you know that term coming from one guilty of making generalizations from non important specific minutiae. ...Certainly a logical fallacy, not very scientific, but very revealing as to where you are coming from.

Again you seem to be hung up on "true Christianity" as if that is the only religion.....and why there are differences in religions or denominations.
Tell me...what's the best way to get to Columbus? ....Interstate 71? or interstate 70? Rte 23?, the back roads?....maybe fly in from Bangkok?...Taxi from Dayton?

I realize this may be a difficult concept for you to grasp....so I put it in a way you could understand. Maybe the analogy is not 100% correct, but you get the point. Somewhat like the stuff you are attacking in your argument, it is simply a way to get a difficult point across to a lesser intellect.
Note for the lesser intellects....I'm NOT saying that God is Columbus and I-71 is Christianity.

You still have not answered the question. What is a spirit?

Do not throw meaningless non-cognitive terms around as if they have primary attributes and have been documented.

I also am not making generalizations I am making a specific claim. You are doing it now. You seem to act as though you have the answer with your claim that I am attacking man made depictions and artists renditions. Of course I am.

So can you point me the way to "gods" depiction? You talk with a god and know the right way? OR are there many ways? Where do I find a gods depiction? Can you point me the way to a god so I can talk with it?

Also of note many religions contridict one another which renders one useless and meaningless. Someone is telling the truth and the other is lying.

True Christian is what many people claim not I. When I bring up a point they answer many times with that is not "true" Christianity as though they have the answers and the other 37,999 denominations are incorrect.

You have not one shred of empirical evidence of spirits, souls or gods, nor can you give an ontology of them.

I am waiting for someone anyone to give the primary attributes of spirits, souls and gods.

What is a spirit?

What is a soul?

What is a god?

Those are all non-cognitive terms unless they have complete ontologies with primary, secondary and relative attributes.

I want to know what a god is, not what it does or has done.

There are three attributes of existants. Primary secondary and relational. Secondary and relational attributes are dependent on Primary attributes to be meaningful.

So I await to find out what are the primary attributes of spirit, soul and gods.

CenterBHSFan wrote: So I guess that the scientists/archeologists who have studied and then verified that some of the Biblical occasions could very well have happened according to the realm of science... that those people have no "cognitive dissonance"?

How do the bashers reconcile that? Or is it something that they just ignore?

Please be more specific what bible occasions could have very well happened? That there was a Jerusalem? That places in the bible were real places? Sure there are just like in Anne Rices novel of Lestat New Orleans is a real place, does that make Lestat real? Does that make Vampires real?

There are many outragous claims in the bible that are hand waved away by the oh so meaningful god works in mysterious ways non answer.

Joshua did not stop the sun in the sky so he could continue to slaughter. First off the sun does not go around the earth which that absolutely implies.

A world wide flood does not have the evidence to back it up.

A man (jonah) was not swallowed by a giant fish and survived for 3 days in its belly.

Virgin births with humans do not happen. Zombies do not happen. There are many made up mythological tales in the bible.

BCSbunk wrote>

"I am waiting for someone anyone to give the primary attributes of spirits, souls and gods.

What is a spirit?

What is a soul?

What is a god?

Those are all non-cognitive terms unless they have complete ontologies with primary, secondary and relative attributes.

I want to know what a god is, not what it does or has done.

There are three attributes of existants. Primary secondary and relational. Secondary and relational attributes are dependent on Primary attributes to be meaningful.

So I await to find out what are the primary attributes of spirit, soul and gods. "


Ask your teacher or google it. Seriously dude....you are going to ask for 'ontology' but base your arguements on ripping into biblical stories like Jonas and the whale? 1st year philosophy student! You want answers to what is a soul, God or spirit....Google it! You want empirical evidence to something that is intuitive? Good luck with that. Descibe 'greenness' to a man who never had sight.....and so you remain trapped in your little empirical world, limited by your physical senses. Empiricism is so overrated. It is soooo self limiting. Seriously man...I'm not doing your homework for you.

Maybe when science can create life from non-life, we'll be able to better define spirit or soul.

What is the spark that creates actual life from non-life? Is it comparable to the big bang, only on a minute scale?

jmog wrote:

Squirmydog wrote: . I have no problems with undertanding the argument that a person pointing up in Austrailia is pointing a different direction than a person who is pointing up in the U.S. or that dinosaurs used to walk the Earth.

Maybe I'm confused, but how does dinosaurs walking the Earth factor into the conversation?

Young Earthers have to either justify dinosaurs co-existing with humans or explain how fossils got there.

HitsRus wrote: BCSbunk wrote>

"I am waiting for someone anyone to give the primary attributes of spirits, souls and gods.

What is a spirit?

What is a soul?

What is a god?

Those are all non-cognitive terms unless they have complete ontologies with primary, secondary and relative attributes.

I want to know what a god is, not what it does or has done.

There are three attributes of existants. Primary secondary and relational. Secondary and relational attributes are dependent on Primary attributes to be meaningful.

So I await to find out what are the primary attributes of spirit, soul and gods. "


Ask your teacher or google it. Seriously dude....you are going to ask for 'ontology' but base your arguements on ripping into biblical stories like Jonas and the whale? 1st year philosophy student! You want answers to what is a soul, God or spirit....Google it! You want empirical evidence to something that is intuitive? Good luck with that. Descibe 'greenness' to a man who never had sight.....and so you remain trapped in your little empirical world, limited by your physical senses. Seriously man...I'm not doing your homework for you.

Google it? I have googled it many times and the answer is there is no answer. All three are non-cognitive spirit, soul and gods.

I am not trapped however you live in the land of make believe with no empirical evidence at all. You belief in spirits souls and gods is no different than leprachauns and tooth fairies because they are also non-cognitive and they do not have complete ontologies.

As I thought, you would not have an answer because you don't know.

Also I did not base ontology on anything other than the fact that spirit and soul and gods are non-cognitive.

I am limited by my physical senses? You are kidding right? Joking around? What extra sense or way do you have so you are not limited to the physical senses?