Well, only 30% of the Stimulus was spent in '09; ergo if something saved us from a depression, it was not the Stimulus.

Obama can fool a lot of people (he already did), but he can't fool all the people.

Bigdogg wrote:

fish82 wrote:

QuakerOats wrote:

Bigdogg wrote: The majority of the so called experts agreed that without some kind of stimulus package, the US economy was going to collapse. Since I doubt that we have any people on here that were smart enough to be consulted with before Bush and both party's agreed to pass the initial stimulus package, I'll think I take their word on it.

Many are confusing the TARP with the 'Stimulus'. The TARP (signed by Bush) may have prevented a banking collapse. The Stimulus (signed by Obama) is a massive spending boondoggle and is one large transfer payment, nothing more / nothing less. Change we can believe in ........

^^^^ This.

TARP may have saved the financial system from collapse. Maybe.

The "stimulus" didn't save us from jack shit. That's a fact.

Sorry it's not a fact its YOUR humble opinion. I was once told when the experts disagree the rest of the idiots are free to have an opinion. I do not think anyone came prove one way or the other TARP or The stimulus program prevented a world economic collapse at this point in time. That's something that needs some time to evaluate and one year is way too early to make an accurate assessment. I think it is something that will be studyed and debated for a long time.

You are correct about TARP but there was also stimulus package under Bush

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-5140

And at least Bush wasn't stupid enough to claim that it saved us from a depression.

So just so I'm following you...the "stimulus" completely failed in it's primary goal to keep unemployment under 8%, yet we're supposed to believe there's a chance that repaving some roads kept us from sliding into the 2nd Great Depression. Seriously???

I'll say it again. The stimulus didn't save us from jack shit.

I wish you people the best of luck in selling the idea that it did, though.

fish82 wrote:

Bigdogg wrote:

fish82 wrote:

QuakerOats wrote:

Bigdogg wrote: The majority of the so called experts agreed that without some kind of stimulus package, the US economy was going to collapse. Since I doubt that we have any people on here that were smart enough to be consulted with before Bush and both party's agreed to pass the initial stimulus package, I'll think I take their word on it.

Many are confusing the TARP with the 'Stimulus'. The TARP (signed by Bush) may have prevented a banking collapse. The Stimulus (signed by Obama) is a massive spending boondoggle and is one large transfer payment, nothing more / nothing less. Change we can believe in ........

^^^^ This.

TARP may have saved the financial system from collapse. Maybe.

The "stimulus" didn't save us from jack shit. That's a fact.

Sorry it's not a fact its YOUR humble opinion. I was once told when the experts disagree the rest of the idiots are free to have an opinion. I do not think anyone came prove one way or the other TARP or The stimulus program prevented a world economic collapse at this point in time. That's something that needs some time to evaluate and one year is way too early to make an accurate assessment. I think it is something that will be studyed and debated for a long time.

You are correct about TARP but there was also stimulus package under Bush

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-5140

And at least Bush wasn't stupid enough to claim that it saved us from a depression.

So just so I'm following you...the "stimulus" completely failed in it's primary goal to keep unemployment under 8%, yet we're supposed to believe there's a chance that repaving some roads kept us from sliding into the 2nd Great Depression. Seriously???

I'll say it again. The stimulus didn't save us from jack shit.

I wish you people the best of luck in selling the idea that it did, though.

I not selling anything. You are claiming the stimulus had no effect on the economy and was designed to reduce unemployment. I stated that nobody knows what (if any) impact it has because it's too early to tell.

I am a little confused about your statement that the current administration has claimed that the stimulus package was designed to reduce the unemployment rate in one year. Please cite your source and I hope you can come up with something better then that you heard it from Glen Beck.

^^He didn't say reduce unemployment, just that it wouldn't go above 8%.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/21/AR2009062101859.html

queencitybuckeye wrote:

Bigdogg wrote: The majority of the so called experts agreed that without some kind of stimulus package, the US economy was going to collapse.

At one time, the majority of experts believed the Earth to be flat. A majority opinion is not necessarily the correct one. As often as not, it isn't.

Way to cite completely unrelated examples.
If you really want to say that you know how to manage the global and national economy better than most of the vaunted experts in economics then be my guest.

Bigdogg wrote:You are claiming the stimulus had no effect on the economy and was designed to reduce unemployment. I stated that nobody knows what (if any) impact it has because it's too early to tell.

Actually BHO claimed it would keep unemployment from rising above 8%. It's now nearly 10%. That's a fail.

Throwing federal tax dollars at economic and social ills has rarely proven an effective way to cure the sickness. It's like giving a candy bar to a hungry child. It may suppress the hunger for a moment but it only makes the kid run around the house uncontrollably for an hour and then they crash & burn. When they wake up they're still hungry.

It may be too early to tell if BHO's Porkulus Sammich has kick started a national sugar buzz, but I have a hunch that when the bill comes due you can rest assured that the sammich will have little or no economic nutritional value in the long haul.

I Wear Pants wrote:

queencitybuckeye wrote:

Bigdogg wrote: The majority of the so called experts agreed that without some kind of stimulus package, the US economy was going to collapse.

At one time, the majority of experts believed the Earth to be flat. A majority opinion is not necessarily the correct one. As often as not, it isn't.

Way to cite completely unrelated examples.

It was an example showing that something being the majority opinion is not evidence of it being correct. It's completely related to this situation. The number of experts on each "side" doesn't influence what is correct in fact.

If you really want to say that you know how to manage the global and national economy better than most of the vaunted experts in economics then be my guest.

Strawman. I made no such claim. I said that even if most of the experts (an unproven claim BTW) share one opinion, it does not somehow make it the correct opinion. If you want to debate me on any point I actually make as opposed to shit you make up, then be my guest.

dwccrew wrote: I'm going to take my money and run, just like Steve Miller said to in his song. What country should I go to?

Amsterdam.......Hookers and drugs, my friend. Hookers and drugs. And they say we're the most free. HA!!!!

That seems to be the stance of most of the democrat party, "Oh, the experts say so so it has to be true." It's like they think these people have nothing to benefit from the decisions they make. Time to wake up people, our federal government is a self-serving, corrupt entity.

Strapping Young Lad wrote:

dwccrew wrote: I'm going to take my money and run, just like Steve Miller said to in his song. What country should I go to?

Amsterdam.......Hookers and drugs, my friend. Hookers and drugs. And they say we're the most free. HA!!!!

Good call.

The stimulous package was an artificial way to stimulate the economy on a temporary basis. True wealth and prosperity comes from the manufacture of goods and services here at home. Since the big money..i.e. oligolopic International Corporations place higher profits and larger markets overseas as much higher priorities, and the largest segment of the private sector has pretty much told the American public to go fuck themselves.

Until this basic problem is resolved, the pain from full blown depression will be bandaided by government expansionism in both the welfare and warfare entities. That way, the politicians can kick the can down the road to the next group of politicians and corporatists, who will do the exact same thing.

Eventually the system will implode, both economically and monetarily, and the Americans that are still alive will have no recourse for having lost their wealth and had their way of life stolen...as the perpetrators of the generation bridging ponzi scheme will all be dead and buried.

bigmanbt wrote: Yeah, let's hear him say that in the next few years. Worst is still to come folks, worst is still to come.

Our sales books and forecasts disagree with you. 2009 was abysmal and we shouldn't be anywhere close to that in 2010.

Footwedge wrote: The stimulous package was an artificial way to stimulate the economy on a temporary basis. True wealth and prosperity comes from the manufacture of goods and services here at home. Since the big money..i.e. oligolopic International Corporations place higher profits and larger markets overseas as much higher priorities, and the largest segment of the private sector has pretty much told the American public to go fuck themselves.

Until this basic problem is resolved, the pain from full blown depression will be bandaided by government expansionism in both the welfare and warfare entities. That way, the politicians can kick the can down the road to the next group of politicians and corporatists, who will do the exact same thing.

Eventually the system will implode, both economically and monetarily, and the Americans that are still alive will have no recourse for having lost their wealth and had their way of life stolen...as the perpetrators of the generation bridging ponzi scheme will all be dead and buried.

WOW....We agree except for one thing; I firmly believe that what goes around, comes around.

As Corporate America continues to ship jobs overseas and Big Government continues to spend beyond our means, sooner or later it will be very difficult for Amerika's Welfare Culture to buy cheap Chinese-made goods. If and when our economic system melts down rest assured so will the world economy.

It actually may take a major meltdown to bring things back to equilibrium. Until then keep your hands and feet inside the ride at all times and enjoy your day at Cedar Point!

Armchair quarter backs are my favorite kind of people. It sounds like we have a lot of experts on here that think they can do a better job then the current administration has done with the economy in just a years time. Maybe you all should all grow some kahunas and run for political office. The stimulus program was designed to jump start the economy, not to solve the problems created over the past 8 years of the Bush administration.

Bigdogg you're a huge hypocrite.

Blaming the past 8 years as the reason Obama's been terrible? Sounds pretty armchair QB to me.

Bigdogg wrote: Armchair quarter backs are my favorite kind of people. It sounds like we have a lot of experts on here that think they can do a better job then the current administration has done with the economy in just a years time. Maybe you all should all grow some kahunas and run for political office. The stimulus program was designed to jump start the economy, not to solve the problems created over the past 8 years of the Bush administration.

1) Some of us are too young to run, but rest assured someday I will.
2) The stimulus was designed to keep unemployment from rising above 8%. It failed. Public sector jobs are nice, but they do very little in contributing to financial growth in our country.
3) Nice "armchair QBing" by blaming everything on Bush (he did suck). Obama needs to stop blaming things on Bush and just fix the problems.

bigmanbt wrote:
3) Nice "armchair QBing" by blaming everything on Bush (he did suck). Obama needs to stop blaming things on Bush and just fix the problems.

By doing what?

Footwedge wrote:

bigmanbt wrote:
3) Nice "armchair QBing" by blaming everything on Bush (he did suck). Obama needs to stop blaming things on Bush and just fix the problems.

By doing what?

Well it certainly doesn't start with giving people free money. I know you are a proponet of deficit spending in times of need to jump start the economy, but it didn't work for FDR and it isn't working now. After both New Deals, the country was still in the depression in 1936. It took rebuilding half of Europe to pull us out of that.

The government for years has told us to live within our means, it's time for them to do the same. It's almost juvenile to spend as much as they have without having the actual capital to back their expenditures.

You know me, I am for getting rid of entitlements (in a systematic, phase out way) or at least raising the age of SS to mid 70's to reflect the average lifespan. I would pull out of almost all countries and close nearly every base in our empire. I'd end the pointless and seemingly endless wars we are in. No more foreign aid for countries, we still need domestic aid and to pay off our deficit. I would also close down many departments and limit gov't size as well. Public sector jobs contribute very little to GDP, so get rid of them and let the private sector take over those areas. Lower business tax rates so small businesses can afford to survive (maybe even protective tariff our goods, though I would have to research the positives and negatives of that in today's world).

These are all things that will limit gov't spending and fix the problem, which right now is the deficit and unemployment rate. And I'm just 23 and have less experience than Obama (first time anyone's ever heard someone has less experience than Obama huh, lol) and don't have near the information he has at his disposal.

lhslep134 wrote: Bigdogg you're a huge hypocrite.

Blaming the past 8 years as the reason Obama's been terrible? Sounds pretty armchair QB to me.

So you are saying the previous 8 years have no relevance? Lets be fair and at least admit it is. However, if Obama's policy's do not lead us where we need to go the I will be the first to cast my vote for somebody else. I seriously doubt that most of the people on here would ever vote for Obama regardless. so who is the hypocrite on here?

Pointing out Obama's flaws and not being willing to vote for him is not hypocrisy.

Most of us have simply stated the FACT that Obama told us we had to pass the stimulus package NOW in order to keep unemployment from rising above 8 percent.

Again, a FACT.

Despite rushing through the most bloated economic package in about 70 years, unemployment rose not only past 8 percent, but above 10 percent.

Again, a FACT.

By Obama's own standards -- the stimulus package was an abject FAILURE.

Let's see...I made more in 2009 than I ever have...I have two vacations planned for later this year...I have felt none of this so called recession....so I will not cry wolf or run around thinking the sky is falling. I am the upper middle class....political decisions don't affect me....

The only thing that hurts me is 4 dollar gas.

Bigdogg wrote: Armchair quarter backs are my favorite kind of people. It sounds like we have a lot of experts on here that think they can do a better job then the current administration has done with the economy in just a years time. Maybe you all should all grow some kahunas and run for political office. The stimulus program was designed to jump start the economy, not to solve the problems created over the past 8 years of the Bush administration.

Do you write Obama's speeches or do you just hang on every word he says?

georgemc80 wrote: Let's see...I made more in 2009 than I ever have...I have two vacations planned for later this year...I have felt none of this so called recession....so I will not cry wolf or run around thinking the sky is falling. I am the upper middle class....political decisions don't affect me....

The only thing that hurts me is 4 dollar gas.

Just because you haven't felt it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. And I highly doubt you are considered upper middle class as a school teacher, unless you fit this category.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_middle_class

Certain professions can be deemed as "upper middle class" in nature although any such measurement remains somewhat subjective because of differing perceptions of class. Most people in the upper-middle class strata are highly educated white collar professionals such as doctors (physicians US), lawyers, economists, accountants, university professors (lecturers UK), architects, city planners, consultants, scientists, engineers, dentists, non-corporate business owners, upper management civil servants and the intelligentsia. Generally, people in these professions have earned an advanced post-secondary education and what would be considered a comfortable standard of living. In most cases household incomes can range from $150,000 to $250,000 a year or more.

bigmanbt wrote:

Footwedge wrote:

bigmanbt wrote:
3) Nice "armchair QBing" by blaming everything on Bush (he did suck). Obama needs to stop blaming things on Bush and just fix the problems.

By doing what?

Well it certainly doesn't start with giving people free money. I know you are a proponet of deficit spending in times of need to jump start the economy, but it didn't work for FDR and it isn't working now. After both New Deals, the country was still in the depression in 1936. It took rebuilding half of Europe to pull us out of that.

You are wrong in how you perceive me. I am a deficit hawk and by default, I am an anti Keynesianist...with the ONLY exception, during a national emergence. We had no national emergency in the 50's. 60's 70's. 80's, 90's, or 2000's.

I will say this though. FDR's social policies did in fact kick start the ailing economy. Look it up. Unemployment dropped by appx 40%.

The government for years has told us to live within our means, it's time for them to do the same. It's almost juvenile to spend as much as they have without having the actual capital to back their expenditures.

If you are talking about reducing the national debt by simply cutting spending, your thinking fails. Once the debt has become so unmanageable, alongside of the outsourcing of 4 million blue and white collar jobs which used to generate much needed revenue, mathematics laws supercedes your thinking here. Fail.

You know me, I am for getting rid of entitlements (in a systematic, phase out way) or at least raising the age of SS to mid 70's to reflect the average lifespan. I would pull out of almost all countries and close nearly every base in our empire. I'd end the pointless and seemingly endless wars we are in. No more foreign aid for countries, we still need domestic aid and to pay off our deficit. I would also close down many departments and limit gov't size as well. Public sector jobs contribute very little to GDP, so get rid of them and let the private sector take over those areas. Lower business tax rates so small businesses can afford to survive (maybe even protective tariff our goods, though I would have to research the positives and negatives of that in today's world).

And if you believe in all of these things, (most of which I agree with] then you need to use your brain in understanding that the only way the private sector can grow...and provide real private industrial growth, then the thnik tank people should not be groomed from the Ivy League business schools, but think tanks that take a patriotic view on how to stop the carnage of lost American jobs.

Reminder...War of Wealth...Gabor Steingart. The ideas behind his book would bring employment back to 96%..and we would not have to raise taxes in paying for our yearly tab.

These are all things that will limit gov't spending and fix the problem, which right now is the deficit and unemployment rate. And I'm just 23 and have less experience than Obama (first time anyone's ever heard someone has less experience than Obama huh, lol) and don't have near the information he has at his disposal.

When I was 23, very similar conundrums were very much in play. At that time, I felt the same way that you do. Ttrust me when I tell you...those ideas of "just cut the government: will never turn things artound in our favor. The situation is much more dire than those vanilla or bengihn ellixers that you are suggesting would fix..

georgemc80 wrote: Let's see...I made more in 2009 than I ever have...I have two vacations planned for later this year...I have felt none of this so called recession....so I will not cry wolf or run around thinking the sky is falling. I am the upper middle class....political decisions don't affect me....

The only thing that hurts me is 4 dollar gas.

For you, and the other 80% that have not been doensized or outsourced, the train keeps on hummin down the track. Good for you.

When you get your pink skip, or when your industry closes down here in the States and moves to Mexico, India, or China, drop us a line on how your vacationa are going.

Just because you haven't felt it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. And I highly doubt you are considered upper middle class as a school teacher, unless you fit this category.

I assure you, I am in the upper middle class(TX pays their teachers a fair wage)..in fact I just jumped into a higher tax bracket and am having to pay more taxes because of it....its called marrying well.

When you get your pink skip, or when your industry closes down here in the States and moves to Mexico, India, or China, drop us a line on how your vacationa are going

Impossible, never going to happen...I learned from the sins of my father....If I lose my job, the economy has completely been destroyed and a mad max type world will be the result....Currently Honduras, then Disney are the next two vacations in case you want to keep a record.