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BlueDevil11's avatar

BlueDevil11

Senior Member

1,911 posts
Feb 1, 2010 4:18 PM
I have talked to four refs and two say the call was correct and two say it was incorrect.
Feb 1, 2010 11:18am
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Feb 1, 2010 4:28 PM
Well, if I'm the 5th, then the majority say it was correct :)

If the ball was still at the disposal of the thrower, and not yet inbounded, there is no team control. Therefore, it is a common foul, and bonus free throws are awarded.

Do you mind if I ask... of the four you asked, what was the experience of those officials? Varsity, college, JV, Jr. High, Rec ball?
Feb 1, 2010 11:28am
BlueDevil11's avatar

BlueDevil11

Senior Member

1,911 posts
Feb 1, 2010 8:16 PM
You are the fourth.
Two are high school varsity officials and my dad asked the other ref, so I am not sure about him.
Feb 1, 2010 3:16pm
P

Pariah

Senior Member

490 posts
Feb 3, 2010 12:18 AM
I have a question about traveling. It seems to be like obscenity - no one can define it, but they know it when they see it - but then they'll all disagree about it. :)

We have a girl on our local team who has a unique body - about 5'9 or 10 but large framed and yet very nimble and quick. She likes to do a move where she posts up low on one block, pivots toward the key and then jumps off the non-pivot foot to shoot the ball in the paint. We've seen her do this move for years. About half the time she gets called for traveling and about half the time she doesn't. Throwing out a few occasions where she might drag her pivot foot or take an extra step, it would seem that the officials are wrong (or right) half the time.

My question is this: Do players with atypical body types ever throw you off in terms of what think you are seeing?

It seems to our fans that this girl is penalized because some officials don't think a girl with that size should be able to make that move that quickly. Thus, she traveled because it didn't look right to them. Is there anything to that or are we barking up the wrong tree?
Feb 2, 2010 7:18pm
wildcats20's avatar

wildcats20

In ROY I Trust!!

27,794 posts
Feb 3, 2010 12:38 AM
Pariah wrote: She likes to do a move where she posts up low on one block, pivots toward the key and then jumps off the non-pivot foot to shoot the ball in the paint.
Not a ref, but.....

Does the non-pivot foot leave the floor before the pivot foot? If so then it would be a travel. If shes jumps off of both feet at the same time, not a travel.
Feb 2, 2010 7:38pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Feb 3, 2010 12:41 AM
I'm not to sure about the whole "body type" thing. However, one of the things I was taught, word for word, is "The body does not travel. The feet do." Players do awkward things all the time, and to EVERYONE it looks like a travel, when it really is not. Imagine this scenario:

Player is on a fast break, jumps, establishes pivot. Their NON pivot foot stutters for 4-5 quick steps. This whole time, their pivot foot remains on the floor. LOOKS weird, must be a travel, right? "The body doesn't travel. The fee do."
Feb 2, 2010 7:41pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Feb 3, 2010 12:43 AM
wildcats20 wrote:Does the non-pivot foot leave the floor before the pivot foot? If so then it would be a travel. If shes jumps off of both feet at the same time, not a travel.
I'm not sure if I understand your explanation. If you establish your right foot as your pivot foot, you can jump off your left foot, as long as your right does not come back down to the ground. I don't think I'm reading your explanation right though.
Feb 2, 2010 7:43pm
wildcats20's avatar

wildcats20

In ROY I Trust!!

27,794 posts
Feb 3, 2010 12:47 AM
ernest_t_bass wrote:
wildcats20 wrote:Does the non-pivot foot leave the floor before the pivot foot? If so then it would be a travel. If shes jumps off of both feet at the same time, not a travel.
I'm not sure if I understand your explanation. If you establish your right foot as your pivot foot, you can jump off your left foot, as long as your right does not come back down to the ground. I don't think I'm reading your explanation right though.
Yeah I just reread what I wrote and it's totally not what I was trying to say. lol
Feb 2, 2010 7:47pm
Crimson and Gray Hair's avatar

Crimson and Gray Hair

Senior Member

384 posts
Feb 4, 2010 2:23 AM
ernest_t_bass wrote:
wildcats20 wrote:Does the non-pivot foot leave the floor before the pivot foot? If so then it would be a travel. If shes jumps off of both feet at the same time, not a travel.
I'm not sure if I understand your explanation. If you establish your right foot as your pivot foot, you can jump off your left foot, as long as your right does not come back down to the ground. I don't think I'm reading your explanation right though.
Are these statements correct/incorrect:

1- The pivot foot can leave the floor, either before or after the non-pivot foot, while the ball is still in the player's hands provided the player shoots the ball before the pivot foot touches the floor again.

2- The pivot foot can leave the floor, either before or after the non-pivot foot, while the ball is still in the player's hands provided the player passes the ball before the pivot foot touches the floor again.
Feb 3, 2010 9:23pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Feb 4, 2010 2:52 AM
Yes/Yes
Feb 3, 2010 9:52pm
H

HSBBR

Junior Member

9 posts
Feb 4, 2010 4:53 AM
ernest_t_bass wrote:
HSBBR wrote:Time out can only be granted when there is player control of the ball. Obviously that player is on the team requesting the time out.
Doesn't necessarily have to be player control. While jumping out of bounds, there has to be player control. If A1 passes to A2, there is team control, and a timeout can be awarded.
Ernest,

Your wrong!

Rule 5-8-3a

"....official grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted ONLY when:
a.) The ball is in CONTROL or at the disposal of a PLAYER of his/her team."

There must be PLAYER CONTROL, not only TEAM CONTROL.

CASE BOOK 5.8.3 Situation F:

"A1's dribble is "interrupted" when the ball deflects off his/her shoe. A1 or a teammate asks or signals for a time-out as the ball bounces toward: (a) the sideline; or (b) the division line.

RULING: The request cannot be granted in (a) or (b), since A1's dribble has been interrupted and the ball is loose."
Feb 3, 2010 11:53pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Feb 4, 2010 12:07 PM
I don't agree with that, as that situation is an interrupted dribble, which is different than a pass. I'm not ruling out the fact that I'm wrong, but I've asked my rules interpreters, and when I get the response, I will post it on here... even if/when I AM wrong.
Feb 4, 2010 7:07am
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Feb 4, 2010 1:14 PM
First off, I was wrong, so I apologize. HSBBR... Honestly, thank you for pointing it out, b/c it made me search for the correct answer.

Here is what I asked...
If A1 is passing the ball to A2, can a time out be granted to Team A's
coach while the ball is in mid-air?

Here was interpreter #1's response
NO. Ball must be in control of a player of his/her team [5-8-3a and CB
5.8.3 SIT D(b)]

Seriously, thank you for pointing that out.
Feb 4, 2010 8:14am
B

bartsimpson

Senior Member

168 posts
Feb 4, 2010 6:40 PM
Did the NFHS completely do away with the traveling call this season? I've watched a lot of games, junior high boys, freshman, jv and varsity girls and jv and varsity boys and it seems that at all levels the traveling call has become non-existent.
Feb 4, 2010 1:40pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Feb 4, 2010 6:46 PM
I call traveling all the time. Traveling is probably the hardest call to actually get right. Often times, what DOES look like a travel, is not... and what does NOT look like a travel, is.
Feb 4, 2010 1:46pm
H

HSBBR

Junior Member

9 posts
Feb 5, 2010 3:56 AM
Traveling is a point of emphasis this year. I think the players have adjusted to the officials calling it - especially the the "hop" before the jump shot and the jump stop. Unfortunately, not all officials catch all the travels. Additionally, the view from the stands is considerably different from that on the floor. Just because it doesn't look right doesn't necessarily make it illegal.
Feb 4, 2010 10:56pm
R

ross ford81

Senior Member

220 posts
Feb 5, 2010 11:28 AM
Strange discussion about traveling. Some say they call it all the time while others say it never gets called. I say traveling is called more often than it happens. Too many refs are watching the ball, head, shoulders, etc. and not the feet. Also, big steps do not count more than small ones, do they? And the jump stop is so inconsistently called (easy for refs to call it when many people sitting in the stands think its traveling). Lots of unsual aspects to this overall subject, perhaps my favorite: Player A drives into the lane and attempts a shot and shoots an airball. Player A quickly rushes toward the basket and catches his own airball and shoots again and scores. How many people think this is a travel? It's not. Some fans go crazy when this happens.
Feb 5, 2010 6:28am
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Feb 5, 2010 1:08 PM
Rossford... on your situation, you're right, it is not a travel. Fans complain so much b/c it is a situation that is very rare.
Feb 5, 2010 8:08am
Crimson and Gray Hair's avatar

Crimson and Gray Hair

Senior Member

384 posts
Feb 6, 2010 2:17 AM
At the jump, player A1 gets the tip to player A2 who touches the ball, but never gets control, before it goes out of bounds.
Team B inbounds the ball.
The possession arrow goes to team A.

Should the possession arrow have gone to team B?

Or, was team A's contact with the ball not considered a possession as no player actually had control of the ball?

(Interesting thread btw)
Feb 5, 2010 9:17pm
BlueDevil11's avatar

BlueDevil11

Senior Member

1,911 posts
Feb 6, 2010 2:39 AM
ernest, i asked another ref about that call, and he said that free throws should have been shot in that situation.
That means that 3 refs say the call was wrong, and 2 say it was the correct call.
Feb 5, 2010 9:39pm
H

HSBBR

Junior Member

9 posts
Feb 6, 2010 3:46 AM
Crimson and Gray Hair wrote: At the jump, player A1 gets the tip to player A2 who touches the ball, but never gets control, before it goes out of bounds.
Team B inbounds the ball.
The possession arrow goes to team A.

Should the possession arrow have gone to team B?

Or, was team A's contact with the ball not considered a possession as no player actually had control of the ball?

(Interesting thread btw)
No possession prior to the ball going out of bounds.

Team B is awarded the throw in (essentially the first possession of the game) as a result of A causing the ball to go out of bounds. The alternating possession arrow is set towards A's basket when a player from Team B has the ball for the throw-in.
Feb 5, 2010 10:46pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Feb 6, 2010 3:46 AM
Crimson and Gray Hair wrote: At the jump, player A1 gets the tip to player A2 who touches the ball, but never gets control, before it goes out of bounds.
Team B inbounds the ball.
The possession arrow goes to team A.

Should the possession arrow have gone to team B?

Or, was team A's contact with the ball not considered a possession as no player actually had control of the ball?

(Interesting thread btw)
Team B starts the game with first "possession." Therefore, next alternating possession goes to Team A.
Feb 5, 2010 10:46pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Feb 6, 2010 3:47 AM
HSBBR beat me to it. HSBBR... you a ref? If so, nice to have you here!
Feb 5, 2010 10:47pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Feb 6, 2010 3:49 AM
BlueDevil11 wrote: ernest, i asked another ref about that call, and he said that free throws should have been shot in that situation.
That means that 3 refs say the call was wrong, and 2 say it was the correct call.
You are right, the free throws should have been awarded, b/c there was no team possession. What did the refs actually call?

If the refs actually awarded free throws (the correct call) then I hope you're not pinning me as one of the ones that got it wrong! :)
Feb 5, 2010 10:49pm
H

HSBBR

Junior Member

9 posts
Feb 6, 2010 3:51 AM
ernest_t_bass wrote: HSBBR beat me to it. HSBBR... you a ref? If so, nice to have you here!
Yes sir! Nice to be here. Enjoy trying to explain some of the most misunderstood rules of the game!
Feb 5, 2010 10:51pm