Heretic;1839252 wrote:Well, when you consider minor details such as that if Graham was around now, he'd have access to the same weight training programs, nutritional programs, excellent year-round facilities, style of offensive coaching and so on that the athletes of today have, your "look at his size and peripherals and tell me how that'd fly today?" argument automatically loses all validity.

Maybe. But he didn't have those and he played in a watered down league therefore making the claim that he can transcend time and become this great player in a saturated league is asinine at best. It's a ridiculous argument. The athletes today are better/faster/stronger in every way so forgive me if I don't care about trash athletes in the 1950's

sleeper;1839248 wrote:The NFL when these players played was an absolute joke. They were good for their times but they have no business being labeled "GOAT" anything especially when compared to reality.

Let me guess, you think Babe Ruth getting drunk and smoke cigarettes before games would fly into today's era? He wouldn't even make Single A.

I like in 1920 when HOF George Sisler was 2nd in the league with 19 HR....no one hit 20-29 HR, no one hit 30-39 HR and no one hit 40-49 HR....Babe hit 54 that season...more than every single team in MLB except the Phillies.

Who are you to say that a guy who led the game as the best player both statistical and metrically for 13 out of 14 consecutive seasons couldn't play in single a today with all of the advances fit for athletes of the last 100 years?

Over 80 years ago Jesse Owens ran 100m on shitty slow surface and did it in 10.2...in the history of the world since then with all these faster tracks, training advances, nutrition etc exactly 1 person has ran .5 seconds faster than that. His name is Usain. Owens ran on ash cinders and used a garden trowel to dig holes in cinders opposed to using starting blocks.

Why is the 2nd farthest long jump of all-time done in 1968? Why has no one out jumped Mike Powell from 25 years ago?

Yeah, athletes are mostly all bigger, faster and stronger now than in the past but other than height...everything else is based on training/lifting/technological advances/better knowledge of better ways. Yeah Wilt wouldn't score 50 ppg today or even in the 80's and wouldn't have 25 rebounds a game and Babe wouldn't hit more HR than almost every other team.....but saying they wouldn't be anything today is bitter and irresponsible trolling on your part. I admire you sticking with your ways....but you are off your game today.

Prayers

Ironman92;1839286 wrote:I like in 1920 when HOF George Sisler was 2nd in the league with 19 HR....no one hit 20-29 HR, no one hit 30-39 HR and no one hit 40-49 HR....Babe hit 54 that season...more than every single team in MLB except the Phillies.

Who are you to say that a guy who led the game as the best player both statistical and metrically for 13 out of 14 consecutive seasons couldn't play in single a today with all of the advances fit for athletes of the last 100 years?

Over 80 years ago Jesse Owens ran 100m on shitty slow surface and did it in 10.2...in the history of the world since then with all these faster tracks, training advances, nutrition etc exactly 1 person has ran .5 seconds faster than that. His name is Usain. Owens ran on ash cinders and used a garden trowel to dig holes in cinders opposed to using starting blocks.

Why is the 2nd farthest long jump of all-time done in 1968? Why has no one out jumped Mike Powell from 25 years ago?

Yeah, athletes are mostly all bigger, faster and stronger now than in the past but other than height...everything else is based on training/lifting/technological advances/better knowledge of better ways. Yeah Wilt wouldn't score 50 ppg today or even in the 80's and wouldn't have 25 rebounds a game and Babe wouldn't hit more HR than almost every other team.....but saying they wouldn't be anything today is bitter and irresponsible trolling on your part. I admire you sticking with your ways....but you are off your game today.

Prayers

Babe was going up against pitchers that were straight dog shit. He probably roided because no one did any drug testing back then. Can you imagine someone drinking and smoking cigs before he went to bat in 2017? They would be cut immediately. Also playing in a league where black people, the best athletes, weren't allowed is quite laughable.

Your claims about track speed are an absolute joke. Even in the qualifiers, before the Olympics, if you don't run under 10 seconds you won't even make the Olympics much less make it anywhere near the Finals. Think about that for a second, the greatest athlete of that generation would barely win his high schools 100m in today's age. .5 seconds in the 100m is an eternity and we have probably reached almost the limit of current human potential. It would be hard to see someone running a 100m in under 9 seconds for example.

As far as why some records remain for decades, perhaps it has to do with the best athletes of our generation going into revenue producing sports like the NBA and the NFL. It's similar to why US soccer is shit; because the league doesn't pay any money. All of our best athletes are going into the NFL/NBA which gives the current generation even more credibility vs. the spread out talent of old school shit.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up "Well so and so athlete didn't have today's technology to make them bigger faster stronger, but if they did they would be even better!!!". Sorry, they were slow shit athletes playing against a depleted talent pool of other shit slow athletes. They wouldn't even make a team much less be labeled "GOAT". It's a joke how much nolstagia deludes reality; call it trolling, I call it pointing out reality and ignoring the "feelz".

They would on ash cinders without starting blocks. Starting blocks would take Owens down to 10.0 and an Olympic all weather track another .2-.3. Track and Field people believe Bolt would be only sprinter in the world under 10 seconds and guessing him at 9.9

If Babe was facing dog shit pitchers....then why was he hitting more HR than every other team? Were they facing Clayton Kershaw?

Explain the long jump issue I mentioned....athletes in higher $ sports? The marathon back in Owens day was over an hour slower than it is now. Big cash in marathon running?

Wilt, like Kareem and Shaq would be a top today's game.

Ironman92;1839286 wrote:I like in 1920 when HOF George Sisler was 2nd in the league with 19 HR....no one hit 20-29 HR, no one hit 30-39 HR and no one hit 40-49 HR....Babe hit 54 that season...more than every single team in MLB except the Phillies.

Who are you to say that a guy who led the game as the best player both statistical and metrically for 13 out of 14 consecutive seasons couldn't play in single a today with all of the advances fit for athletes of the last 100 years?

Over 80 years ago Jesse Owens ran 100m on shitty slow surface and did it in 10.2...in the history of the world since then with all these faster tracks, training advances, nutrition etc exactly 1 person has ran .5 seconds faster than that. His name is Usain. Owens ran on ash cinders and used a garden trowel to dig holes in cinders opposed to using starting blocks.

Why is the 2nd farthest long jump of all-time done in 1968? Why has no one out jumped Mike Powell from 25 years ago?

Yeah, athletes are mostly all bigger, faster and stronger now than in the past but other than height...everything else is based on training/lifting/technological advances/better knowledge of better ways. Yeah Wilt wouldn't score 50 ppg today or even in the 80's and wouldn't have 25 rebounds a game and Babe wouldn't hit more HR than almost every other team.....but saying they wouldn't be anything today is bitter and irresponsible trolling on your part. I admire you sticking with your ways....but you are off your game today.

Prayers

Pwned. I suggest Sleeper does what his parents did, get a job sir.

Ironman92;1839291 wrote:They would on ash cinders without starting blocks. Starting blocks would take Owens down to 10.0 and an Olympic all weather track another .2-.3. Track and Field people believe Bolt would be only sprinter in the world under 10 seconds and guessing him at 9.9

If Babe was facing dog shit pitchers....then why was he hitting more HR than every other team? Were they facing Clayton Kershaw?

Explain the long jump issue I mentioned....athletes in higher $ sports? The marathon back in Owens day was over an hour slower than it is now. Big cash in marathon running?

Wilt, like Kareem and Shaq would be a top today's game.

Not sure you can understand the concept; none of the top athletes in this generation are going into long jumping or even track and field.

Babe Ruth could have been roiding and that's why he was so far ahead of other athletes in his era. Doesn't mean he would do shit in today's Single A league.

Let go of the past. It's shit.

While I disagree with Sleeper's blanket take on this, he does have a point.

The best athletes are going into sports where there is massive guaranteed money and fame. They aren't trying to become Olympians in obscure sports.

I know he's always used as a barometer, but I would venture to say that if LeBron James started throwing shot-put or something like that at age 3, he probably could be one of the best of all-time.

Azubuike24;1839449 wrote:While I disagree with Sleeper's blanket take on this, he does have a point.

The best athletes are going into sports where there is massive guaranteed money and fame. They aren't trying to become Olympians in obscure sports.

I know he's always used as a barometer, but I would venture to say that if LeBron James started throwing shot-put or something like that at age 3, he probably could be one of the best of all-time.

The point is he didn't know who Otto Graham was. If you claim to be knowledgeable and don't know who Otto Graham is, then you are 100% full of shit, but we already knew that.

Yeah, I wasn't defending that, especially if he's a Cleveland fan???

like_that;1839461 wrote:The point is he didn't know who Otto Graham was. If you claim to be knowledgeable and don't know who Otto Graham is, then you are 100% full of shit, but we already knew that.

I know who he is. What does Otto Graham have to do when discussing the top 10 QBs of all time? That's like talking about the greatest CEOs of all time and then bringing up Marissa Mayer randomly. It's not even worth a second breath. He has something like 22,000 career passing yards; How many does Derek Anderson have? How many Super Bowls has Otto Graham won? Then whatever you come up with, let's account for him playing diluted shit league with slow trash athletes.

I understand this is a Brown's board but let's be real about his legacy. He's a HOF QB in a time before time. Reality, it's a bitch.

Wow this went on a while.

Leather fucking helmets. :laugh:

[video=youtube;nCDZV4sIEEU][/video]

He's #16 on the list, Steve Young (whom many on here had as a top 10 QB is #81). Sleeper loses again.

Commander of Awesome;1839479 wrote:[video=youtube;nCDZV4sIEEU][/video]

He's #16 on the list, Steve Young (whom many on here had as a top 10 QB is #81). Sleeper loses again.

You claimed he was #1 and now you've already backtracked to #16. What happened since yesterday? Why does this video have any credibility?

Let me know when you learn to think for yourself.

sleeper;1839480 wrote:You claimed he was #1 and now you've already backtracked to #16. What happened since yesterday? Why does this video have any credibility?

Let me know when you learn to think for yourself.

No you dolt, NFL has him as #16. I do have him as my #1. Can't argue with 10 seasons, 10 championship games.

Commander of Awesome;1839483 wrote:No you dolt, NFL has him as #16. I do have him as my #1. Can't argue with 10 seasons, 10 championship games.

How many Super Bowls did he win? How many passing yards does he have?

derper;1839485 wrote:How many Super Bowls did he win? How many passing yards does he have?

How many SBs does Jim Brown have? Going to tell me he sucks next?

No disagreement the top athletes mostly filter to the bigger sports...but why has the winning marathon times went down nearly 20% since Jesse Owens time and about 15% from 50 years ago and long jump is still the same and the sprinting is about 5% faster but almost every bit of that is due to surface and equipment.

The training, knowledge of how to best train, nutrition and technology is huge and cannot be discounted in a pick and choose manner.

I'm sure Babe Ruth is more likely to have been on steroids than virtually every single player now too. Barry Bonds was easily the best player and obviously roiding...and had he hit 225 HR in a season we can compare him to what Ruth did in the early 20's.

I'll not hijack this thread anymore and let sleeper have the last word.

Ironman92;1839490 wrote:No disagreement the top athletes mostly filter to the bigger sports...but why has the winning marathon times went down nearly 20% since Jesse Owens time and about 15% from 50 years ago and long jump is still the same and the sprinting is about 5% faster but almost every bit of that is due to surface and equipment.

The training, knowledge of how to best train, nutrition and technology is huge and cannot be discounted in a pick and choose manner.

I'm sure Babe Ruth is more likely to have been on steroids than virtually every single player now too. Barry Bonds was easily the best player and obviously roiding...and had he hit 225 HR in a season we can compare him to what Ruth did in the early 20's.

I'll not hijack this thread anymore and let sleeper have the last word.

Because once again you are ignoring the monetary aspect and how it encourages certain behaviors. The 100m is about the only track and field sport that earns prime time viewing and produces endorsement deals that can give incentive to athletes to dedicate their life to pursue. You can probably name a handful of 100m runners but can you name even the last gold medal winner of the long jump? No. No one cares about the long jump therefore it would be a rare event to get a prime athlete to devote his life to that sport. If someone was able to long jump, perhaps they can find another, more lucrative sport to use their skills.

Barry Bonds is absolute shit because he cheated. This is why despite breaking records no one cares about him and no one would seriously label him a top 5,000 MLB player. He's shit. Babe Ruth is shit too.

Commander of Awesome;1839489 wrote:How many SBs does Jim Brown have? Going to tell me he sucks next?

Jim Brown is #10 all time rushing yards. Impressive but I wouldn't say he's the best RB of all time. He played in a water down league, I'd love to see him go up against current NFL lines. He would likely make a team but in reality wouldn't be as dominant.

At least Jim Brown has some quality data to support him. Otto Graham has SHIT and its laughable that you are such a big homer you can't accept the fact that he is trash when compared to reality.

Entire NFL rank player as top 16 of all time. Sleeper calls him dogshit. Just LOL

Commander of Awesome;1839496 wrote:Entire NFL rank player as top 16 of all time. Sleeper calls him dogshit. Just LOL

Well he's in the HOF so the NFL isn't exactly unbiased and will want to promote itself whenever possible.

Given that the HOF isn't meant to rank players or update as time goes on, it would be hard to use the HOF as some sort of indicator of actual talent. Don't look to the NFL for unbiased opinions but I don't expect much out of someone that isn't interested in thinking for themselves.

sleeper;1839498 wrote:Well he's in the HOF so the NFL isn't exactly unbiased and will want to promote itself whenever possible.

Given that the HOF isn't meant to rank players or update as time goes on, it would be hard to use the HOF as some sort of indicator of actual talent. Don't look to the NFL for unbiased opinions but I don't expect much out of someone that isn't interested in thinking for themselves.

Umm.....what?

Commander of Awesome;1839500 wrote:Umm.....what?

What concept are you confused about? I can't explain it any easier than the above.

Guys, sleeper says we can no longer use the HOF to gauge the NFL's best players. This is some NON level deep end shit here. :huh:

Commander of Awesome;1839502 wrote:Guys, sleeper says we can no longer use the HOF to gauge the NFL's best players. This is some NON level deep end shit here. :huh:

It's a snap shot in time of the best players in that era. I'm really not sure why you think this has any relevancy to the discussion. It's not like its meant to rank players, its merely an accolade given at a certain point in time. Would Otto Graham make the HOF in today's game? Given his mediocre stats and the ability to make the championship game(not win, but make) the game in a 8 team league called the AFAFC 10 times, I certainly doubt his ability to even MAKE an NFL team. CFL maybe but who really cares?

Your argument is akin to calling James Jones the GOAT because he made 6 straight NBA finals, no one cares. It does not matter. Sorry to tell the truth about your hero.