gut;1701174 wrote:The poor sure take a lot from the non-poor.

right, that is why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer in as opportunity dies.

isadore;1701184 wrote:right, that is why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer in as opportunity dies.

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer because of decisions they make. If you gave everyone a million dollars, some would make good decisions and make that money grow. Others would simply throw it away. Look at all of the athletes and celebrities that go break after making tens of millions of dollars. No amount of money is going to fix bad decision making.

isadore;1701183 wrote:gosh a ruddies I sure hope someone from whoville or tiny tim can make your heart expand.

My heart is already big enough. It doesn't have room for worthless rent seeking leeches who want handouts from people who actually try to contribute in a positive manner to society.

isadore;1701184 wrote:right, that is why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer in as opportunity dies.

It's more of a cultural issue. Smart, successful people marry other smart, successful people and have smart, successful kids. The poor and stupid have poor and stupid children (and typically more of them).

Maybe if we want smarter children and a more mobile society, we should stop providing the perverse incentives for poor people to have more kids while middle class are squeezed financially to have fewer.

Al Bundy;1701185 wrote:The rich get richer and the poor get poorer because of decisions they make. If you gave everyone a million dollars, some would make good decisions and make that money grow. Others would simply throw it away. Look at all of the athletes and celebrities that go break after making tens of millions of dollars. No amount of money is going to fix bad decision making.

the rich have resources and an extended support system to cover their mistakes, the poor don't.

sleeper;1701189 wrote:My heart is already big enough. It doesn't have room for worthless rent seeking leeches who want handouts from people who actually try to contribute in a positive manner to society.

thank you for your input Mr. Gerald Richard INCH

gut;1701190 wrote:It's more of a cultural issue. Smart, successful people marry other smart, successful people and have smart, successful kids. The poor and stupid have poor and stupid children (and typically more of them).

Maybe if we want smarter children and a more mobile society, we should stop providing the perverse incentives for poor people to have more kids while middle class are squeezed financially to have fewer.

I thought after 1945 Eugenic arguments had stopped being used.

isadore;1701164 wrote:Con_Alma the first, circa 1800- keep waiting and let me know when they provide public elementary education
Con_Alma the fourth, circas 1900-keep waiting and let me know when they provide public secondary education
Con-Alma the eighth-----

????

What in the world is this?

I know today the tax payers don't support such a proposal. Let me know when they do because suggesting it will happen is simply speculation.

isadore;1701194 wrote:the rich have resources and an extended support system to cover their mistakes, the poor don't.

Many rich people go bankrupt.

isadore;1701196 wrote:I thought after 1945 Eugenic arguments had stopped being used.

Intelligence is hereditary and poor, stupid people breed like rabbits. Look no further for your answer to declining mobility.

Al Bundy;1701199 wrote:Many rich people go bankrupt.

and poor people go bankrupt, the rich that do though use their resources to protect many of their assets. they dodge a bullet which poor people are unable to do.

isadore;1701206 wrote:and poor people go bankrupt, the rich that do though use their resources to protect many of their assets. they dodge a bullet which poor people are unable to do.

What exactly does a poor person lose when they go bankrupt? It's not like the govt is going to take their Section 8 housing.

gut;1701202 wrote:Intelligence is hereditary and poor, stupid people breed like rabbits. Look no further for your answer to declining mobility.

intelligence in part is environmental.
are you an advocate of using coercive means to cut down on birth rate of the poor.

gut;1701207 wrote:What exactly does a poor person lose when they go bankrupt? It's not like the govt is going to take their Section 8 housing.

again a stereotype not all poor are in public housing. I know you hate it, but some have a few assets to lose.

CenterBHSFan;1699680 wrote:People who have less money or more money have the same resources to inquire about getting loans to go to college.

How is it fair to expect one person to pay for college and yet give another person the opportunity to go to college for free?

You cannot create "fairness" for one while being unfair to another. Your reasoning is ridiculous, even for you. Do better.

I'm still waiting on a logical answer for this lol

isadore;1701208 wrote: are you an advocate of using coercive means to cut down on birth rate of the poor.

It's the only way you're actually going to make that "social mobility" number look better. You can't fix stupid. And, environment, again goes back to poor stupid parents making bad decisions so it's not actually a counter-argument but supports my point.

isadore;1701169 wrote:you got to be kidding, the rough life of those with inherited wealth. They paid their dues. LOL Maybe to the country club. You say unbelievable things. You know why all these people are poor- “their parents or grandparents failed to work for it.” Do you know most people in this country worked many, many hours a week at hard and sometimes dangerous jobs and because of circumstances and responsibilities never became wealthy, in fact they just got by. To you they are just a bunch of losers.
As we are guaranteed a free public elementary and secondary education, a free post academic or vocational education should be available to all. IF you wish something else then you pay the difference.
As to being blocked, that’s the way it goes when you tell people the truth.

I firmly believe people deserve what they've earned...how is that so hard to believe? At the same time, we (as a collective population) need less poverty throughout the whole population. We can achieve both -- not continuously stealing from the rich to give to the poor AND help those less fortunate.

There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with "just getting by." You ASSume, imply, and infer again...stuff that isn't there. Who do you think my family is? You don't know. My family was "alright." To me, it was just getting by. Guess what? My grandparents grew the family farm from nothing to roughly 1,000 acres and tractors -- instead of all manual labor and a garden. While doing this, they were poor. When I was a child, my mom and dad made a dinner table out of cardboard boxes. A classmate of mine had dirt floors in his house and no indoor plumbing. I come from one of the poorest counties in Ohio. By no means was my family "rich." By no means did my family disregard those less fortunate. My family worked for what they had...and continue to do so.

There are numerous opportunities to get free higher educational opportunities. The majority do not take advantage of those -- that's also shown by the graduation/retention rates of community colleges and not accounting for finances as a reason for lack of attendance. The issue is much deeper than finances for higher education. I've been there, I've lived in it. I continue to see it while I work with the less fortunate. My wife has been a school teacher for over 4 years in some of the roughest schools in the states we've lived. There is a lot more to higher education attainability than finances for the poor.

It's more than just giving more free things. With those free things, there has to be accountability and progress. With all our systems, I imagine the overwhelming majority have zero accountability and less progress. Sure, there are the few that have utilized the programs to their advantages and gotten out of their poor socioeconomic standing...those are the outliers, as we all know. Increase the accountability, then there should be progress. Show progress and the accountability will be present.

CenterBHSFan;1701210 wrote:I'm still waiting on a logical answer for this lol

it was explained once but hey, some people's minds just operates a gear slower.

lets try it this way
Was it fair to all those rich folks who could afford private tutors back in 1800 when government supported elementary school became available to all.
Was it fair to all those rich folks who could afford to send their kids to a secondary school when government supported secondary education became available to all. In your world we would never take that step toward an educated populous because some who could afford it would be taxed for all to be educated.
Oh and the poor have less chance to get an education than the rich, you don't seem to realize that.

isadore;1701194 wrote:the rich have resources and an extended support system to cover their mistakes, the poor don't.

The poor don't? C'mon man...you've already pointed out many resources and support that the poor have. Free primary and secondary education. Free use of public libraries. Opportunities for free computers. HUD. Low-income assistance. Community action agencies. Job training opportunities. Education assistance (much more available to poor people than those in the middle-class). Help for rent. Energy bill assistance. Low income health care programs. Free or low cost food. Child care subsidies. Free debt and credit counseling.

They also can take advantage of charity organizations.

What aspect of any of this ISN'T poor individual or family help? There are all kinds of options out there. I lived in one of the poorest states in the country for two years...every school kid had either an iPad or Mac computer to take home for personal use. That was funded by a grant for poor communities (i.e., the whole state in this case). That's not available for those above them in socioeconomic standing. Those above them cannot always afford their own iPad or Mac. Heck...they can barely afford to put away $50 per month for a 529 that would've gotten taxed!

I have to say it again, but it's not like it'll matter...I'm all for helping the poor...but, what more is needed? I know what's available in higher education already -- I work in it. The opportunities are there. I know of MANY schools that are FREE to the poor...one that a former student of mine tried to go to that would've cost him $50,000 per year to attend because he didn't fit into the socioeconomic status that would've gotten any inkling of financial aid. Many schools are also need-blind admission. These institutions are both public and private (how it should be). People can choose and go where they want...the problem is...they have to want to do something.

OSH;1701212 wrote:I firmly believe people deserve what they've earned...how is that so hard to believe? At the same time, we (as a collective population) need less poverty throughout the whole population. We can achieve both -- not continuously stealing from the rich to give to the poor AND help those less fortunate.

There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with "just getting by." You ASSume, imply, and infer again...stuff that isn't there. Who do you think my family is? You don't know. My family was "alright." To me, it was just getting by. Guess what? My grandparents grew the family farm from nothing to roughly 1,000 acres and tractors -- instead of all manual labor and a garden. While doing this, they were poor. When I was a child, my mom and dad made a dinner table out of cardboard boxes. A classmate of mine had dirt floors in his house and no indoor plumbing. I come from one of the poorest counties in Ohio. By no means was my family "rich." By no means did my family disregard those less fortunate. My family worked for what they had...and continue to do so.

There are numerous opportunities to get free higher educational opportunities. The majority do not take advantage of those -- that's also shown by the graduation/retention rates of community colleges and not accounting for finances as a reason for lack of attendance. The issue is much deeper than finances for higher education. I've been there, I've lived in it. I continue to see it while I work with the less fortunate. My wife has been a school teacher for over 4 years in some of the roughest schools in the states we've lived. There is a lot more to higher education attainability than finances for the poor.

It's more than just giving more free things. With those free things, there has to be accountability and progress. With all our systems, I imagine the overwhelming majority have zero accountability and less progress. Sure, there are the few that have utilized the programs to their advantages and gotten out of their poor socioeconomic standing...those are the outliers, as we all know. Increase the accountability, then there should be progress. Show progress and the accountability will be present.

“not continuously stealing from the rich to give to the poor and help those less fortunate.” Gosh you must have always rooted for the Sheriff of Nottingham. I guess you would prefer that some years the rich pay no taxes to help the poor, then they would not be stuck continuously. The poor and less fortunate could just tough it out those years. Eating, wearing clothes and having a roof over your head are just luxuries, let’s give the rich a break. Oh that right for the last three decades they have been consistently given tax breaks in the form of deductions and much lower rates. This is one reason why their wealth has increased at such an enormous rate in those decades.
“Some people are born rich their parents worked for it. The same reason why people are born poor, their parents or grandparents failed to WORK for it.” Gosh a ruddies anybody who is not rich has failed their family. Now that is an indictme,nt of the large majority of our ancestors. People who worked very hard. You seem to claim your family had it rough, but nobody else did. They were just losers for not becoming wealthy
The money is not there for millions in the lower quintiles to obtain an education. They also lack the support system the wealthy have. It carries those wealthy folks through personal and family difficulties, while the poor crash and burn. People use accountability as a club on the poor, but those with more resources can dodge accountabliltiy.

If there's not enough poor people supporting your agenda, then the answer is create more poor people!

OSH;1701215 wrote:The poor don't? C'mon man...you've already pointed out many resources and support that the poor have. Free primary and secondary education. Free use of public libraries. Opportunities for free computers. HUD. Low-income assistance. Community action agencies. Job training opportunities. Education assistance (much more available to poor people than those in the middle-class). Help for rent. Energy bill assistance. Low income health care programs. Free or low cost food. Child care subsidies. Free debt and credit counseling.

They also can take advantage of charity organizations.

What aspect of any of this ISN'T poor individual or family help? There are all kinds of options out there. I lived in one of the poorest states in the country for two years...every school kid had either an iPad or Mac computer to take home for personal use. That was funded by a grant for poor communities (i.e., the whole state in this case). That's not available for those above them in socioeconomic standing. Those above them cannot always afford their own iPad or Mac. Heck...they can barely afford to put away $50 per month for a 529 that would've gotten taxed!

I have to say it again, but it's not like it'll matter...I'm all for helping the poor...but, what more is needed? I know what's available in higher education already -- I work in it. The opportunities are there. I know of MANY schools that are FREE to the poor...one that a former student of mine tried to go to that would've cost him $50,000 per year to attend because he didn't fit into the socioeconomic status that would've gotten any inkling of financial aid. Many schools are also need-blind admission. These institutions are both public and private (how it should be). People can choose and go where they want...the problem is...they have to want to do something.

Gosh a ruddies, given your extensive education, you must be acquainted with the term begrudge. As you know it means to be envious or resentful of something given to another. Your statements reflect it.
Of course it is still a little shocking to see someone who thinks the poor are so lucky because they are allowed to go to public schools and use public libraries. Wow they actually let poor people into those places, unbelievable. They are so spoiled, look at all they have. I am sure everyone in America is lining and asking to be poor. Please, Please get my income under $10,000 a year, then my cup will runneth over. And then maybe I can “take advantage of some charity organization.”
The rosy picture you paint of poverty, does not fit the reality of the vast majority of those in the lower income quintiles. And it is much more difficult for them to obtain and complete a post secondary education than those in higher income groups.

gut;1701233 wrote:If there's not enough poor people supporting your agenda, then the answer is create more poor people!

gosh a ruddies, why don't those rich folks just have more kids.

isadore;1701240 wrote:gosh a ruddies, why don't those rich folks just have more kids.

You're going to have a few less kids when you don't start getting pregnant at 14.

gut;1701241 wrote:You're going to have a few less kids when you don't start getting pregnant at 14.

you don't have to start at 14 to have more kids than the average poor family. Hell the rich won't even replace themselves