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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Mar 8, 2013 11:53am
That's a problem and should be addressed.LJ;1402710 wrote:Some of the localities make you pay the fine before you can fight the ticket. How ****ed up is that?
LJ
Posts: 16,351
Mar 8, 2013 11:53am
Laws should not be in place to generate revenue. Enforcement of laws should not be for profit.Con_Alma;1402714 wrote:Why?
justincredible
Posts: 32,056
Mar 8, 2013 11:54am
Absolutely.LJ;1402717 wrote:Laws should not be in place to generate revenue. Enforcement of laws should not be for profit.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Mar 8, 2013 11:57am
I don't think the traffic laws are in place to generate money. Weren't the laws that are being broken in place prior to the camera technology?LJ;1402717 wrote:Laws should not be in place to generate revenue. Enforcement of laws should not be for profit.
It seems the enforcement of this law is contracted out to reduce the expense of the city. I don't think that's such a bad thing.
Heretic
Posts: 18,820
Mar 8, 2013 11:57am
ala New Rome. The village which only existed as such due to a "speed trap 4 profit!!!!" rule which lasted for way too damn long.LJ;1402717 wrote:Laws should not be in place to generate revenue. Enforcement of laws should not be for profit.
LJ
Posts: 16,351
Mar 8, 2013 12:00pm
It is, because the company it is contracted to is a for profit company, meaning they have incentive to push the limits on the enforcement in order to increase their profits. The job of the locality is to enforce laws and provide services. That is what they are given tax funds for.Con_Alma;1402720 wrote:I don't think the traffic laws are in place to generate money. Weren't the laws that are being broken in place prior to the camera technology?
It seems the enforcement of this law is contracted out to reduce the expense of the city. I don't think that's such a bad thing.
And yes, traffic laws can be in place to generate revenue, see Heretic's post
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Mar 8, 2013 12:04pm
It's good that the company pushes the limit to enforce the law so long as they don't exceed the limit. If a City has never been able to fully enforce the law all the time and now has the ability, it's a good thing.LJ;1402724 wrote:It is, because the company it is contracted to is a for profit company, meaning they have incentive to push the limits on the enforcement in order to increase their profits. The job of the locality is to enforce laws and provide services. That is what they are given tax funds for.
And yes, traffic laws can be in place to generate revenue, see Heretic's post
Things like red light laws seem to have been in place prior to being fully enforced all the time. I am not of the opinion they were put into place for the purpose of generating revenue. If they can generate revenue that a good thing when considering it can help reduce the amount of tax revenue need to do so.
LJ
Posts: 16,351
Mar 8, 2013 12:10pm
Except they aren't. See the story about the woman getting out of the way of the ambulance. See the localities where you have to pay before you can fight a ticket. Etc. Etc. The taxpayers do not provide taxes just for a locality to sub out services to a for-profit company when they can do it themselves.Con_Alma;1402726 wrote:It's good that the company pushes the limit to enforce the law so long as they don't exceed the limit. If a City has never been able to fully enforce the law all the time and now has the ability, it's a good thing.
And localities are changing the turning right on red laws when they put in red light cameras in order to generate more revenue. I wouldn't be surprised if they are lowering speed limits for no reason in some areas where they put in speed cameras other than to generate revenue.Things like red light laws seem to have been in place prior to being fully enforced all the time. I am not of the opinion they were put into place for the purpose of generating revenue. If they can generate revenue that a good thing when considering it can help reduce the amount of tax revenue need to do so.
TedSheckler
Posts: 3,974
Mar 8, 2013 12:10pm
I don't like red light cameras. I hate not being able to tell the cop that I pay his salary.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Mar 8, 2013 12:18pm
I agree that's a problem. It should not be tolerated. It should be addressed. I don't think cameras should be done away with as opposed to addressing the issues with them.LJ;1402730 wrote:Except they aren't. See the story about the woman getting out of the way of the ambulance. See the localities where you have to pay before you can fight a ticket. Etc. Etc. The taxpayers do not provide taxes just for a locality to sub out services to a for-profit company when they can do it themselves. ...
I completely understand your concern regarding laws potentially being changed solely for the purpose of generating revenue. That doesn't mean the baby should be thrown out with the bath water. There were laws put into place before such technology was avaiable and they make good sense.LJ;1402730 wrote:...And localities are changing the turning right on red laws when they put in red light cameras in order to generate more revenue. I wouldn't be surprised if they are lowering speed limits for no reason in some areas where they put in speed cameras other than to generate revenue.
Getting rid of the tool instead of using the tool the right way doesn't seems like the prudent thing to do. It's why I support pushing the limit but not going over it.
Apple
Posts: 2,620
Mar 8, 2013 1:21pm
Not only should the baby be thrown out with the bath water, per se with regards to speed/traffic cameras, ANY politician who voted to have them installed should be thrown out of office!Con_Alma;1402734 wrote: I agree that's a problem. It should not be tolerated. It should be addressed. I don't think cameras should be done away with as opposed to addressing the issues with them.
I completely understand your concern regarding laws potentially being changed solely for the purpose of generating revenue. That doesn't mean the baby should be thrown out with the bath water. There were laws put into place before such technology was avaiable and they make good sense.
Getting rid of the tool instead of using the tool the right way doesn't seems like the prudent thing to do. It's why I support pushing the limit but not going over it.
justincredible
Posts: 32,056
Mar 8, 2013 1:30pm
Agreed.Apple;1402754 wrote:Not only should the baby be thrown out with the bath water, per se with regards to speed/traffic cameras, ANY politician who voted to have them installed should be thrown out of office!
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Mar 8, 2013 1:35pm
You have that ability with your vote. Those who agree with such cameras have the same vote ability.Apple;1402754 wrote:Not only should the baby be thrown out with the bath water, per se with regards to speed/traffic cameras, ANY politician who voted to have them installed should be thrown out of office!
Apple
Posts: 2,620
Mar 8, 2013 1:43pm
Lets just hope this one doesn't take as much to get rid of as slavery did.Con_Alma;1402763 wrote:You have that ability with your vote. Those who agree with such cameras have the same vote ability.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Mar 8, 2013 1:46pm
Apple;1402768 wrote:Lets just hope this one doesn't take as much to get rid of as slavery did.
...yeah, because they're really close to having the same type of humanitarian impact.
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WebFire
Posts: 14,779
Mar 8, 2013 2:03pm
I have no problem with cameras, or companies who install them getting paid, considering the following:
1. You are breaking the law. Pay a fine. Pretty simple.
2. You should have the option to review the infraction, as well as object to it and get a court date if needed, BEFORE paying the fine.
3. The company gets paid to install and maintain the devices. The city should be the ones who decide the enforcement settings for the device, not the company. I don't really care if it is a % of collected fines or a flat fee. It shouldn't affect the amount of tickets.
1. You are breaking the law. Pay a fine. Pretty simple.
2. You should have the option to review the infraction, as well as object to it and get a court date if needed, BEFORE paying the fine.
3. The company gets paid to install and maintain the devices. The city should be the ones who decide the enforcement settings for the device, not the company. I don't really care if it is a % of collected fines or a flat fee. It shouldn't affect the amount of tickets.
Apple
Posts: 2,620
Mar 8, 2013 2:04pm
Conman-
Nothing wrong with absurdity to demonstrate the absurd. Fact is, if its wrong, its wrong. It doesn't need a wrongfulness towards humanitarianism to make it wrong.
This was a total disregard to due process and the government overstepping its bounds.
I hope the village appeals and loses all the way to tSCOTUS and they throw out all speed/stop light cameras and all fines returned nationwide.
Nothing wrong with absurdity to demonstrate the absurd. Fact is, if its wrong, its wrong. It doesn't need a wrongfulness towards humanitarianism to make it wrong.
This was a total disregard to due process and the government overstepping its bounds.
I hope the village appeals and loses all the way to tSCOTUS and they throw out all speed/stop light cameras and all fines returned nationwide.
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sportchampps
Posts: 7,361
Mar 9, 2013 1:53am
All it's going to take is for someone to accuse the city of targeting a specific group of people. I know at most intersections near me the cameras only take pictures of cars traveling east and west or north and south but not all four directions. All someone would have to do is say the police are targeting them unfairly because they live in the direction the cameras face. I know this is how many other cities have got around them. In Columbus they are not currently at the intersections with the most reported accidents.
Also when your sitting at the intersections the flash from the cameras are almost blinding at night and are distractions.
Also when your sitting at the intersections the flash from the cameras are almost blinding at night and are distractions.
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sportchampps
Posts: 7,361
Mar 9, 2013 1:54am
Here are a few studies that show they actually increase accidents.
http://www.motorists.org/red-light-cameras/increase-accidents
http://www.motorists.org/red-light-cameras/increase-accidents
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sportchampps
Posts: 7,361
Mar 9, 2013 1:55am
[INDENT][/INDENT]Most studies have proven they decrease right angle crashes but increase read end crashes by a much higher rate
Also it's a money grab because there are no further punishments besides monetary. You don't get points on your driving record. The companies also admit a mistake rate somewhere betweent 4 and 40%
Also it's a money grab because there are no further punishments besides monetary. You don't get points on your driving record. The companies also admit a mistake rate somewhere betweent 4 and 40%
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Mar 9, 2013 6:04am
I agree with this. This is fair and reasonable.WebFire;1402782 wrote:I have no problem with cameras, or companies who install them getting paid, considering the following:
1. You are breaking the law. Pay a fine. Pretty simple.
2. You should have the option to review the infraction, as well as object to it and get a court date if needed, BEFORE paying the fine.
3. The company gets paid to install and maintain the devices. The city should be the ones who decide the enforcement settings for the device, not the company. I don't really care if it is a % of collected fines or a flat fee. It shouldn't affect the amount of tickets.
Mulva
Posts: 13,650
Mar 9, 2013 4:59pm
Haha what an absurd margin of error.sportchampps;1403008 wrote:The companies also admit a mistake rate somewhere betweent 4 and 40%
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gut
Posts: 15,058
Mar 9, 2013 8:28pm
I have two issues with it if the goal is safety:Con_Alma;1402734 wrote: I completely understand your concern regarding laws potentially being changed solely for the purpose of generating revenue. That doesn't mean the baby should be thrown out with the bath water. There were laws put into place before such technology was avaiable and they make good sense.
1) It's not nearly overt enough to accomplish that - besides the obvious difference of a cop stopping you and giving you a ticket, you actually have to really pay attention and/or do some homework to know where these cameras are.
2) If the goal is to prevent unsafe behavior, then the fines are really not remotely high enough. Lengthen the yellow and raise the fines and watch violations plummet (I'd like to see research on delays, because it seems when people learn about it the delay becomes an extended "yellow").
I guess what I'm saying is if the law has the good intention of promoting safety I don't see enforcement of the law as sufficient to accomplish that. As mentioned, some research indicates an INCREASE in accidents (rear end collisions).
But maybe it's all moot when in 15-20 years our cars all drive themselves.
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gut
Posts: 15,058
Mar 9, 2013 8:31pm
Playing devil's advocate, my only comment would be I'd like to see a study on the severity and injury rate. Seems more fender benders but less serious accidents would be a preferable outcome. Although I might guess that's not the case with many of those rear-end collisions being the front car slamming on the breaks while the rear car is accelerating to beat the light.sportchampps;1403008 wrote:Most studies have proven they decrease right angle crashes but increase read end crashes by a much higher rate
I'd be curious, as it relates to "revenue generation", to know if a 40% mistake rate isn't due to INTENTIONAL miscalibration.sportchampps;1403008 wrote: Also it's a money grab because there are no further punishments besides monetary. You don't get points on your driving record. The companies also admit a mistake rate somewhere betweent 4 and 40%
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Mar 9, 2013 8:39pm
1) you don't ever have to pay extra attention to study where the lights are. Just follow the traffic laws and lights...all of them.gut;1403271 wrote:I have two issues with it if the goal is safety:
1) It's not nearly overt enough to accomplish that - besides the obvious difference of a cop stopping you and giving you a ticket, you actually have to really pay attention and/or do some homework to know where these cameras are.
2) If the goal is to prevent unsafe behavior, then the fines are really not remotely high enough. Lengthen the yellow and raise the fines and watch violations plummet (I'd like to see research on delays, because it seems when people learn about it the delay becomes an extended "yellow").
I guess what I'm saying is if the law has the good intention of promoting safety I don't see enforcement of the law as sufficient to accomplish that. As mentioned, some research indicates an INCREASE in accidents (rear end collisions).
But maybe it's all moot when in 15-20 years our cars all drive themselves.
2) I don't know if the intent is to increase safely or not. It should be to simple enforce the law more often than they are able with officers.