Refman,

I completely understand where your coming from and, like I said, the rule is ambiguous and the argument will go on. No coach or wrestler or referee will ever agree 100% of the time. All I'm saying is if a certain referee is inclined to make a stalling call under a certain situation (blocking with an elbow on a tie up, for example) the time remaining or the score of the match should not come into account.

Paisan...ok.

Imagine...that the referee does not get to know the score or time remaining. Some (not many) can keep track of score in their heads. So....lets go to the finals of any tournament...any state final...any NCAA championship final, with very short time left...how many times have you seen the "soon to be winner" who is up by one...go backwards...almost running backwards...everyone in the arena knows NO REFEREE EVER will call that as stalling but...according to your statement...it should be. Now...if the above were true and it was called I would surmise that that type of stuff would stop....but we know that wont ever happen.

Every year my AD and I sit down and he ask me aboutofficials so he can fill out our online rating. Because we see so many different officials during the year its hard toremember who is who. Next season I'mgoing to try to get the names of every official at every meet so I can try togive them a fair assessment at the end of the season. I understand that officials are human and aregoing to make mistakes and some of the calls we have to live with.

Unlike some of my fellow coaches who scream and yell atofficials. I take on a differentapproach when (INQUIING) about a call or non-call that an official makes ordoesn't make. Here's how I've learned todo it: First I let it be known that I'm not questioning their call or lack of. I then ask the official to please explain tome how a certain criteria was or wasn’t achieved by me kid or the other kid. I tell them that I need to know what he/shedid or didn't see so I can coach my kids up on that particular situation at ournext practice. By using this approach I'vegained a few things first I don't get hit with a conduct call. Secondly I have a full understanding of whatthat official is looking at and why they made that particular call. Third there have been times when afterexplaining to me what they saw they have changed or made a different call. Finally, I get information to coach my kidsup on how that particular official calls matches. Lets face there are some officials when wesee them at a meet or tournament we remind our kids of some of their tendencies

80baby....the other thing that, that approach does for you is tell you what type of referee you are dealing with. If he gives you a straight, clear, precise answer I am sure you walk away thinking "ok, I understand". On the other hand, if you get a cocky remark or you get the understanding that this guy or gal has no clue...then I am sure you know not to ever bother because it wont do any good and...a bad referee's "go to" tool is the threat of points or ejection. I teach my classes...if a somerthing walks like a duck, acts like a duck and talks like a duck...you can rest assured it is a duck...same with referees...if they act like one...talk like one...and look like one...coaches will truly think they are one and will have a lot more confidence in their calls and decisions.

My Background: I wrestled in High School and College. I wrestled in Freestyle and Greco-Roman in the World Police and Fire Games after College.

I have been watching, coaching and participating in wrestling for over 30 years.

A few years ago at a match, while sitting in the stands giving my thoughts to a friend about the match, a ref on break overheard me and told me I should consider being a referee.
So at 44 years old, with a solid job as a negotiator and decision maker in a major organization, I decided to go to referee class. I feel Mr. Feeney prepared me very well and tested me. I did several 14 hour/day tournaments for free to get better at the mechanics. (I know the rules!).

Last year I did several tournaments as a class 2 referee. At one MS tournament, I was the senior referee out of 6 referees for 6 mats. Every complaint came to me. And this tournament was hard to fill because of the timing and pay. I made a little more in 14 hours than I make in one hour at my regular job...but I enjoyed every minute of it. I love wrestling and want to support it. I followed this up with a couple of MS matches at dual meets. Both were horrendous. At each Match, the 19 year old head coaches were out of control. They have no respect for the referee. Good, bad or indifferent, I was taught that you don't aggressively argue with the ref...especially as a wrestler. It happens more than it should. You all know it does!

Then I went to watch a HS Dual meet in the SW district. I was amazed at the difference in the way the referees were treated. There were some blown calls and it was obvious that one of the two refs was very new. But the coaches COACHED! They didn't spend their energy arguing with the referee. After several more experiences similar to this. I came to realize that the Central District is broken. It has become acceptable to argue and demean our referees, not realizing that they are all we have. If we, (as participants, coaches and spectators) don't support them to make them better, we will continue to be frustrated. Ask Mr. Feeney, there are not a lot of new referees breaking down the doors to become refs in the Central District.

I think I am a fair, calm referee with a focus on learning to get better. I had multiple requests for my services this year...but I decided I did not need the additional stress from a bunch of undereducated spectators and coaches who have little to no respect for my donation of time. I notified the Central District Referees of my concerns and sat on the sidelines.

MY point is this: The only way the Central District Referee situation is going to get better is to support the referees you DO have and realize they are going to make mistakes. (Don't give me the BS about ruining some kids life. I lost plenty of close ones. The lesson of wrestling was not in winning...it was in the commitment to personal accountability and excellence.)

Support the referee system and you may find that this thread disappears next year!

Good luck to all!

Thought provoking insight.

james_holter;1398343 wrote: Video shot during that scramble that shows things like the sidelines, the ceiling and other mats does exist, however...

Made me chuckle.....had a few of those too!

Dad4Sports;1398719 wrote:Made me chuckle.....had a few of those too!

Must be a Dad thing. I rarely got to see the end of any big finish! Good stuff.

MPhillips;1398727 wrote:Must be a Dad thing. I rarely got to see the end of any big finish! Good stuff.

To be honest most of those were when my wife had the camera......When I was filming, it kept me calm (relatively), and helped to keep my mouth shut!

Dad4Sports;1398732 wrote:To be honest most of those were when my wife had the camera......When I was filming, it kept me calm (relatively), and helped to keep my mouth shut!

The sad thing is I use a tripod.

Refman;1398372 wrote:lhuwrestler...Your statement that a front headlock is not stalling is amazing. In this clip..it is not stalling but I have seen it used as a stall many times. So you are telling me that if a kid is up by 1 pt...with 30 secs to go...puts on a front headlock and does nothing..is not stalling? Really?
Time and score does matter.

Huskerdoc...come on..you are smarter than this. I agree...holds are called in football regardless of the score or time (sometimes score does matter if it is a blowout)...but in wrestling...refs also call illegal hold regardless of time or score. So your comparison is flawed. Football does have an intentional delay of game..as wrestling has stalling.
Time and score matters because of this...IT IS AN INDICATOR OF WHAT COULD BE HAPPENING.
If a score is 14-0....am I really going to look at either for a stall call? Uh no. Will I call a locking hands or illegal hold with short time left? Every-time.
If it is 2-1, who is MORE apt to stall? Doesn't mean it will occur but the referee needs to be aware it could be.
Coaches TEACH kids to be less "active" when they have a small lead and time is short. You telling me you would teach a kid to continue to take shots in the middle of the mat and take the chance of being taken down or reversed versus taking it easy and not taking chances? Uh yeah. How many times have you seen a kid up by one or two, take a bad shot and then taken to his back to lose? Happens a lot...how do you get around that? Make it look like you are working when in fact you are hanging on (with a front headlock), which we call...stalling. Or...stay on the edge so if there is a shot...you can always use the OB as safe haven...yeah that doesn't happen with short time on the clock now does it?

Refman: I believe you took my statements out of context. There are situations in which using the front headlock is stalling. I agree with you on that. With 30 seconds left and the wrestler goes head in the hole to score isn't stalling. Hanging out and doing nothing is another thing. :

ihuwrestler....your statement "With 30 seconds left and the wrestler goes head in the hole to score isn't stalling." is wayyyyy to general and not true. Here is why....If wrestler A is leading by 1 with 30 left....what can he do to stifle wrestler B's effort score? Well..how about hanging on to a head and arm and let the clock run out? I see it all the time....short time and a 1 point difference is what we call "watching the guy with the rock in his hand". What's that mean? Simple...if you were a cop walking a beat and you saw a kid with a big rock his hand standing in front of a jewelry store...would you attention go to him? Sure it would...its the same with a wrestler winning by 1 point with short time. Agree?

Refman;1399506 wrote:ihuwrestler....your statement "With 30 seconds left and the wrestler goes head in the hole to score isn't stalling." is wayyyyy to general and not true. Here is why....If wrestler A is leading by 1 with 30 left....what can he do to stifle wrestler B's effort score? Well..how about hanging on to a head and arm and let the clock run out? I see it all the time....short time and a 1 point difference is what we call "watching the guy with the rock in his hand". What's that mean? Simple...if you were a cop walking a beat and you saw a kid with a big rock his hand standing in front of a jewelry store...would you attention go to him? Sure it would...its the same with a wrestler winning by 1 point with short time. Agree?

huh? i gotta back up lhuwrestler on this one. "head in the hole" isn't just hanging on. it's a move where you put your head in the other guys armpit and attempt to gain advantage. if a kid is running a "head in the hole" he is improving his position, or is attempting to, and is not stalling. the below vid shows this and if a kid is doing this it's not stalling nor is it a stalemate. a ref who calls stalemate while a kid is running this is either blind or biased...or he just doesn't understand what the kid is trying to do and in that case maybe he should spend more time watching rudimentary wrestling vids on youtube and learn some stuff...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loYrAetM2ls

Bump_and_run...I suggest you learn some rudimentary officiating techniques if you don't understand that if a kid is not able to improve he has to switch to something else..otherwise it could be considered stalling. I understand the move explicitly believe me...its not that hard for a good kid to hit..but a kid that wants to stall....will sit there with it and do nothing, or act as if he is doing something..refs see it all the time, especially if he is trying to hang on to a 1 point lead with less than 30 secs to go.

Refman;1399541 wrote:Bump_and_run...I suggest you learn some rudimentary officiating techniques if you don't understand that if a kid is not able to improve he has to switch to something else..otherwise it could be considered stalling. I understand the move explicitly believe me...its not that hard for a good kid to hit..but a kid that wants to stall....will sit there with it and do nothing, or act as if he is doing something..refs see it all the time, especially if he is trying to hang on to a 1 point lead with less than 30 secs to go.

if the kid with the front headlock just successfully blocked the other kid's arm, gets his head in the hole, starts to pivot and is starting to reach for the other kid's ankle, he is improving his position and this is NOT a stalemate. that's what happened in the clip we have been discussing when the ref called stalemate.

I can run a front head lock, put my head in the hole and chase the ankle all day and never catch if I want, even on a bad kid. I can stall with my head in the hole as well and "improve" my position. I was an average wrestler at best, so imagine what a good one could do. As Refman indicated, move to something else. I learned quickly that I actually had a decent throwby front headlock and made it a staple of my offense.

As a referee, this is a call you have to feel. I have no clue what video you are referencing. So I won't give a definitive answer to this specific situation, but if this was a situation that happened more than a few times in this match, I would also be quicker to call said situation a stalemate.

lol, we are not discussing a hypothetical. of course a kid COULD intentionally waste time by doing just about anything. i agree with you on that point.

just to fill you in, what i was discussing was a situation described by the words i wrote "if the kid with the front headlock just successfully blocked the other kid's arm, gets his head in the hole, starts to pivot and is starting to reach for the other kid's ankle, he is improving his position and this is NOT a stalemate."

note i did not write "a kid hanging out with his head in the hole chasing the ankle".

the situation i am referring to is a specific situation where the arm was blocked, the head in the hole was achieved and the ankle was being pursued over the course of about five seconds. The ref elected to call stalemate about two seconds after the kid got his head in the hole and started to reach for the ankle.

Jmar25;1399599 wrote: I have no clue what video you are referencing. So I won't give a definitive answer to this specific situation

From earlier in this thread....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRqQ-Geacws&feature=youtu.be

bump_and_run;1399611 wrote:
just to fill you in, what i was discussing was a situation described by the words i wrote "if the kid with the front headlock just successfully blocked the other kid's arm, gets his head in the hole, starts to pivot and is starting to reach for the other kid's ankle, he is improving his position and this is NOT a stalemate."

Could have gone all day, he was NOT going to get that ankle. The call was fine.

Bump_and_Run....

I will agree with you that it was a quick whistle....he blew his whistle just as the Watkins kid is reaching for the ankle. I understand the frustration a coach or parent feels when that occurs. How is that fixed....the referee has to ask himself "What is this kid working?" If the referee sees it...understands it...etc..there should be enough time to allow it to finish.
However....we are all human. Refs sometimes blow a quick whistle.

queencitybuckeye;1399633 wrote:Could have gone all day, he was NOT going to get that ankle. The call was fine.

lol... any call made by a ref that ANTICIPATES the future based on his analysis of somethign that has transpired for the last two seconds is bogus!!

queencitybuckeye;1399633 wrote:Could have gone all day, he was NOT going to get that ankle. The call was fine.

You can't say that. He was literally in the process of grabbing it. In that video, it doesn't look like they're in the front head lock position very long. Shot defense to an attempt at bowling the guy over, in their feet, snap to front head lock and then head in the hole. Lots of transitions it seemed.

bump_and_run;1399642 wrote:lol... any call made by a ref that ANTICIPATES the future based on his analysis of somethign that has transpired for the last two seconds is bogus!!

Wrong. You make an attempt that doesn't work, you move to something else. Right call.

Doesn't the responsibility of improving apply to both wrestlers? Just because a wrestlers is winning, he is not obligated to work harder than the other wrestler. That seems to be the way that a lot of refs see it. Why is the wrestler in the front headlock not doing anything. It is usually pretty obvious when a wrestlers is trying to get out of a position like a front headlock or when they are also hanging on.

Here is another way of looking at it. If a wrestlers is up by one point and they are stuck in a front headlock(defensive position) and neither wrestler is improving position, are they stalling then? It seems to me, it does not who is doing what. The main criteria a lot of refs use to determine stalling is if a wrestler is winning the match. I see the exact same refs call it both ways. Just like top and bottom stalling. If a wrestler is riding tough and winning, he is stalling. If a wrestler is on bottom being ridden tough, he is also stalling.

queencitybuckeye;1399647 wrote:Wrong. You make an attempt that doesn't work, you move to something else. Right call.

uhhh... you did not watch the video. the move WAS working. He blocked the arm, got his head in the hole and was reaching for the ankle over the course of five seconds or less. there was no stop in the action and he was continually improving. he was executing the move. the ref stopped it as he was reaching for the ankle. you are analyzing this as if they were sliding around the mat for 30 seconds with no imporvement. you are wrong.