BoatShoes;1746894 wrote:As I said previously, yes good public policy would try to get other market participants like automobile manufacturers and their consumers...alcohol distributors and their consumers...etc....bear the true economic cost of these activities.

Your rant about banning guns is spurious as I said I don't want that and that it is impossible in the U.S.

It has nothing to do with guilt. Firearms manufacturers and consumers are freeloading on the rest of society that pays for the costs of mass gun ownership. People can have all the guns they want just take responsibility and pay for the social costs they impose on everyone else.

Ohio recently raised taxes on cigarettes for these sorts of reasons - with the support of Governor Kasich.

Where the hell do I being this rant… so much to express

The only social costs is the destruction of cities via those same people that been freeloading on society as a career. That you continue to support. Support a long social welfare system that has failed the people it was to support, failed the society, destroyed family unit, encourage the mentality of poverty and the defraud the American public.

In your ideology then the government should be give back to the American public their tax money for failed programs and wasted, fraudulent pork programs … and that list can be never ending. Would government be exempt from such “bear the burden” ?

Those individual that use guns to commit crimes are not the responsible, legal and competent American license gun owning citizen…

When will you understand that it is the responsibility of the individual to adhere to the laws of the landed. It is not the responsibility of me as a gun owner or the company that produces the guns to be held financially burden for the action of criminal, crazy and career felons…

Who are those people that commit violent crimes with guns? Crazy, distraught, mentally ill, socially inept, career felons and life time entitlement recipients ..

Should the Federal Government take the responsibility of their own crime producing social welfare program and “bear the burden “ of the cost on the America society.
The Department of Education and Health for not providing a program to track potential mentality health and social inept individual to get more help after graduation. Should those Federal Department “bear the burden” of a failure to protect the public.

Boatshoe … you can’t prevent crazy from crazy … the best we can do is not to keep blaming everyone and everything for the crazy, criminal behavior. You can throw all the rules you want, all regulation, tax the hell out of the innocent good citizens … but the bottom line is simple Stop making or Blaming good citizen and good companies for crazy than fuck individuals.



Ohio recently raised taxes on cigarettes for these sorts of reasons - with the support of Governor Kasich.

I could careless I believe that the warning sign have been posted on smoking…. Individual took the risk… die without my help.
This money goes into a general fund and that cancer ridden smoker will see less at 1% of that tax money…

How about this program: Smoker have to have a smoker license $100.00 per year, must show their smoker card when purchasing cigarettes.
Smokers not entitled to Obamacare, smoker pay 5 more for health insurance, smoker more is taken out of your social security check for medical and more is removed from your pay check for medical while you’re employed…

As a tax payer I’m out of the situation and the smoker carries his or hers on ball…

I know this same could be applied to gun owner … “ Gun Owner Tax “ problem is I as a legally licensed, registered weapon owner individual not harming myself nor am I a burned to society.

Belly35;1747078 wrote:Where the hell do I being this rant… so much to express

The only social costs is the destruction of cities via those same people that been freeloading on society as a career. That you continue to support. Support a long social welfare system that has failed the people it was to support, failed the society, destroyed family unit, encourage the mentality of poverty and the defraud the American public.

In your ideology then the government should be give back to the American public their tax money for failed programs and wasted, fraudulent pork programs … and that list can be never ending. Would government be exempt from such “bear the burden” ?

Those individual that use guns to commit crimes are not the responsible, legal and competent American license gun owning citizen…

When will you understand that it is the responsibility of the individual to adhere to the laws of the landed. It is not the responsibility of me as a gun owner or the company that produces the guns to be held financially burden for the action of criminal, crazy and career felons…

Who are those people that commit violent crimes with guns? Crazy, distraught, mentally ill, socially inept, career felons and life time entitlement recipients ..

Should the Federal Government take the responsibility of their own crime producing social welfare program and “bear the burden “ of the cost on the America society.
The Department of Education and Health for not providing a program to track potential mentality health and social inept individual to get more help after graduation. Should those Federal Department “bear the burden” of a failure to protect the public.

Boatshoe … you can’t prevent crazy from crazy … the best we can do is not to keep blaming everyone and everything for the crazy, criminal behavior. You can throw all the rules you want, all regulation, tax the hell out of the innocent good citizens … but the bottom line is simple Stop making or Blaming good citizen and good companies for crazy than fuck individuals.

1. In the last month I have posted on this very website that I believe the welfare state characterized by income support should have never been created and I have advocated as much throughout my time here. I'm not surprised you haven't paid any attention.

2. Literally stop talking about your imaginary lifetime welfare recipients and lifetime criminals they have nothing to do with this thread.

3. I am talking about the old white man (such as yourself) in Huron County who was not a career criminal and was not on welfare who decided to go an shoot his neighbor because she mowed the lawn at 9pm.



This man was not a career criminal. He was a "law abiding gun owner" until he wasn't. He was not a burden on society until he was. He didn't harm anybody with his gun until he did. Oh, and if he had used a knife she might have had a fighting chance and the cops wouldn't have had to have a stand off until 5am and use tear gas to get him out.

It'd be nice if we didn't have to worry about the odd possibility that our neighbors might randomly shoot us but there's 320 million guns out there and the cat is out of the bag. Firearms manufacturers and distributors ought to at least pay something for the completely unnecessary carnage that stems from their distribution of a product with negligible if not negative marginal utility.

If said manufacturers try to pass those costs onto consumers - well Belly you have often told us how great of an entrepreneur you are - I am sure you could start an alternative business that did not pass on said cost to consumers.


This man was not a lifetime career criminal and entitlement recipient. Indeed, he almost kind of looks like somebody in this thread....hmmmmm....

BoatShoes;1747107 wrote:1. In the last month I have posted on this very website that I believe the welfare state characterized by income support should have never been created and I have advocated as much throughout my time here. I'm not surprised you haven't paid any attention.

2. Literally stop talking about your imaginary lifetime welfare recipients and lifetime criminals they have nothing to do with this thread.

3. I am talking about the old white man (such as yourself) in Huron County who was not a career criminal and was not on welfare who decided to go an shoot his neighbor because she mowed the lawn at 9pm.



This man was not a career criminal. He was a "law abiding gun owner" until he wasn't. He was not a burden on society until he was. He didn't harm anybody with his gun until he did. Oh, and if he had used a knife she might have had a fighting chance and the cops wouldn't have had to have a stand off until 5am and use tear gas to get him out.

It'd be nice if we didn't have to worry about the odd possibility that our neighbors might randomly shoot us but there's 320 million guns out there and the cat is out of the bag. Firearms manufacturers and distributors ought to at least pay something for the completely unnecessary carnage that stems from their distribution of a product with negligible if not negative marginal utility.

If said manufacturers try to pass those costs onto consumers - well Belly you have often told us how great of an entrepreneur you are - I am sure you could start an alternative business that did not pass on said cost to consumers.


This man was not a lifetime career criminal and entitlement recipient. Indeed, he almost kind of looks like somebody in this thread....hmmmmm....

4.5 million NRA members, one in every three Americans are legal gun owners .... one fucked up crazy and you want to fear for your life mowing your grass, change the busines and manufacturing to bear the burden....of the world ..

You needed to get out more and drink from a garden hose ..... Both could kill you but it taste so good..

Belly35;1747121 wrote:4.5 million NRA members, one in every three Americans are legal gun owners .... one fucked up crazy and you want to fear for your live mowing your grass, change the busines and manufacturing to bear the burden....of the world ..

You needed to get out more and drink from a garden hose ..... Both could kill you but it taste so good..

There is no evidence that this guy was crazy. Just a law abiding gun owner until he was 50 years old and then he got upset and had a gun nearby and then Huron County had to send in a small army to aprehend him while an innocent woman died.

Meanwhile that firearm provided him little to zero tangible value most likely and sure enough it has certainly cost him and huron county more than any value gained in the entire county from everybody else who owns a gun in the county.

And sorry no I'm not afraid of idiots killing me but I do find the fact that it is part of American life foreign to the rest of the civilized world to be absurd but it is what it is.

Again, nothing much we can do about it but gun manufacturers might at least take responsibility for the carnage wrought by their inherently dangerous products that provide negligible or negative utility to society.

Sell all the guns you want to people but at least acknowledge the costs.

BoatShoes;1747125 wrote:There is no evidence that this guy was crazy. Just a law abiding gun owner until he was 50 years old and then he got upset and had a gun nearby and then Huron County had to send in a small army to aprehend him while an innocent woman died.

Meanwhile that firearm provided him little to zero tangible value most likely and sure enough it has certainly cost him and huron county more than any value gained in the entire county from everybody else who owns a gun in the county.

And sorry no I'm not afraid of idiots killing me but I do find the fact that it is part of American life foreign to the rest of the civilized world to be absurd but it is what it is.

Again, nothing much we can do about it but gun manufacturers might at least take responsibility for the carnage wrought by their inherently dangerous products that provide negligible or negative utility to society.

Sell all the guns you want to people but at least acknowledge the costs.

1.) If what you just said there doesn't describe somebody who is off their nut, then nothing else will. Your description is a good indicator that somebody is nuts.

2.) Can you explain this bolded section in greater detail, please?

CenterBHSFan;1747154 wrote:1.) If what you just said there doesn't describe somebody who is off their nut, then nothing else will. Your description is a good indicator that somebody is nuts.

2.) Can you explain this bolded section in greater detail, please?

Sorry CBHSF I'm thinking BS just ran out of BS

CenterBHSFan;1747154 wrote:1.) If what you just said there doesn't describe somebody who is off their nut, then nothing else will. Your description is a good indicator that somebody is nuts.

2.) Can you explain this bolded section in greater detail, please?

The man was not clinically insane. He was your average, stupid human being who nevertheless was a "good guy with a gun" and a "law abiding citizen" for 50 years until he wasn't.

Basically no different than Belly35 until the failures of human rationality got the best of him and he killed somone with a squeeze of his trigger finger.

2. The bolded section is in reerence to other western countries like Canada which has 50 senseless hand gun deaths per year and no mass shootings whereas we have over 10,000 senseless hand gun deaths per year and multiple mass shootings.

P.S. don't bring up deaths in cars or showers...cars, sewage and showers add massive amounts of prosperity to socieities and the benefits outweigh the costs.

Firearms provide negligible prosperity and probably are a net loss...and this is what free market participants that underwrite risk believe.

BoatShoes;1747261 wrote:He was your average, stupid human being who nevertheless was a "good guy with a gun" and a "law abiding citizen" for 50 years until he wasn't.

A talking point argument that is factually proven wrong by multiple sets of statistics. One example is that the crime rate of CHL holders is 17 times lower than that of the population at large, and over an order of magnitude lower than sworn officers of the law. They are good guys and statistics prove that other that with rare exception, they always will be good guys. The bad guys are far more likely to be bad guys who simply have not committed their heinous act. Yet.

queencitybuckeye;1747265 wrote:A talking point argument that is factually proven wrong by multiple sets of statistics. One example is that the crime rate of CHL holders is 17 times lower than that of the population at large, and over an order of magnitude lower than sworn officers of the law. They are good guys and statistics prove that other that with rare exception, they always will be good guys. The bad guys are far more likely to be bad guys who simply have not committed their heinous act. Yet.

So nobody should be able to buy a hand gun unless they are subject to the type of scrutiny as those who obtain a concealed carry license and are subject to government regulation since they are less likely to kill people than people who just go and buy a hand gun.

Sounds good to me.

When criminals have illegal guns ... Criminal ......... crime and murder happens

When legal citizen own guns ... Legal ... Citizens .... Crime and murder rate drops

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/09/01/summer-crime-killings-soar-in-big-us-cities-amid-debate-over-policing/

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/08/25/detroit-police-chief-less-crime-home-invasions-way-down-amid-rising-gun-ownership


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/16/detroit-police-chief-no-question-my-mind-legal-gun/

Belly35;1748276 wrote:When criminals have illegal guns ... Criminal ......... crime and murder happens

When legal citizen own guns ... Legal ... Citizens .... Crime and murder rate drops

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/09/01/summer-crime-killings-soar-in-big-us-cities-amid-debate-over-policing/

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/08/25/detroit-police-chief-less-crime-home-invasions-way-down-amid-rising-gun-ownership


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/16/detroit-police-chief-no-question-my-mind-legal-gun/

"States with tough gun laws have fewer shooting deaths"

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/states-tough-gun-laws-shooting-deaths-study-article-1.2343815

Hawaii had the lowest number of gun-linked deaths — 2.5 per 100,000 people — in the country in 2013, said the National Journal, a public policy magazine and website.The Aloha State also places serious restrictions on gun buyers and owners: Permits are required to purchase handguns, as are background checks and a 14-day waiting period. In Hawaii, it is also relatively difficult to get either a concealed- or open-carry permit, according to the study.
The reverse of all that is generally true of Alaska, which had the highest rate of gun deaths: 19.8 per 100,000 people in 2013. Alaska doesn’t require permits or background checks to buy or carry guns, and there is no waiting period to obtain a firearm.
That same year in Virginia, where gun laws are less restrictive — and where TV news reporter Alison Parker and videographer Adam Ward were gunned down while live on air by a deranged ex-colleague last week — there were 10.2 gun deaths per capita, making it the state with the 19th-fewest gun-related deaths.

What a surprise - Hawaii has strong gun control and they aren't surrounded by states with lax gun control and they are able to reduce gun violence whereas states like New York and Illinois have their laws undermined by states like Pennsylvania and Indiana.

And for good measure - person who was a non-criminal (until they weren't...you know a "law abiding gun owner" until they have the gun nearby when they are having a domestic dispute) killed one person, injured another and killed themselves.

http://www.cleveland19.com/story/29937094/2-dead-after-domestic-incident-in-twinsburg



I like QCB's argument - people who both to get Concealed Carry Licenses are less likely to kill people than people who just go and by guns so let's regulate all gun purchases like we regulate concealed carry licenses. : thumbup:

BoatShoes;1748302 wrote:"States with tough gun laws have fewer shooting deaths"

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/states-tough-gun-laws-shooting-deaths-study-article-1.2343815




What a surprise - Hawaii has strong gun control and they aren't surrounded by states with lax gun control and they are able to reduce gun violence whereas states like New York and Illinois have their laws undermined by states like Pennsylvania and Indiana.

And for good measure - person who was a non-criminal (until they weren't...you know a "law abiding gun owner" until they have the gun nearby when they are having a domestic dispute) killed one person, injured another and killed themselves.

http://www.cleveland19.com/story/29937094/2-dead-after-domestic-incident-in-twinsburg



I like QCB's argument - people who both to get Concealed Carry Licenses are less likely to kill people than people who just go and by guns so let's regulate all gun purchases like we regulate concealed carry licenses. : thumbup:

BoatShoe ... It’s a fucking island no where to run, no where to go ..... It’s a fucking retirement, vacation state and an island .... what to kill someone in Hawaii rent a boat

Comparing Hawaii crime rate to other states is like comparing Ohio shark attack rate to Hawaii…

Criminals dislike two things ... getting caught (island) and citizen with guns (being killed)

Here is the level of Anti-gun stupidity;

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/09/01/gun-control-groups-accused-swatting-open-carry-permit-holders-putting-lives-at/?intcmp=hpbt2

So Anti-Gun what other freaked out citizen to call 911 on open carry legal citizens. Note to Anti-Gun .. Criminal don’t want you to know they have a guns nor do they want to draw attention to the fact they have a gun... Criminal will not be open carring...
Now if a would be criminal is in the area to commit a crime they will be think twice if they see a citizen carrying. Please note if you’re open carry or conceal carry you better be ready to use what you got.

Waste the time and services of the police department to protect other citizens because of your self centered, lazy ass idea… mentality.
Shut the fuck up and get you ass on the street and get signature of others that think like you, get your half ass I’ll say anything to get your vote politician to support you.

Belly35;1748328 wrote:Here is the level of Anti-gun stupidity;

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/09/01/gun-control-groups-accused-swatting-open-carry-permit-holders-putting-lives-at/?intcmp=hpbt2

So Anti-Gun what other freaked out citizen to call 911 on open carry legal citizens. Note to Anti-Gun .. Criminal don’t want you to know they have a guns nor do they want to draw attention to the fact they have a gun... Criminal will not be open carring...
Now if a would be criminal is in the area to commit a crime they will be think twice if they see a citizen carrying. Please note if you’re open carry or conceal carry you better be ready to use what you got.

Waste the time and services of the police department to protect other citizens because of your self centered, lazy ass idea… mentality.
Shut the fuck up and get you ass on the street and get signature of others that think like you, get your half ass I’ll say anything to get your vote politician to support you.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/09/01/the-worst-horrific-scene-tenn-man-accused-of-shooting-mother-stepfather-grandmother-in-front-of-6-kids/?tid=pm_national_pop_b




This 19 year old non-criminal with no history of mental illness became a criminal real fast with an easily obtainable hand gun laying around and 100 rounds of ammunition. Too bad Mom, Dad, Grandma and all the other little youngsters - the "good guys" - didn't have guns on their hips to protect themselves from their brother/son/grandson - The "bad guy" with a gun.

The 19-year-old walked up the long driveway to his family’s home Saturday evening armed with 100 rounds of ammunition and clad in camouflage clothing. He slipped in through the back door, and with six children looking on — most of them his siblings — he allegedly fatally shot his mother, stepfather and grandmother, according to police.

What a country where a 19 year old can get his hands on 100 rounds of ammo - probably easier than he could get a case of Busch Light.

Nothing says Freedom like the Freedom to have your whole family efficiently gunned down and it's just another day in the U.S.A.

Belly35;1748324 wrote:BoatShoe ... It’s a fucking island no where to run, no where to go ..... It’s a fucking retirement, vacation state and an island .... what to kill someone in Hawaii rent a boat

Comparing Hawaii crime rate to other states is like comparing Ohio shark attack rate to Hawaii…

Criminals dislike two things ... getting caught (island) and citizen with guns (being killed)

So let's turn the whole United States into an Island then and enact Hawaii's laws nation-wide and build Donald Trump's border wall. That would be enough for me and Hawaii's laws must be Constitutional so we wouldn't violate the 2nd Amendment to enact them nationwide.

Again - sportsmen, guys who carry, people who are really, really into guns - these people know and comply with regulations and they aren't the problem. It's people who take advantage of our very lax gun laws and go buy guns or ammo when they are pissed off because it is easy to do that cause problems. We could make it some what burdensome (i.e. time place and manner restrictions on the 1st Amendment...ultrasounds and waiting periods on abortions, etc.) without undue burdens and try to encourage the firearms market to self-regulate a little more and hopefully the people who go and kill folks will just go get drunk instead or play videogames instead.

Personally, I don't really think I'm advocating "gun control" per se.

I am advocating idiot and nut job control. People who go through the annoying process of getting CCW's, and are firearms enthusiasts etc. almost universally are not the problem. If we could somehow get them on board to try and make things better instead of them just throwing up their hands and saying "nothing we can do about it" which is false - then we might be able to actually make progress.

But, as I have said before - I really think Diane Feinstein and Co. ruined this issue with the AWB.

BoatShoes;1747125 wrote: Again, nothing much we can do about it but gun manufacturers might at least take responsibility for the carnage wrought by their inherently dangerous products that provide negligible or negative utility to society.

"negligible or negative utility to society" ------ JUST WOW!

Just because you are unable or unwilling to acknowledge the priceless gift of freedom and liberty that all of our society is blessed with because of our armed citizenry which deters government tyranny, don't go spewing your completely baseless and false musings in an attempt to justify your 'liberal feelings'.