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bump_and_run
Posts: 321
Feb 14, 2013 4:17pm
bitters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BittersBitterrunner-up;1389316 wrote:I think the correct term is Bitter runners up.
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Dsmith
Posts: 6
Feb 14, 2013 4:18pm
Why not keep it simple.
SP, SQ, DQ, Sectional Placer, Record, Head to Head
If there are 3 District qualifiers in a weight class - that's 1-2-3
That doesn't seem to be the case in Central Ohio for whatever reason. If a Freshman has a 20-5 record and a returning DQ has a 18-7 the freshman is getting the higher seed here because he has higher Crit. % or because the coaches voted? Tournaments are usually based off of past winners, sp,sq,dq etc.. then record as the latter criteria
SP, SQ, DQ, Sectional Placer, Record, Head to Head
If there are 3 District qualifiers in a weight class - that's 1-2-3
That doesn't seem to be the case in Central Ohio for whatever reason. If a Freshman has a 20-5 record and a returning DQ has a 18-7 the freshman is getting the higher seed here because he has higher Crit. % or because the coaches voted? Tournaments are usually based off of past winners, sp,sq,dq etc.. then record as the latter criteria
nykc
Posts: 276
Feb 14, 2013 4:21pm
I guess the end result would make for a tougher district road should a deserving 2-3 seed get 4th and lose in semi's but the cream does eventually rise to the top.
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Ellison
Posts: 37
Feb 14, 2013 4:24pm
Dsmith;1389337 wrote:Why not keep it simple.
SP, SQ, DQ, Sectional Placer, Record, Head to Head
If there are 3 District qualifiers in a weight class - that's 1-2-3
That doesn't seem to be the case in Central Ohio for whatever reason. If a Freshman has a 20-5 record and a returning DQ has a 18-7 the freshman is getting the higher seed here because he has higher Crit. % or because the coaches voted? Tournaments are usually based off of past winners, sp,sq,dq etc.. then record as the latter criteria
Should the Freshman be seeded last if he wrestled everyone onf them and couple of state placers in the bracket and teched them all? It's really not fair for a freshman to get no recognition simply because he was an 8th grader the previous year. (No I don't have a freshman this year)
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queencitybuckeye
Posts: 7,117
Feb 14, 2013 4:35pm
If he's that good, he'll win regardless of seeding.Ellison;1389341 wrote:Should the Freshman be seeded last if he wrestled everyone onf them and couple of state placers in the bracket and teched them all? It's really not fair for a freshman to get no recognition simply because he was an 8th grader the previous year. (No I don't have a freshman this year)
To add to my earlier questions, is there any data that suggests this method of seeding is more accurate based on outcome than those of the other areas of the state?
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Dad4Sports
Posts: 1,779
Feb 14, 2013 5:45pm
no.....that's not how it works. The record (criteria) has nothing to do with it. From what I've heard (never been in a meeting), the director throws open a weight. The floor is open to any coaches that want to put up a wrestler for the top seed. He has the opportunity to make his case (previous placements, record, strength-of-schedule, etc.). So let's assume there are 2 kids nominated....after the discussion has ended, it is put to a coaches vote. Then this is repeated......don't know if they go past the 4th seed or not.....but you get the idea.Dsmith;1389337 wrote:If a Freshman has a 20-5 record and a returning DQ has a 18-7 the freshman is getting the higher seed here because he has higher Crit. % or because the coaches voted?
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Ellison
Posts: 37
Feb 14, 2013 6:35pm
Since the best will always win regardless of seeding (and they will), it kinda makes seeding a waste of time.queencitybuckeye;1389346 wrote:If he's that good, he'll win regardless of seeding.
To add to my earlier questions, is there any data that suggests this method of seeding is more accurate based on outcome than those of the other areas of the state?
bribacker51
Posts: 573
Feb 14, 2013 6:55pm
One note to add for a coach to put up a wrestler for seed he must have a winning record.Dad4Sports;1389387 wrote:no.....that's not how it works. The record (criteria) has nothing to do with it. From what I've heard (never been in a meeting), the director throws open a weight. The floor is open to any coaches that want to put up a wrestler for the top seed. He has the opportunity to make his case (previous placements, record, strength-of-schedule, etc.). So let's assume there are 2 kids nominated....after the discussion has ended, it is put to a coaches vote. Then this is repeated......don't know if they go past the 4th seed or not.....but you get the idea.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Feb 14, 2013 7:08pm
...with a specified minimum number of matches wrestled.bribacker51;1389411 wrote:One note to add for a coach to put up a wrestler for seed he must have a winning record.
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Cthelites
Posts: 1,951
Feb 14, 2013 7:42pm
the best yes, but when 4 get out, 3 of them will have at least 1 loss.Ellison;1389402 wrote:Since the best will always win regardless of seeding (and they will), it kinda makes seeding a waste of time.
Seeding is huge when you are looking at that 4 spot!
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Dad4Sports
Posts: 1,779
Feb 14, 2013 8:28pm
Yes.....doesn't matter much to the #1 or#2 where they are is seeded. However, to the rest, the seeding can make the difference of getting out or not getting outCthelites;1389435 wrote:the best yes, but when 4 get out, 3 of them will have at least 1 loss.
Seeding is huge when you are looking at that 4 spot!
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Coach Ramirez
Posts: 232
Feb 14, 2013 10:56pm
If you don't get out of central Ohio sectionals, you probably don't deserve too advance. Just keep working harder to change things next year!
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Bitterrunner-up
Posts: 632
Feb 15, 2013 6:53am
Bingo.Coach Ramirez;1389551 wrote:If you don't get out of central Ohio sectionals, you probably don't deserve too advance. Just keep working harder to change things next year!
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lowsingle174
Posts: 575
Feb 15, 2013 8:21am
This^Coach Ramirez;1389551 wrote:If you don't get out of central Ohio sectionals, you probably don't deserve too advance. Just keep working harder to change things next year!
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Ellison
Posts: 37
Feb 15, 2013 8:31am
Cthelites;1389435 wrote:the best yes, but when 4 get out, 3 of them will have at least 1 loss.
Seeding is huge when you are looking at that 4 spot!
Thank you! AGREE!!!! (You missed my sarcasm, sir.) Some are concerned about upstart Freshmen being seeded higher than DQs. If I were a coach and my kid was a 3 time DQ and this Freshman had teched my guy... I'd be the first one voting that the Freshman be seeded. If my kid is number 1 seed and the unseeded Freshman beats him first round, now he's a 3 or 4 instead of a 2.
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rassler
Posts: 159
Feb 15, 2013 9:42am
Much ado about nothing. Most are 6 and 8 man brackets and this isn't The Big Ten. Is there really any weight classes this week where a solid state qualifier is not getting out to Darby?
nykc
Posts: 276
Feb 15, 2013 10:47am
Not in these watered down sectionals, the bigger issue is the 1 v 4, 2 v 3 dynamic. You want to get out at #2 in the sectional at worse in some weights and in order to do that being 4 is not an option. It has an impact of who you wrestle first in districts.
120 for example:
I would rather face Gasca than Rahmani in the semis at Marysville
I would rather face Terry than Timchenko in semis at Watkins
I would rather face Fluty than Wimer at Westland in semis
I would rather face Valenti than Penzone at Pick N. in semis
Better shot at number 2 than number 1 in these weight classes, and I would rather wrestle the No. 3 guy than 1 or 2 come districts because the odds are I can win some more matches that way
120 for example:
I would rather face Gasca than Rahmani in the semis at Marysville
I would rather face Terry than Timchenko in semis at Watkins
I would rather face Fluty than Wimer at Westland in semis
I would rather face Valenti than Penzone at Pick N. in semis
Better shot at number 2 than number 1 in these weight classes, and I would rather wrestle the No. 3 guy than 1 or 2 come districts because the odds are I can win some more matches that way
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rassler
Posts: 159
Feb 15, 2013 12:19pm
Not sure if anybody has told you yet, but you are going to face a #1 or a #2 Friday night at Darby regardless.nykc;1389743 wrote:Not in these watered down sectionals, the bigger issue is the 1 v 4, 2 v 3 dynamic. You want to get out at #2 in the sectional at worse in some weights and in order to do that being 4 is not an option. It has an impact of who you wrestle first in districts.
120 for example:
I would rather face Gasca than Rahmani in the semis at Marysville
I would rather face Terry than Timchenko in semis at Watkins
I would rather face Fluty than Wimer at Westland in semis
I would rather face Valenti than Penzone at Pick N. in semis
Better shot at number 2 than number 1 in these weight classes, and I would rather wrestle the No. 3 guy than 1 or 2 come districts because the odds are I can win some more matches that way
nykc
Posts: 276
Feb 15, 2013 12:28pm
That's kind of the point.. Face them at Darby! Why would you want to face them in the semi's at sectionals can you elaborate for me, what are the benefits to being 4th seed at sectionals?
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Coach Hennosy
Posts: 89
Feb 15, 2013 12:31pm
"Not in these watered down sectionals, the bigger issue is the 1 v 4, 2 v 3 dynamic."
come on it can't be that big of a deal ... some here keep stating if your good you make it anyway. :huh:
As a coach, there are two types of kids. The young one, I want to get to districts for the experience. The great one, I want to get to states. I want to use any way possible, short of cheating, to get them there. I don't care if my kid is good enough or just damn lucky. Seeding / line placement can be the last little piece of coaching I can do to get the job done.
come on it can't be that big of a deal ... some here keep stating if your good you make it anyway. :huh:
As a coach, there are two types of kids. The young one, I want to get to districts for the experience. The great one, I want to get to states. I want to use any way possible, short of cheating, to get them there. I don't care if my kid is good enough or just damn lucky. Seeding / line placement can be the last little piece of coaching I can do to get the job done.
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rassler
Posts: 159
Feb 15, 2013 12:40pm
nykc;1389808 wrote:That's kind of the point.. Face them at Darby! Why would you want to face them in the semi's at sectionals can you elaborate for me, what are the benefits to being 4th seed at sectionals?
Are you one of those guys that would prefer to have the top 4 all at one sectional (ie, 138 Marysville) and your kid face no competition until Darby? Is that what you are trying to say? What does that accomplish? In the end, seeds mean NOTHING. Sectionals do nothing more than qualify you for a spot on a predetermined line in a bracket at Darby. In the end, even your designated line means NOTHING. History is filled with 4s over 1s and 3s or 2s and so on. The better kids will win whether the qualify as a 4 or a 2. Being a #1 or #2 really means nothing. The top 4 placers get out based on performance. It really is that simple. Roll them out and lets go.
This thread officially kicks off the silly season.
nykc
Posts: 276
Feb 15, 2013 12:50pm
Why not have the 1 and 2 seed meet in the semis then since seeds mean NOTHING? I am trying to understand your logic and I am sorry but it just does not compute...
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rassler
Posts: 159
Feb 15, 2013 1:00pm
That very scenario of the top two kids meeting in the semis could happen in a lot of weights at Darby as there is no seeding. Never hear anybody complain because if they are the two best kids, they will qualify for a line on a bracket the next week at The Schott were ironically they also do not seed. Jake Ryan vs Forrider last year comes to mind.
The reason it doesn't compute is because I get the feeling that you can not wrap yourself around the idea that the sectionals are ridiculously soft and only serve as a qualifier for a continuing tournament that does not seed after its opening weekend. All preceived injustices can be rectified next weekend by outperforming your opponents.
The reason it doesn't compute is because I get the feeling that you can not wrap yourself around the idea that the sectionals are ridiculously soft and only serve as a qualifier for a continuing tournament that does not seed after its opening weekend. All preceived injustices can be rectified next weekend by outperforming your opponents.
nykc
Posts: 276
Feb 15, 2013 1:08pm
40 kids 4 sectionals, 16 move on -
then 4 from 1 District... Process of elimination that is the point.
The goal should be to have 16 good/decent wrestlers moving on to districts not 10 good wrestlers and 5 average joes and 1 that don't belong...
then 4 from 1 District... Process of elimination that is the point.
The goal should be to have 16 good/decent wrestlers moving on to districts not 10 good wrestlers and 5 average joes and 1 that don't belong...
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capthook
Posts: 33
Feb 15, 2013 3:07pm
I think little Joey should come out and wrestle hard and hopefully he is one of the 4 moving on. Good to all the boys who busted their butts all season for this post season and may the best man win.nykc;1389836 wrote:40 kids 4 sectionals, 16 move on -
then 4 from 1 District... Process of elimination that is the point.
The goal should be to have 16 good/decent wrestlers moving on to districts not 10 good wrestlers and 5 average joes and 1 that don't belong...