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sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Feb 13, 2013 9:48 AM
O-Trap;1388148 wrote:Not that I vilify the practice itself, but using your context, this could just as easily read:

"assume based on appearance"

I didn't think appearance alone constituted proof.
Really? Tell that to the believers. The irony is appalling and laughable.
Feb 13, 2013 9:48am
Dr Winston O'Boogie's avatar

Dr Winston O'Boogie

Senior Member

1,799 posts
Feb 13, 2013 10:27 AM
sleeper;1388247 wrote:Really? Tell that to the believers. The irony is appalling and laughable.
Sleeper, I don't begrudge you your efforts to convince believers that your position is correct. I personally wrestle with questions of faith and I see the logic and merit of the secular worldview.

That said, your condecension towards believers takes away all of your credibility. You think you are smart because you can quickly site facts that support your argument. And you continually mock those who believe - writing them all off as victims of parental abuse. That is such a simplistic, black and white viewpoint.

I am currently reading a biography of Robert Ingeroll. He did as much to progress the humanist movement in this country during the latter 19th century as anyone. He was a gifted orator who probably could have made a run at the White House were he not an outspoken athiest. He was certainly brilliant. In his effoirts to persuade, he acknowledged the belief of his opponents. He acknowledged that their belief was held for all variety of reasons, only one being that this is what they were taught as children. He also acknowledged the intellectual stripes of many of his opponents. He understood that while his position was correct to him, it too required some level of faith.

I suspect some of your efforts here are in part to get a response. That's fine for an internet forum. But I encourage you to grow up when it comes to evaluating your own "brilliance" in comparison to others. The great odds are that you're not nearly as clever as you think you are and those who attend church ever Sunday are not as stupid as you contend.
Feb 13, 2013 10:27am
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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27,879 posts
Feb 13, 2013 10:38 AM
If one is being condescending by using facts, logic, and reason to construct an argument that directly counters the beliefs of others who base it purely on conjecture, faith, and youthful indoctrination, then I'll be condescending until the day I go into the dirt.
Feb 13, 2013 10:38am
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Feb 13, 2013 11:05 AM
sleeper;1388247 wrote:Really? Tell that to the believers. The irony is appalling and laughable.

The difference, I would say, is that those espousing an ideational worldview don't claim that their own views are based on rigorous scientific scrutiny. Those who espouse sensate worldviews in our current time tend to. So, would it be ironic to see an ideational worldview believe something without basing it on just how things look? Not necessarily.

Would it, however, be ironic to see a modern sensate worldview do the same thing? If they are belligerent about their view, then I would say it does.

To accuse others of being out of touch with the truth, claim that scientific discovery is the only means of knowledge, and then to suggest that assumptions based on appearance constitute scientific proof is ... well ... seemingly hypocritical.
sleeper;1388284 wrote:If one is being condescending by using facts, logic, and reason to construct an argument that directly counters the beliefs of others who base it purely on conjecture, faith, and youthful indoctrination, then I'll be condescending until the day I go into the dirt.
Logic and reason are as much philosophical disciplines as scientific. Do you think one can know something based on a philosophical construct, without scientific substantiation?

Moreover, is assuming something based on appearance your definition of using facts, logic, and reason? I'm just asking, because I'm willing to bet that if someone used the same plum line to assert an opposing view, you'd shit all over it.
Feb 13, 2013 11:05am
Dr Winston O'Boogie's avatar

Dr Winston O'Boogie

Senior Member

1,799 posts
Feb 13, 2013 11:08 AM
sleeper;1388284 wrote:If one is being condescending by using facts, logic, and reason to construct an argument that directly counters the beliefs of others who base it purely on conjecture, faith, and youthful indoctrination, then I'll be condescending until the day I go into the dirt.
I'm not talking about using facts an logic. I'm talking about insulting people who hold a different belief in you.
Feb 13, 2013 11:08am
J

jmog

Senior Member

6,567 posts
Feb 13, 2013 11:10 AM
sleeper;1388246 wrote:Way to dodge the facts when they hit you right in the mouth.
I have yet to dodge anything, you my friend tend to dodge and throw in ad hominem attacks when something said fits logically but doesn't fit what you believe.
Feb 13, 2013 11:10am
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Feb 13, 2013 11:26 AM
Dr Winston O'Boogie;1388315 wrote:I'm not talking about using facts an logic. I'm talking about insulting people who hold a different belief in you.
Richard Dawkins, 2008 wrote:We should be offended when children are denied a proper education. We should be offended when children are told they will spend eternity in hell. We should be offended when medical science, for example stem-cell research, is compromised by the bigoted opinions of powerful and above all well-financed ignoramuses. We should be offended when voodoo, of all kinds, is given equal weight to science. We should be offended by hymen reconstruction surgery. We should be offended by 'female circumcision', euphemism for genital mutilation. We should be offended by stoning.
..
Feb 13, 2013 11:26am
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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Feb 13, 2013 11:30 AM
Moreover, is assuming something based on appearance your definition of using facts, logic, and reason? I'm just asking, because I'm willing to bet that if someone used the same plum line to assert an opposing view, you'd shit all over it.
Appearance isn't the sole determining factor. It's the brevity, depth and overwhelming amount of scientific research that points to one conclusion and is constantly under attack by those who espouse no evidence other than irrationality and downright ignorance.
Feb 13, 2013 11:30am
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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Feb 13, 2013 11:33 AM
jmog;1388317 wrote:I have yet to dodge anything, you my friend tend to dodge and throw in ad hominem attacks when something said fits logically but doesn't fit what you believe.
It's called faith jmog. You of all people should understand that one doesn't need evidence to draw a conclusion; just faith.

My suggestion is that next time you encounter significant harm or disease, don't go to the hospital where science, built on the same logical pathway that evolution is based on, will save your life. Just pray to god, he'll solve all your problems. :cool:
Feb 13, 2013 11:33am
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

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Feb 13, 2013 11:50 AM
sleeper;1388339 wrote:Appearance isn't the sole determining factor. It's the brevity, depth and overwhelming amount of scientific research that points to one conclusion and is constantly under attack by those who espouse no evidence other than irrationality and downright ignorance.
First, I'm not even attacking the reasons for asserting it as the likely truth. I'm suggesting that much of what people are calling "science" doesn't seem to be, a lot of times. Looking at the similarity between physiological characteristics doesn't inherently imply relation. DNA does, of course, but with so many of the fossils we see, the DNA has long since been gone.

So, I am absolutely okay with the view that the appearance of fossils, as well as the modern observation of environmentally-based physiological changes on a non-speciation scale (that's really annoying to say, but you apparently don't like the term "microevolution") might lead one to deduce that speciation eventually takes place and accounts for the diversity of living organisms today. I think it's exactly what happened, but both require some level of assumption (that appearance dictates genetic relation and that physiological diversification will eventually lead to full speciation), so let's not pretend it's the same as saying 2 + 2 = 4.
Feb 13, 2013 11:50am
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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Feb 13, 2013 12:03 PM
Ironic that direct observation is required for a minuscule scientific theory, but faith is the only thing you need to live your entire life by.

Like I said, we can extract DNA from every living object on the planet as it stands right now. Taking the DNA similarities between species, it's fairly easy to draw the conclusion that "macro" evolution occurs, although much more slowly than so called "micro" evolution. The two are the same, and the goalposts are moved because it stands and smiles right in the face of those that preach that "God did it!" with zero evidence to the contrary. Religion is bliss, ignorance is bliss, religion by definition is IGNORANCE.
Feb 13, 2013 12:03pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

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Feb 13, 2013 12:17 PM
sleeper;1388356 wrote:Ironic that direct observation is required for a minuscule scientific theory, but faith is the only thing you need to live your entire life by.
First, faith is not what I base my belief on, so I'm not sure why you insist on using an untrue stereotype.

Second, the direct observation is required from someone who asserts that direct observation is the only way of knowing something. If that isn't the only epistemological tool I espouse, then why would it be ironic if I, myself, didn't use it? It wouldn't, because I have professed no such rule about knowledge. It WOULD be, and is, ironic if a person who DOES assert that it is the only mode to knowledge if his own beliefs on other subjects don't reflect it.
sleeper;1388356 wrote:Like I said, we can extract DNA from every living object on the planet as it stands right now. Taking the DNA similarities between species, it's fairly easy to draw the conclusion that "macro" evolution occurs, although much more slowly than so called "micro" evolution.
"... it's easy to draw the conclusion ..."

Because they are similar? Again, not that I disagree, but what scientific proof determines that if two things are similar, they must have a common root? Or, differently put, what in science suggests that two similar things could not have arisen separately?
sleeper;1388356 wrote:The two are the same, and the goalposts are moved because it stands and smiles right in the face of those that preach that "God did it!" with zero evidence to the contrary. Religion is bliss, ignorance is bliss, religion by definition is IGNORANCE.
By definition? How so? Please don't use that terribly fallacious syllogism, though.

Also, what does evolution have to do with religion?
Feb 13, 2013 12:17pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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Feb 13, 2013 12:19 PM
By definition? How so? Please don't use that terribly fallacious syllogism, though.
Ignorance equals drawing conclusions based on no evidence.
Feb 13, 2013 12:19pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Feb 13, 2013 12:21 PM
First, faith is not what I base my belief on, so I'm not sure why you insist on using an untrue stereotype.
I'd love to see what you base your belief on. Remember, you are subscribing to a particular brand of religion, so you not only have to show evidence for the existence of a supernatural being, but you have to show evidence that this god belongs to your religion over the thousands of competing religions.
Feb 13, 2013 12:21pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Feb 13, 2013 12:21 PM
"... it's easy to draw the conclusion ..."

Because they are similar? Again, not that I disagree, but what scientific proof determines that if two things are similar, they must have a common root? Or, differently put, what in science suggests that two similar things could not have arisen separately?
Absolutely.
Feb 13, 2013 12:21pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Feb 13, 2013 12:26 PM
sleeper;1388363 wrote:Ignorance equals drawing conclusions based on no evidence.
Isn't this very statement a conclusion based on no evidence?

Talk about trying to move goalposts.

Ignorance is an absence of knowledge.

Religion merely accepts other forms of epistemology IN ADDITION to the sensate -- things like philosophical constructs and existential experiences. The former can even be shared as leverage. The latter, while not viable as evidence for others, certainly bears some credibility to the person(s) involved.
Feb 13, 2013 12:26pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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Feb 13, 2013 12:29 PM
Ignorance is an absence of knowledge.
And so is religion.
Feb 13, 2013 12:29pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

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Feb 13, 2013 12:32 PM
sleeper;1388365 wrote:I'd love to see what you base your belief on. Remember, you are subscribing to a particular brand of religion, so you not only have to show evidence for the existence of a supernatural being, but you have to show evidence that this god belongs to your religion over the thousands of competing religions.

History and philosophy, mostly. And I don't think any God belongs to anyone. I have gone through my own funnel of why I ended up where I did. From nontheism to theism to sentient theism to an involves theism to a single theism to the one I think best lines up with history and the philosophy of how the world seems to run.

However, anything after step 1 is fruitless, because we very obviously disagree at that point. It only stands to reason that we would, then, disagree on every other point.
sleeper;1388366 wrote:Absolutely.
That's not an answer to my questions.
Feb 13, 2013 12:32pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

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Feb 13, 2013 12:32 PM
sleeper;1388370 wrote:And so is religion.
Proof from the science community?
Feb 13, 2013 12:32pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Feb 13, 2013 12:38 PM
O-Trap;1388373 wrote:Proof from the science community?
Religion is an absence of knowledge.

They are easily substituted. There is no knowledge used in religion, just conjecture and faith.
Feb 13, 2013 12:38pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Feb 13, 2013 12:39 PM
O-Trap;1388372 wrote:History and philosophy, mostly. And I don't think any God belongs to anyone. I have gone through my own funnel of why I ended up where I did. From nontheism to theism to sentient theism to an involves theism to a single theism to the one I think best lines up with history and the philosophy of how the world seems to run.

However, anything after step 1 is fruitless, because we very obviously disagree at that point. It only stands to reason that we would, then, disagree on every other point.
History? LOL. The bible may have roots in history but so do TONS of fiction novels. You are really stretching it, but of course you have to when you are trying to rationalize an irrational belief.
Feb 13, 2013 12:39pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Feb 13, 2013 12:41 PM
sleeper;1388377 wrote:History? LOL. The bible may have roots in history but so do TONS of fiction novels. You are really stretching it, but of course you have to when you are trying to rationalize an irrational belief.
Wen referring to history you are assuming he was suggesting the Bible.
Feb 13, 2013 12:41pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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Feb 13, 2013 12:42 PM
That's not an answer to my questions.
Yes it is. Given the fossil record and what we know about DNA, you can conclude that species turn into new species albeit over millions of years. Have you seen a fossil of an early human? It is virtually indistinguishable from that of a ape.
Feb 13, 2013 12:42pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Feb 13, 2013 12:42 PM
sleeper;1388376 wrote:Religion is an absence of knowledge.

They are easily substituted. There is no knowledge used in religion, just conjecture and faith.
You didn't answer the question.
sleeper;1388377 wrote:History? LOL. The bible may have roots in history but so do TONS of fiction novels. You are really stretching it, but of course you have to when you are trying to rationalize an irrational belief.
I didn't say the Bible had its roots in history. You're assuming what I mean when I say history.
Feb 13, 2013 12:42pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

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Feb 13, 2013 12:44 PM
O-Trap;1388380 wrote: I didn't say the Bible had its roots in history. You're assuming what I mean when I say history.
Oh please clarify. I'd love to read about the history of the world through the eyes of a believer. Go on.
Feb 13, 2013 12:44pm