http://metronews.ca/news/world/393170/portugal-makes-peace-with-the-war-on-drugs/

Drug use has dropped and the courts and prisons are freed for more serious matters. Drug use needs to be viewed as a public health issue, not as a criminal issue. Since Nixon declared a "war on drugs" back in 1971 the prison population has increased eightfold (200,000 to 1,600,000). Basically, the only thing that benefits from the "war on drugs" is the Prison-Industrial Complex.

OK.

ernest_t_bass;1360850 wrote:OK.

I'm glad we agree.

justincredible;1360851 wrote:I'm glad we agree.

Actually, I do agree.

Do you think our culture would have accept the change like theirs?

I disagree.

The "war on drugs" is an effort of having legislation reflect the type of culture and society we want to become. It's a never ending, unattainable effort. There's not a finish line. Stating that more people have been imprisoned doesn't mean it' been unsuccessful. Simply having the legislation reflect the desire of the people is of itself success.

If the masses want drugs decriminalized it will be...through representation...eventually. That day is not today because the masses haven't put in the representatives to get it done.

ernest_t_bass;1360855 wrote:Actually, I do agree.

Do you think our culture would have accept the change like theirs?

Yes, but I think we are getting there. I think more people are waking up and realizing that the war on drugs is not working.

justincredible;1360859 wrote:Yes, but I think we are getting there. I think more people are waking up and realizing that the war on drugs is not working.

If they were legalized, I just foresee some pretty bad things happening at first, before they start to settle down.

Con_Alma;1360856 wrote:I disagree.

The "war on drugs" is an effort of having legislation reflect the type of culture and society we want to become. It's a never ending, unattainable effort. There's not a finish line. Stating that more people have been imprisoned doesn't mean it' been unsuccessful. Simply having the legislation reflect the desire of the people is of itself success.

If the masses want drugs decriminalized it will be...through representation...eventually. That day is not today because the masses haven't put in the representatives to get it done.

I think "we" have been brainwashed with bullshit anti-drug propaganda our entire lives. And yes, increasing our prison population by 8 times does mean that something isn't working.

ernest_t_bass;1360860 wrote:If they were legalized, I just foresee some pretty bad things happening at first, before they start to settle down.

Maybe. Maybe not. But pretty bad things are already happening so...

justincredible;1360863 wrote:Maybe. Maybe not. But pretty bad things are already happening so...

What do you suggest? Just legalize EVERYTHING? Pot taking? Haysh-Heesh?

justincredible;1360861 wrote:I think "we" have been brainwashed with bull**** anti-drug propaganda our entire lives. And yes, increasing our prison population by 8 times does mean that something isn't working.

We disagree on what the goal is and what constitutes "working". If increasing prison population by 8 time is present then the "war" is effectively punishing 8 times more people.

It's not some fundamental human right to use drugs. The society determines what they want and don't want. Once something is made illegal it tends to take the masses to change it. There may come a day when drugs are decriminalized. That day isn't today.

Con_Alma;1360870 wrote:We disagree on what the goal is and what constitutes "working". If increasing prison population by 8 time is present then the "war" is effectively punishing 8 times more people.

It's not some fundamental human right to use drugs. The society determines what they want and don't want. Once something is made illegal it tends to take the masses to change it. There may come a day when drugs are decriminalized. That day isn't today.

No, that day isn't today. But it's going to take open discussions today to change it sooner rather than later.

justincredible;1360877 wrote:No, that day isn't today. But it's going to take open discussions today to change it sooner rather than later.

No, it will take the masses to allow open discussions, derp.

justincredible;1360877 wrote:No, that day isn't today. But it's going to take open discussions today to change it sooner rather than later.

I don't know of anyone is opposed to "open discussion". I do know that the laws put in place are reflective of the desired culture and society at that time. That doesn't change with even a simple majority. It takes the masses and the masses are not yet evidently in favor of such decriminalization. There are certainly more of these people than even a decade ago but not yet nearly enough to expect such a legislative change.

Quoting things like increased prison population and costs to enforce the law does nothing but steer from the true reason we legislate certain things and doesn't solicit positive support from those whom you need in order to gain acceptance of decriminalization.

ernest_t_bass;1360879 wrote:No, it will take the masses to allow open discussions, derp.

Open discussion is rampant and requires no permission from anyone....even with the "derp"' suggestion patronizing an opposing view....in an open discussion.

Con_Alma;1360885 wrote:Open discussion is rampant and requires no permission from anyone....even with the "derp"' suggestion patronizing an opposing view....in an open discussion.

I'm firmly in the decriminalization camp. Drugs should be a public health issue, not a criminal issue. Our current system works well for the prison industrial complex but has absolutely ravaged broad swathes of the US (notably, poor minority and rural white communities). And it's not like we're making progress--I've never touched an illegal drug in my life, but I don't doubt for a second that I could get some within an hour. If an upper middle class white stiff in the suburbs can get drugs in an hour, we're not winning. We're spending billions of dollars and tearing apart families to lock away millions of people, but we're not making it tougher to get drugs.

Treat it as a public health issue, not a criminal issue.

fan_from_texas;1360923 wrote:I'm firmly in the decriminalization camp. Drugs should be a public health issue, not a criminal issue. Our current system works well for the prison industrial complex but has absolutely ravaged broad swathes of the US (notably, poor minority and rural white communities). And it's not like we're making progress--I've never touched an illegal drug in my life, but I don't doubt for a second that I could get some within an hour. If an upper middle class white stiff in the suburbs can get drugs in an hour, we're not winning. We're spending billions of dollars and tearing apart families to lock away millions of people, but we're not making it tougher to get drugs.

Treat it as a public health issue, not a criminal issue.

It's both a public health issue and a criminal issue because the people wanted it to be a legal issue at the time legislation was passed.

The driving issue is culture. Unfortunately is seems that culture is even more of a driving issue than the health concerns. Culture was what inspired the illegality of drugs and it will ultimately be what decriminalizes them.

Con_Alma;1360929 wrote:It's both a public health issue and a criminal issue because the people wanted it to be a legal issue at the time legislation was passed.

Right--things are criminal issues if society decides to make them criminal issues, regardless of the underlying morality or immorality of those issues themselves. The stamp of social imprimatur on some issue isn't definitive, and this is an issue that absolutely will be revisited across the US within the next 20 years.

I find it hard to believe that anyone who approaches this issue fresh (or as fresh as one can approach an issue) sees our current regime as a net positive. I don't think drugs are good. In fact, I'd go so far as to say they're a terrible evil. But when you look at our system versus, say, Portgual or the Netherlands (or even our own Prohibition-era history), it's pretty clear we're not presenting a better alternative.

The alternative that we provide is that which is decided by the people. Is it not? Is that not the design of our system? The "alternative" is reflective of the culture and people at the time of the legislation. Better is subjective and better is truly better if it's what the people want.

The revisiting of issues from a legality perspective tends to be inspired by the drive of the people and it's culture. Law isn't necessarily "right" or "wrong" simply because it's law. It is, however, a reflection of the culture. Our legislators are not simply going to wake up one day and take on the issues of decriminalizing drugs....unless the cultural shift inspires the masses to instigate such change.

Given what we've seen in the latest elections, and given polls that show more and more people are trending towards decriminalization, the people are speaking out on these issues. We'll see changes soon, and threads like this one will serve to educate the masses to instigate the change.

fan_from_texas;1360957 wrote:Given what we've seen in the latest elections, and given polls that show more and more people are trending towards decriminalization, the people are speaking out on these issues. We'll see changes soon, and threads like this one will serve to educate the masses to instigate the change.

I don't *disagree and in fact agree completely. I will reiterate however that it tends to take more than a 50 50 split to change such legislation. It's my opinion that it takes a mass majority to create sufficient incentive for representatives to act. We are certainly closer to that today than a decade ago. We are not there yet, however. The continued existence of such laws is the proof.

fan_from_texas;1360957 wrote:Given what we've seen in the latest elections, and given polls that show more and more people are trending towards decriminalization, the people are speaking out on these issues. We'll see changes soon, and threads like this one will serve to educate the masses to instigate the change.

justincredible;1360877 wrote:No, that day isn't today. But it's going to take open discussions today to change it sooner rather than later.

Precisely. Open discussions today, so those of us with brains don't have to wait for all the morons who believe Reefer Madness is a true story to die.

Heretic;1360962 wrote:Precisely. Open discussions today, so those of us with brains don't have to wait for all the morons who believe Reefer Madness is a true story to die.

I watched part of Reefer Madness this weekend. It was both hilarious and frustrating. Hilarious because it seemed like a bad satire skit or something. Frustrating because that was the kind of bullshit propaganda that tricked people into thinking that marijuana was bad.