Figured we would get this going as well.

1. K
2. Williams
3. Pitino
4. Calipari
5. Boeheim
6. Izzo
7. Self
8. Donovan (Should be higher based on accomplishments, but way to many early exits to be top 5)
9. Fisher (Does that count? Only the tourney run? Should he be on the list w/o a title? lol)
10. Tubby

I think these 10 are the only options (off the top of my head, are there any others even coaching that have a title???). Just have to pick the order...

Laley23;1341166 wrote:Figured we would get this going as well.

1. K
2. Williams
3. Pitino
4. Calipari
5. Boeheim
6. Izzo
7. Self
8. Donovan (Should be higher based on accomplishments, but way to many early exits to be top 5)
9. Fisher (Does that count? Only the tourney run? Should he be on the list w/o a title? lol)
10. Tubby

I think these 10 are the only options (off the top of my head, are there any others even coaching that have a title???). Just have to pick the order...

In regards to your sig, what McDonald's serves breakfast until 11am??

I don't know if I could put Tubby on this list. I think he's a great X's and O's guy, but recruiting is a big part of coaching, and he was a terrible recruiter even when he was at UK.

Se-alum most McDonald's are open untill 11 on the weekends. But I love that quote. Id put Pitino ahead of Roy but other than that I agree with your list.

se-alum;1341176 wrote:In regards to your sig, what McDonald's serves breakfast until 11am??

A few in Toledo I know. But in regards to Zeller, all the ones in Bloomington serve breakfast till 11am. On Sundays I think till 11:30. Something about maximizing profit on hungover college kids lol.

Hmmm....it's always been 10:30a around here, unless that has changed. Anyway, carry on with the threads intention...lol!

I think Izzo is a better coach than both Pitino and Cal.

GOONx19;1341232 wrote:I think Izzo is a better coach than both Pitino and Cal.

Ill take the guys who have taken 3 programs to a Final Four. But Izzo is very good. His current style of recruiting, however, will lead to more years where they dont contend for a title. He is probably my #1 Tournament coach though.

Interesting you rank Pitino 3 and Donovan 8. Maybe it's just perception on the whole teacher/student thing with those 2.

Billy Donovan (19 seasons)
428 wins (178 losses)
.706 winning percentage
4 SEC Titles
2 National Titles
3 Final Fours
5 Elite Eights
12 NCAA Tournaments

Rick Pitino (27 seasons)
616 wins (227 losses)
.730 winning percentage
1 National Championship
6 Final Fours
4 Elite Eights
16 NCAA Tournaments

Pitino has more totals and a better winning percentage (he had a 5-year run of record at UK that is almost unmatched), but outside of that, Rick and Billy are pretty similar. Given current trends, I think Billy at UF may end up surpassing Pitino...we'll see.

Azubuike24;1341271 wrote:Interesting you rank Pitino 3 and Donovan 8. Maybe it's just perception on the whole teacher/student thing with those 2.

Billy Donovan (19 seasons)
428 wins (178 losses)
.706 winning percentage
4 SEC Titles
2 National Titles
3 Final Fours
5 Elite Eights
12 NCAA Tournaments

Rick Pitino (27 seasons)
616 wins (227 losses)
.730 winning percentage
1 National Championship
6 Final Fours
4 Elite Eights
16 NCAA Tournaments

Pitino has more totals and a better winning percentage (he had a 5-year run of record at UK that is almost unmatched), but outside of that, Rick and Billy are pretty similar. Given current trends, I think Billy at UF may end up surpassing Pitino...we'll see.

As with the other list, I ranked on resume/career, coaching ability imo, etc. Not just one think.

I would take Donovan over Pitino currently to start a team.

This list is too tough to do; and I can't do it without bias, so I'm just not gonna do one lol

Laley23;1341166 wrote:Figured we would get this going as well.

1. K
2. Williams
3. Pitino
4. Calipari
5. Boeheim
6. Izzo
7. Self
8. Donovan (Should be higher based on accomplishments, but way to many early exits to be top 5)
9. Fisher (Does that count? Only the tourney run? Should he be on the list w/o a title? lol)
10. Tubby

I think these 10 are the only options (off the top of my head, are there any others even coaching that have a title???). Just have to pick the order...

I think you have Boeheim too high and Self too low, even with the early upsets factored in. Self has been better at Kansas than Roy was. He would probably be in my top 3.

14 straight NCAA tournaments at 3 schools (2 at Tulsa, 3 at Illinois, 9 at Kansas). At least a share of the conference title 12 of those 14 years. In 9 years at Kansas his winning % is a ridiculous .836 and he's been Elite 8 or further 5/9 seasons with 2 trips to the title game and a championship win.

Mulva;1341361 wrote:I think you have Boeheim too high and Self too low, even with the early upsets factored in. Self has been better at Kansas than Roy was. He would probably be in my top 3.

14 straight NCAA tournaments at 3 schools (2 at Tulsa, 3 at Illinois, 9 at Kansas). At least a share of the conference title 12 of those 14 years. In 9 years at Kansas his winning % is a ridiculous .836 and he's been Elite 8 or further 5/9 seasons with 2 trips to the title game and a championship win.

Boom.

Glad you said it so I didn't have to

Also just remembered Larry Brown is back in college.

Here's the thing.

Self and Donovan get knocked for the "early exits" in their careers. However, if I'm looking for CURRENT coaching ability and impact, they are near the very top.

With that said, I can go back and find you at least half a dozen years where Jim Boeheim and Rick Pitino really disappointed. Even the best coaches have bad years. Boeheim has lost 10+ more games in a season 11 times at Syracuse. He's failed to get our of the first weekend 13 out of 29 NCAA appearances. 7 other times he's missed the NCAA Tournament all together.

Not at all saying Boeheim isn't good or even saying he's overrated, but perception weighs a lot in these things. Percentage-wise, Donovan and Self are pretty equal or even better than Boeheim in-terms of percentages and not "disappointing."

Yeah but Self's biggest negative is that he made the tournament and lost in the first round. Some of these other guys don't even make the NCAA's. That doesn't happen with Self. Yes, his early round exits are bad, but every coach is going to have a negative.

Edit: And Self should not even be in the same breath as Donovan. Donovan, outside of his 2 titles, has been AT BEST average. 1 Final Four.

Exactly. Donovan had a 5-year stretch where they were brutal in the NCAA Tournament. From 2001 to 2005, the Gators exited in the first weekend 5 straight years including 2 first round exits. During this span he also had a streak of losing I believe 10 games in a row to Kentucky, including 3 SEC Championships. This span really helped create this idea that Donovan flames out. Truth is, 2 of those 5 teams had 7 SEC losses. I mean I'm sorry, I don't care what the name on your jersey says, if you lose 7 conference games, you aren't expected to do much in March.

The same is true with Self. Because of the run of losing to Bradley, Bucknell and Northern Iowa, he also took a team who was the NCAA favorite and lost to VCU. The stigma was created there, but I agree with you, it's not fair. Both of these guys have been victimized because they had terrible stretches that garnered a ton of negative media ribbing. Take their resumes as whole however and they stack up to anyone not named Coach K...

SportsAndLady;1341414 wrote:Yeah but Self's biggest negative is that he made the tournament and lost in the first round. Some of these other guys don't even make the NCAA's. That doesn't happen with Self. Yes, his early round exits are bad, but every coach is going to have a negative.

Edit: And Self should not even be in the same breath as Donovan. Donovan, outside of his 2 titles, has been AT BEST average. 1 Final Four.

This. All of it.

I've championed this here before, but because otherwise great coaches like Roy Williams, Billy Donovan, Jim Boeheim and Jim Calhoun are grouped into the "NIT" category, it's not popular. Fact of the matter is, the legends, guys like Bob Knight, Coach K and Dean Smith, and so far Bill Self, do not have "disaster seasons" that lead to the NIT or no postseason at all.

K has reached the NCAA Tournament the last 28 years. Dean Smith reached the event his last 23 years. Bob Knight reached the Big Dance his last 15 years at Indiana, and then took Texas Tech -- Texas Tech -- to the NCAAs six of his eight seasons in Lubbock (the two misses are understandable. Texas Tech was worthless before Knight's arrival. He built it into a power in just one year). Bill Self has reached the Tournament 14 straight seasons, dating back to 1999 when he was still at Tulsa.

On the other hand...

Bill Donovan - 2007 NIT, 2008 NIT (how does this happen immediately after back-to-back national titles? How do you let that happen? Unreal)
Jim Calhoun - 1993 NIT, 1997 NIT, 2001 NIT, 2007 N/P, 2010 NIT (WTF?)
Jim Boeheim - 1997 NIT, 2002 NIT, 2007 NIT, 2008 NIT

I don't put Roy Williams in that category, but he did take Carolina to the NIT in 2010, just one year removed from a national championship. And the talent was there. Three members of the NIT team would get drafted into the NBA the following summer and the team featured six Mickey Ds in addition to a HOF coach. As we are seeing again this year, after last year's mass departures, Roy seems to believe that putting "all his eggs in one basket" for a run to a title is the way to go, and that naturally is going to lead to really down years every few seasons. I call it major lack of preparation and poor planning for the future. At a school like North Carolina, an NIT season should never happen under the watch of a HOF coach. It's about as close to an NBA franchise as there is in college basketball.

Self is doing well. I probably had him a little low.

But the whole NIT thing is a bit overblown. I know it means something, but you have to look deeper. I dont care what their name and history says...Syracuse, UCONN and Florida are nowhere near Kansas, Duke, Indiana. UNC and Roy is a bit of a puzzler. But I like him because he has taken two programs to multiple final fours.

What I am saying is, K and Knight didnt/dont even have to try to make the tourney lol. The talent that they get is so much better year in year out than Uconn, Cuse, etc. Recruiting is a bit of it. But a LOT is the program selling itself. Coaching is a lot once the games start, but again a lot is the talent simply being there. We will never truly know, but if you swap Donovan and Boeheim with K and Self are the roles reversed?? I think it is very plausible to think so.

I can understand your take, Laley. Maybe you could give Boeheim and Donovan a pass. Although, unlike Florida, I consider Syracuse to be an elite basketball tradition, not just present day school, at this point.

But Jim Calhoun's case is inexcusable. Over the last 25 years, Connecticut has been an honorary member of the Super Six. That's the kind of dominance the Huskies have displayed throughout the last couple of decades, accumulating more national championships and more NBA players than just about every other school in the country. In the very midst of those three NCAA titles, however, UConn went to the NIT or missed the postseason altogether FOUR times. With the brand UConn had built under Calhoun, how Calhoun let that happen is beyond me. It's the reason he will never be seriously mentioned in the same breath as Knight, K and Dean. That and the dark cloud of unethical behavior that surrounded his program.

And as you say, Roy's down years at Carolina are utterly perplexing. That NIT is definitely a serious black mark on his otherwise brilliant career.

I agree with Calhoun. Never cared for the dude, but he could coach. But your right, nowhere near the best of the best.

Boeheim I dont give a "pass" to necessarily. Just that I think its tough to get the type of talent it takes to get it done year in year out to cold climate New York is tough. I think K would have the same trouble every so often but not as often (because, he is a better coach in gneneral). Same with Self at Kansas/Florida. I think Self is better than Donovan slightly, but if the roles were reversed I think Donovan would be doing it year in year out while Self might have a few off years at Florida.

Laley23;1342316 wrote:I agree with Calhoun. Never cared for the dude, but he could coach. But your right, nowhere near the best of the best.

Boeheim I dont give a "pass" to necessarily. Just that I think its tough to get the type of talent it takes to get it done year in year out to cold climate New York is tough. I think K would have the same trouble every so often but not as often (because, he is a better coach in gneneral). Same with Self at Kansas/Florida. I think Self is better than Donovan slightly, but if the roles were reversed I think Donovan would be doing it year in year out while Self might have a few off years at Florida.

I wish we had a way of finding that out. You raise very interesting scenarios. On the flip side, what would Boehiem have done at a school like Duke or Indiana? Would he have three or four titles and the same level of consistency of guys like K and Knight? We will never know, but it's certainly fun to think about. As you say, though, I don't think so because I just don't think Boeheim is on their level. He's great, but not on the same plane as those two.

reclegend22;1342247 wrote:
I don't put Roy Williams in that category, but he did take Carolina to the NIT in 2010, just one year removed from a national championship. And the talent was there. Three members of the NIT team would get drafted into the NBA the following summer and the team featured six Mickey Ds in addition to a HOF coach. As we are seeing again this year, after last year's mass departures, Roy seems to believe that putting "all his eggs in one basket" for a run to a title is the way to go, and that naturally is going to lead to really down years every few seasons. I call it major lack of preparation and poor planning for the future. At a school like North Carolina, an NIT season should never happen under the watch of a HOF coach. It's about as close to an NBA franchise as there is in college basketball.

2010 was definitely a black eye for Roy Williams and Carolina basketball. The team was talanted, but I do think it's pretty easy to see why things turned out as they did. That Carolina team had just lost Hansbrough, Lawson, Ellington, and Green to the NBA. They did return talented players like Ed Davis and Deon Thompson, but Davis wasn't around for the last 15 games or so due to injury, and obviously Thompson was a little more than an average college player. Ginyard was coming off an injury and was never the same, but had a limited skill set to begin with. Will Graves was simply a three-point shooter, and that's it. Zeller was basically still a freshman due to his injury the previous season, and a talented recruiting class that included Henson, McDonald, and Strickland had not yet developed. Finally, Drew II and the Wears were there, which needs no other explanation.

Overall, it was a combination of injuries, inexperience, and a few recruiting misses/eventual transfers that sort of created a perfect storm. Roy has always been a great recruiter, but he had a couple classes in a row that really cost him, and set the program back for a year or two. He didn't do a particularly good job of coaching that team either, which he has admitted. Sometimes even Carolina fans are pretty hard on Roy for his Xs and Os, in-game adjustments, and philosophy regarding timeouts. However, when you look at his resume, and take a closer look at what he's truly trying to accomplish, his body of work speaks for itself. Missing the NCAAT at Carolina is pretty inexcusable, especially with what appeared to be a "talented" team, but there were several factors at play. If this year's team ends up taking a turn for the worse, then Roy should take a lot of heat for it because there should be more than enough talent on the roster to win 20+ games before tournament time.

Laley23;1342316 wrote:I agree with Calhoun. Never cared for the dude, but he could coach. But your right, nowhere near the best of the best.

Boeheim I dont give a "pass" to necessarily. Just that I think its tough to get the type of talent it takes to get it done year in year out to cold climate New York is tough. I think K would have the same trouble every so often but not as often (because, he is a better coach in gneneral). Same with Self at Kansas/Florida. I think Self is better than Donovan slightly, but if the roles were reversed I think Donovan would be doing it year in year out while Self might have a few off years at Florida.

I'm slightly confused by this wording. Are you saying If K, Donovan, Self, etc. were coaching in a cold climate school (Syracuse), they'd have a few off years?

And where is the comparison of Donovan and Self coming in? Are you saying if Self was at UF he'd have a few down years? And if Donovan were at KU he'd have similar success as Self?

SportsAndLady;1342570 wrote:I'm slightly confused by this wording. Are you saying If K, Donovan, Self, etc. were coaching in a cold climate school (Syracuse), they'd have a few off years?

And where is the comparison of Donovan and Self coming in? Are you saying if Self was at UF he'd have a few down years? And if Donovan were at KU he'd have similar success as Self?

Short answer yes. Not so much saying that for sure. Just posing the question. Im saying, I think its easier to win at Kanasas than Florida and Duke than Syracuse.

Laley23;1342687 wrote:Short answer yes. Not so much saying that for sure. Just posing the question. Im saying, I think its easier to win at Kanasas than Florida and Duke than Syracuse.

It just sounded a little contradicting when in the first part you said its easier to succeed with warm weather..than said its easier to succeed at Kansas than Florida.

I do agree its easier to succeed at Kansas though.