ccrunner609;1337650 wrote:Players today??? The NBA has less marque players today then ever before.

lol say what?

Where's Noah fall? 30th-ish

Luol Deng?

Tyson Chandler?

Westbrook scores a lot of points on a ton of shots. That makes him "great" to people who don't look too much at the numbers, but he's not necessarily contributing as much value as initially seems to be the case.

E.g., http://wagesofwins.com/2012/10/27/the-thunders-epic-failure/

Or

http://wagesofwins.com/2012/11/01/the-truth-behind-russell-westbrooks-greatness/

I'd rather have Harden than Westbrook, though I imagine this opinion isn't a popular one.

fan_from_texas;1338428 wrote:Or

http://wagesofwins.com/2012/11/01/the-truth-behind-russell-westbrooks-greatness/

I'd rather have Harden than Westbrook, though I imagine this opinion isn't a popular one.

I go back and forth on this one. Its a lot closer than most people think. This year Russell is playing better than ever. His assist and TO are down. I'd put Russell slightly ahead for now. If he gets trigger happy again he would slide way down the rankings.

Blows my mind that he takes more shots than Durant for the thunder

gport_tennis;1338429 wrote:I go back and forth on this one. Its a lot closer than most people think. This year Russell is playing better than ever. His assist and TO are down. I'd put Russell slightly ahead for now. If he gets trigger happy again he would slide way down the rankings.

Blows my mind that he takes more shots than Durant for the thunder

and the Thunder have the most wins in the NBA...so who really cares?

You sound like Skip Bayless. You expect Durant to do it all himself?

Pick6;1338483 wrote:and the Thunder have the most wins in the NBA...so who really cares?

You sound like Skip Bayless. You expect Durant to do it all himself?

Michael Jordan had the second most shots on his championship winning teams? Hell no.

Durant is the best scorer in the NBA. Nobody is close. I don't expect Durant to do it all himself, that team is stacked so he does not need to. I do expect him to have the most shot attempts on his team though.

They are not going to beat the heat with Russell shooting more than Durant

gport_tennis;1338494 wrote:Michael Jordan had the second most shots on his championship winning teams? Hell no.

Durant is the best scorer in the NBA. Nobody is close. I don't expect Durant to do it all himself, that team is stacked so he does not need to. I do expect him to have the most shot attempts on his team though.

They are not going to beat the heat with Russell shooting more than Durant

Exactly. It's a question of efficiency/TSP. It's silly primarily to look at pts as a measure of quality, when the real test is value produced per posessions used.

gport_tennis;1338494 wrote:Michael Jordan had the second most shots on his championship winning teams? Hell no.

Durant is the best scorer in the NBA. Nobody is close. I don't expect Durant to do it all himself, that team is stacked so he does not need to. I do expect him to have the most shot attempts on his team though.

They are not going to beat the heat with Russell shooting more than Durant

Durant =/= Jordan. Remember Jordan had a Pippen, though. Didnt do it by himself. Like I said, most wins in the NBA, so Im not sure what the problem is.

The Thunder very well could have won a championship last year....if Mr. Harden decided to show up in the finals.

Westbrook is tied for 4th most assists in the NBA..but he shoots too much? Come on.

fan_from_texas;1338495 wrote:Exactly. It's a question of efficiency/TSP. It's silly primarily to look at pts as a measure of quality, when the real test is value produced per posessions used.

Do you have an equation to figure said value per posession?

Pick6;1338497 wrote:Durant =/= Jordan. Remember Jordan had a Pippen, though. Didnt do it by himself. Like I said, most wins in the NBA, so Im not sure what the problem is.

The Thunder very well could have won a championship last year....if Mr. Harden decided to show up in the finals.

Westbrook is tied for 4th most assists in the NBA..but he shoots too much? Come on.

I said Russell is playing better than ever. His assists are up and TO are down. I think his offensive game is very good. Still not as good as Durant. The best offensive player should have the most opportunities to score. Not a problem on a game to game basis, that team is talented in every aspect of the game.

I just don't think they will beat the heat with Westbrook shooting more than durant

Pick6;1338499 wrote:Do you have an equation to figure said value per posession?

There's an equation that measures value per minute, win shares per 48 minutes.

Right now RW is 20th, but fourth on OKC behind Durant, Kevin Martin, and Ibaka.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_leaders.html

Very last stat category on the bottom.

However, in offensive win shares, which obviously just speaks to a player's value on offense, Westbrook is 9th. Durant is 1st and RW is 2nd among PGs behind CP3. Shockingly, Varejao is 11th in this category!

lhslep134;1338511 wrote:There's an equation that measures value per minute, win shares per 48 minutes.

Right now RW is 20th, but fourth on OKC behind Durant, Kevin Martin, and Ibaka.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_leaders.html

Very last stat category on the bottom.

However, in offensive win shares, which obviously just speaks to a player's value on offense, Westbrook is 9th. Durant is 1st and RW is 2nd among PGs behind CP3. Shockingly, Varejao is 11th in this category!

What does win shares mean and how is it calculated?

I cant help but question any formula that says Thiago Splitter and Andray Blatche are most detrimental to their team's success.

lhslep134;1338511 wrote:There's an equation that measures value per minute, win shares per 48 minutes.

Right now RW is 20th, but fourth on OKC behind Durant, Kevin Martin, and Ibaka.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_leaders.html

Very last stat category on the bottom.

However, in offensive win shares, which obviously just speaks to a player's value on offense, Westbrook is 9th. Durant is 1st and RW is 2nd among PGs behind CP3. Shockingly, Varejao is 11th in this category!

Thanks--you beat me to it. Westbrook uses a lot of posessions to put his points up. His lack of efficiency makes him compare less favorably to players who are, you know, selective.

Russell can take over a game even if only a half. If his coach is ok with what he does and Durant is ok....I have no problem.

Westbrook is one of the most fun players to watch IMO

fan_from_texas;1338516 wrote:Thanks--you beat me to it. Westbrook uses a lot of posessions to put his points up. His lack of efficiency makes him compare less favorably to players who are, you know, selective.

Have you seen Harden play this year ? Hes anything but selective. Last year he had to be selective because he had 2 players better than him on the floor with him at most times (KD and RW)

I'm all for advanced stats and think they tell the true story more often that most fans would like to admit, but some of this seems like people aren't even watching the games and just reading a statistics blog to decide who is better. Westbrook plays a role in the offense that allows him to put up a lot of shots. He's not a traditional point guard, but fancy passes aren't the only way to open up your teammates. Showing you have a willingness to take contested shots, and a willingness to drive into traffic and try to finish rather than dish, makes the defense have different priorities than playing a PG who they know is simply on the floor to take wide open shots and dish the ball. His missed shots aren't simply failures, they are a necessary evil that controls how the defense has to account for him, and in turn, everyone elese on the court(including the emphasis they can put on stopping Durant.)

For any poker player, it's similar to a bluff that you lose. Sure you lost the money that individual time, but a short term loss is necessary to force your opponent in to a mentality/strategy that gives you +EV in the long run.

Westbrook is also never going to have a matchup where the coaching staff has to just say "someone else will have to step up, Russell has ___ checking him." Where as we saw last year, Harden has occasion to collapse against top competition. His finals performance was downright embarrassing for a player of his supposed caliber.

James Gatz;1338633 wrote:I'm all for advanced stats and think they tell the true story more often that most fans would like to admit, but some of this seems like people aren't even watching the games and just reading a statistics blog to decide who is better. Westbrook plays a role in the offense that allows him to put up a lot of shots. He's not a traditional point guard, but fancy passes aren't the only way to open up your teammates. Showing you have a willingness to take contested shots, and a willingness to drive into traffic and try to finish rather than dish, makes the defense have different priorities than playing a PG who they know is simply on the floor to take wide open shots and dish the ball. His missed shots aren't simply failures, they are a necessary evil that controls how the defense has to account for him, and in turn, everyone elese on the court(including the emphasis they can put on stopping Durant.)

For any poker player, it's similar to a bluff that you lose. Sure you lost the money that individual time, but a short term loss is necessary to force your opponent in to a mentality/strategy that gives you +EV in the long run.

Westbrook is also never going to have a matchup where the coaching staff has to just say "someone else will have to step up, Russell has ___ checking him." Where as we saw last year, Harden has occasion to collapse against top competition. His finals performance was downright embarrassing for a player of his supposed caliber.

agreed. reps