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Remember, you only need to worry about the "fiscal cliff" if you're a keynesian.

Home ▸ Archive ▸ Politics ▸ Remember, you only need to worry about the "fiscal cliff" if you're a keynesian.
jhay78's avatar

jhay78

Senior Member

1,917 posts
Nov 10, 2012 2:34 AM
Why is Harry Reid beating around the bush with a $2.4 trillion increase in the debt ceiling? Just bump it up $20 trillion and we're good for at least 8 years. :rolleyes:
Nov 9, 2012 9:34pm
tk421's avatar

tk421

Senior Member

8,500 posts
Nov 10, 2012 2:41 AM
gut;1316876 wrote:It's political suicide, I'd think. But I'd actually support if it was truly a flat tax (on non-necessities). No gaming, no credits - everyone pays the same tax on their IPhone. It would give everyone skin in the game, and then everyone might start to see and feel how out-of-control spending is. Besides being necessary at some point, it's the only way I can see that might force a cultural change.

And let's be honest - most of the corporate taxes already get passed thru to the consumer, anyway, so this just makes it more visible and transparent.
the problem with a VAT is that it would be on top of the current taxes. Paying local, state, federal and a VAT tax is a sure fire way to ruin this country. There has never been a tax that is ever repealed.
Nov 9, 2012 9:41pm
I

I Wear Pants

Senior Member

16,223 posts
Nov 10, 2012 5:45 AM
Here's what's going to happen.
Obama's going to get Reid, Pelosi, Boehner, and Mitch together to talk about this.

Reid and Pelosi will obviously be willing to deal with Obama and despite not being the best of pals Boehner will likely be willing to compromise enough that a deal is actually possible. The problem is really Mitch because he's one of the 1/3 of the Senate that's up for election the next time which means it would be fatal for him to "give in" to Obama when that would just result in some Tea Party or other "real" conservative beating him in his primary. He also won't want to completely block any compromise or deal from happening since then he could easily be painted as someone who's blocking progress for the sake of politics and lose out to a Democrat.

So what they'll do is exactly the same thing the last Congress did which is kick the can down the line a bit more. They'll do something like extend the tax cuts or extend them for nearly everyone and create another joint committee to try to come up with a solution. So we'll be talking about this again in 6 months to a year depending on how far they push it down the line. The age of hyperpartisanship continues!
Nov 10, 2012 12:45am
tk421's avatar

tk421

Senior Member

8,500 posts
Nov 10, 2012 6:28 AM
isn't that the solution for every problem in DC? Kick it down the can to another generation. No Congress has ever tackled an issue head on.
Nov 10, 2012 1:28am
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Nov 10, 2012 7:46 PM
I Wear Pants;1316922 wrote:As a whole the Eurozone could have approached the problem differently. Austerity was not the only option and is always a bad option. It has never worked.
Perhaps. But this is what happens when people have had enough of the takers. I don't find it the least bit surprising that the German people don't want to bail out the Greeks.
Nov 10, 2012 2:46pm
J

jmog

Senior Member

6,567 posts
Nov 11, 2012 2:32 AM
I Wear Pants;1316922 wrote:As a whole the Eurozone could have approached the problem differently. Austerity was not the only option and is always a bad option. It has never worked.
And spending into oblivion has worked? Last I checked it was what got Europe into their mess in the first place.
Nov 10, 2012 9:32pm
Cleveland Buck's avatar

Cleveland Buck

Troll Hunter

5,126 posts
Nov 11, 2012 2:48 AM
I Wear Pants;1316922 wrote:As a whole the Eurozone could have approached the problem differently. Austerity was not the only option and is always a bad option. It has never worked.
Boatshoes spews this shit because it was his indoctrination. I expected better from you.

http://mises.org/daily/3788

http://mises.org/daily/5215/Is-Budget-Austerity-ModernDay-Hooverism

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-british-austerity/

http://mises.org/daily/5939/Krugman-and-British-Austerity
Nov 10, 2012 9:48pm
believer's avatar

believer

Senior Member

8,153 posts
Nov 11, 2012 3:40 AM
jmog;1317614 wrote:And spending into oblivion has worked? Last I checked it was what got Europe into their mess in the first place.
I'm actually finding myself wanting BHO, Reid, and - yes - Boehner to ratchet-up the spending now that the Amerikan Sheeple have asked for more.

Let's raise taxes across-the-board, introduce Porkulus II, add more Federal employees, dump more tax dollars into failed union-based industries, and shell out $$$$ to doomed-from-the-start "green" industries.

Do it and do it NOW.

If we're going to implode economically let's get it over with.
Nov 10, 2012 10:40pm
M

MoldyDog

Member

70 posts
Nov 11, 2012 7:31 AM
The U.S.A. already "exploded economically" during the Bush administration. And the resulting depression, from Republican policies and tea party obstructionists.

Dems been trying for the last 4 years to reverse it, and by all accounts the financial situation has been improving, but Dems have been obstructed in every way by the tea party Republicans. No one is asking for across the board increase in taxes, only that taxes on those that can best afford it to increase, by a measly amount.

And Mitch better watch out, the only Republicans that benefited from this election were in gerrymandered districts. He's in the Senate and the Dems won virtually every straight up votes there were there. That's why Obama kicked ass, 332-204 in the Electoral Vote. Yes, kicked ass. That's a Mandate. Republicans even lost Florida, and every other "swing state." Straight up.

Your kids are gonna love you(not) if you don't embrace green.
Nov 11, 2012 2:31am
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Nov 11, 2012 7:39 AM
MoldyDog;1317770 wrote:The U.S.A. already "exploded economically" during the Bush administration. And the resulting depression, from Republican policies and tea party obstructionists..
You're lying to yourself if you don't realize that was a fully bipartisan failure with its roots in the Clinton administration.

There's been no obstruction, only a crisis of leadership. Economic and financial lessons can be painful, and apparently you didn't learn the first time so you've signed up for another 4-yr course. By all accounts, we are on the precispice of another recession.
Nov 11, 2012 2:39am
M

MoldyDog

Member

70 posts
Nov 11, 2012 7:53 AM
Horse crap. Clinton left office with the best financial condition we've had in a long, long time. Bush sure screwed that up with two unfunded wars and a massive financial crisis at the very end of his EIGHT YEARS in office. Mitch McConnell straight up said that his most important goal was to limit Obama to one term. That meant obstructing everything.

I'm glad we've signed up for another 4 year course. We'll see what happens. And it will be much better than the last Republican that held the Presidency. Bank it. Actually, bank it twice.

And your kids are gonna love you(not), if you don't embrace green. Ask Sandy.
Nov 11, 2012 2:53am
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Nov 11, 2012 8:21 AM
MoldyDog;1317776 wrote:Horse crap. Clinton left office with the best financial condition we've had in a long, long time.
Clinton helped plant the seeds for the housing meltdown. That's a fact.

Clinton handed over a pending tech bubble burst. Also fact.

Clinton has been glorified and claimed to be much more successful years later than he was in the immediate years after leaving office. He was widely viewed as a guy who stayed out of the way, until the tech bubble burst.

Clinton is the most overrated President in history. Fact. He's what George Bush would have been if the housing crisis had waited another year or two.


The only green your kids are going to care about are the greenbacks you torched and pissed away.
Nov 11, 2012 3:21am
believer's avatar

believer

Senior Member

8,153 posts
Nov 11, 2012 8:41 AM
MoldyDog;1317770 wrote:The U.S.A. already "exploded economically" during the Bush administration. And the resulting depression, from Republican policies and tea party obstructionists.

Dems been trying for the last 4 years to reverse it, and by all accounts the financial situation has been improving, but Dems have been obstructed in every way by the tea party Republicans. No one is asking for across the board increase in taxes, only that taxes on those that can best afford it to increase, by a measly amount.

And Mitch better watch out, the only Republicans that benefited from this election were in gerrymandered districts. He's in the Senate and the Dems won virtually every straight up votes there were there. That's why Obama kicked ass, 332-204 in the Electoral Vote. Yes, kicked ass. That's a Mandate. Republicans even lost Florida, and every other "swing state." Straight up.

Your kids are gonna love you(not) if you don't embrace green.
More Kool Aid consumption....amazing.
Nov 11, 2012 3:41am
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Nov 11, 2012 8:42 AM
believer;1317779 wrote:More Kool Aid consumption....amazing.
Couple more years of the Obamaconomy and it won't even be brand name Kool-aid, it will be Costco Tang.
Nov 11, 2012 3:42am
believer's avatar

believer

Senior Member

8,153 posts
Nov 11, 2012 9:41 AM
gut;1317780 wrote:Couple more years of the Obamaconomy and it won't even be brand name Kool-aid, it will be Costco Tang.
And they'll blame it on Bush.
Nov 11, 2012 4:41am
Terry_Tate's avatar

Terry_Tate

Senior Member

7,606 posts
Nov 11, 2012 2:29 PM
MoldyDog;1317776 wrote:Mitch McConnell straight up said that his most important goal was to limit Obama to one term. That meant obstructing everything.

To be fair, McConnell made that statement at the halfway point in Obama's Presidency, and also said he didn't want the President to fail, he wanted him to change and meet them on some points.
Nov 11, 2012 9:29am
rmolin73's avatar

rmolin73

Senior Member

4,278 posts
Nov 11, 2012 3:53 PM
believer;1317779 wrote:More Kool Aid consumption....amazing.
gut;1317780 wrote:Couple more years of the Obamaconomy and it won't even be brand name Kool-aid, it will be Costco Tang.
believer;1317786 wrote:And they'll blame it on Bush.
You need to invest in Kleenex.
Nov 11, 2012 10:53am
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Nov 11, 2012 3:57 PM
gut;1317778 wrote:
Clinton is the most overrated President in history.
He really is.
Nov 11, 2012 10:57am
B

BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Nov 11, 2012 5:22 PM
jmog;1317614 wrote:And spending into oblivion has worked? Last I checked it was what got Europe into their mess in the first place.
No it wasn't. Spain was running a fiscal surplus and nearly a paragon of fiscal virtue. The problem was borrowing in a currency they can't print and therby selling their fate to the Germans who similarly think this is a morality play.
Nov 11, 2012 12:22pm
B

BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Nov 11, 2012 5:25 PM
So what it ultimately is that we're approaching a modest but effective amount of deficit reduction that would "put us on a credible path to a balanced budget" but the supposed deficit hawks are complaining about it because they're not really deficit hawks after all now are they? What we have is a bunch of people who use the deficit as a political tool to dismantle social and safety net spending.
Nov 11, 2012 12:25pm
believer's avatar

believer

Senior Member

8,153 posts
Nov 11, 2012 5:32 PM
BoatShoes;1317925 wrote:What we have is a bunch of people who use the deficit as a political tool to dismantle social and safety net spending.
What we have is a bunch of people who think it's the government's job to confiscate wealth created by the producers and redistribute that wealth to the non-producers all the while obfuscating that economic reality by cloaking it in cute euphemisms like "social and safety net spending."

Talk about political tools. ;)
Nov 11, 2012 12:32pm
B

BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Nov 11, 2012 5:45 PM
believer;1317929 wrote:What we have is a bunch of people who think it's the government's job to confiscate wealth created by the producers and redistribute that wealth to the non-producers all the while obfuscating that economic reality by cloaking it in cute euphemisms like "social and safety net spending."

Talk about political tools. ;)
If you supported my views of a automatic stabilizers in the form of a job guarantee as opposed to our current hodge podge system there is no such thing as a non-producer, but that is off the topic of this thread.

The topic is that we have significant deficit reduction coming that should please the supposed budget hawks....but they're not really budget hawks at all...
Nov 11, 2012 12:45pm
believer's avatar

believer

Senior Member

8,153 posts
Nov 11, 2012 5:48 PM
BoatShoes;1317940 wrote:If you supported my views of a automatic stabilizers in the form of a job guarantee as opposed to our current hodge podge system there is no such thing as a non-producer, but that is off the topic of this thread.

The topic is that we have significant deficit reduction coming that should please the supposed budget hawks....but they're not really budget hawks at all...
Sorry Boatshoes, but LMAO.
Nov 11, 2012 12:48pm
B

BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Nov 11, 2012 11:07 PM
believer;1317945 wrote:Sorry Boatshoes, but LMAO.
Cutting the deficit in half would be significant and that is what the CBO projects. You'd think the GOP might be a little more trusting of projections after the failure of their epistemology got revealed for the whole world to see a week ago.

They should be applauding the fiscal cliff because it will increase confidence and therefore increase private sector investment and consumption unless of course those arguments they were making previously were just a bunch of garbage they made up...oh wait. :laugh:
Nov 11, 2012 6:07pm
B

BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Nov 11, 2012 11:08 PM
jmog;1317614 wrote:And spending into oblivion has worked? Last I checked it was what got Europe into their mess in the first place.
Additionally, worth pointing out that the states with the more generous welfare states are handling Europe's problems better than the less generous states like Spain.
Nov 11, 2012 6:08pm