ZWICK 4 PREZ;1294154 wrote:No you missed it again. I'm responsible for my success, not them.

There's a reason that wealthy family is as wealthy as they are.. it's b/c of the thousands of brilliant people who have grown their business.. they didn't do it alone. They'd be a small business if they tried to do it alone.

Sorry Zwick, but you are wrong.

A smart small business owner hires smart people and pays them a good salary which yes, helps grow the business. If the business owner was not so smart he would make bad hiring decisions and hire lazy people and then not fire them.

So yes, they did build their business and sorry, but believe it or not, every single worker for that family business is replaceable, seen it too many times. Don't think that if the people started sucking at their job that the business owner would go broke, if he is smart he would replace said people and the business would continue to strive.

You can't be serious with this mentality, someone who has shown such disdain for union workers in the past sure sounds like a union voice the way you are talking right now.

He's just always mad cause the Union workers there make more.

I kid, I kid.

jmog;1295451 wrote:Sorry Zwick, but you are wrong.

A smart small business owner hires smart people and pays them a good salary which yes, helps grow the business. If the business owner was not so smart he would make bad hiring decisions and hire lazy people and then not fire them.

So yes, they did build their business and sorry, but believe it or not, every single worker for that family business is replaceable, seen it too many times. Don't think that if the people started sucking at their job that the business owner would go broke, if he is smart he would replace said people and the business would continue to strive.

You can't be serious with this mentality, someone who has shown such disdain for union workers in the past sure sounds like a union voice the way you are talking right now.

Way too oversimplistic. Businesses aren't driven by the owners. They're just one part. There's a myriad of cogs in the machine.

ZWICK 4 PREZ;1295602 wrote:Way too oversimplistic. Businesses aren't driven by the owners. They're just one part. There's a myriad of cogs in the machine.

Many cogs but by far the most important when it comes to determining the success or failure of a company is the owner, and it isn't even close.

ZWICK 4 PREZ;1295602 wrote:Way too oversimplistic. Businesses aren't driven by the owners. They're just one part. There's a myriad of cogs in the machine.

Owner vision, dream, entrepreneur mentality, sacrifice, dedication, risk and hard work built those companies that supplies workers, charitable giving and community growth. Successful owners surround themselves with the best people to continue to be a growth driven company.
What you see is now, you never looked at the beginning ….where the owner leadership was the factor of success.
Owners of successful companies may not make the daily operational decision but they are still the leadership that determines the failure or success and the direction of finical investment that dives the company prosperity.
Unlike you who are just a follower behind a monitor, business owner are leaders and that something you can’t grasp.
You think you’re an important part of their success, bro people like you in your profession or position are a dime a dozen, replaceable at a drop of a hat and you know it… and that eats at you.

Why am I not as successful as they are I’m smarter, more educated and better than they are, I do more .. Sorry you’re not because you will not take the risk of an entrepreneur because you’re comfortable …. Unhappy but comfortable to be a follower.
I been there and done that I know what that feels like….

jmog;1295618 wrote:Many cogs but by far the most important when it comes to determining the success or failure of a company is the owner, and it isn't even close.

Sure, but their success isn't from them alone.

Belly35;1295630 wrote:Owner vision, dream, entrepreneur mentality, sacrifice, dedication, risk and hard work built those companies that supplies workers, charitable giving and community growth. Successful owners surround themselves with the best people to continue to be a growth driven company.
What you see is now, you never looked at the beginning ….where the owner leadership was the factor of success.
Owners of successful companies may not make the daily operational decision but they are still the leadership that determines the failure or success and the direction of finical investment that dives the company prosperity.
Unlike you who are just a follower behind a monitor, business owner are leaders and that something you can’t grasp.
You think you’re an important part of their success, bro people like you in your profession or position are a dime a dozen, replaceable at a drop of a hat and you know it… and that eats at you.

Why am I not as successful as they are I’m smarter, more educated and better than they are, I do more .. Sorry you’re not because you will not take the risk of an entrepreneur because you’re comfortable …. Unhappy but comfortable to be a follower.
I been there and done that I know what that feels like….

You're so stereotypical it isn't funny, Belly lol

I like what I do that's why I stay. If it were only about money, I'd leave. As I already said... I've made nearly double my salary for a quarter of the hours billed contracting my services to a former employer. If I wanted a ton more money I'd contract myself full time. But there work here is more interesting, the work here is better, and the people around here are better. If the time comes when that changes, I'll make a move.

ZWICK 4 PREZ;1295641 wrote:You're so stereotypical it isn't funny, Belly lol

I like what I do that's why I stay. If it were only about money, I'd leave. As I already said... I've made nearly double my salary for a quarter of the hours billed contracting my services to a former employer. If I wanted a ton more money I'd contract myself full time. But there work here is more interesting, the work here is better, and the people around here are better. If the time comes when that changes, I'll make a move.

Why is it better because the owners have set the standard. You like what you do and do it well .. great / perfect
But you want to bash those owner who have given you this opportunity, want to take from them what is not yours to take via more taxes. If you are so complied to give your hard earn money away to the IRS do it, give more. You know you can.
The companies, owners and business pay want is by law and if the law has a problems then it is the politician creation not the owners failure. You're aming at the easy target when the problem is one who are calling for you to pull the triger. Those are the ones who are aiming at your back.
You have no idea want a small business owner is paying in taxes both personal and business (we get hit from both ends) and as for a larger company they pay big bucks for accountant to protect them from this political strangle hold and rightfully so.

Let me remind you
I have never gotten a pay check from a poor individual
I have never been hired by the homeless
I have never worked for the unemployed person
I have never hear of someone on entitlements paying their fair share of taxes on their free $28,0000 a year income

My prosperity is not depended on those who have not but with those that have what I want.. success

ZWICK 4 PREZ;1295641 wrote:You're so stereotypical it isn't funny, Belly lol

I like what I do that's why I stay. If it were only about money, I'd leave. As I already said... I've made nearly double my salary for a quarter of the hours billed contracting my services to a former employer. If I wanted a ton more money I'd contract myself full time. But there work here is more interesting, the work here is better, and the people around here are better. If the time comes when that changes, I'll make a move.

In other words the owner has created a place that has interesting work, hired good people, and created a good atmosphere at the work place.

Yeah, lets make sure to punish him...

Belly35;1295688 wrote:Why is it better because the owners have set the standard. You like what you do and do it well .. great / perfect

B/c it's two different industries and 2 different styles of work. You aren't comparing apples to apples.

Belly35;1295688 wrote:But you want to bash those owner who have given you this opportunity, want to take from them what is not yours to take via more taxes. If you are so complied to give your hard earn money away to the IRS do it, give more. You know you can.
The companies, owners and business pay want is by law and if the law has a problems then it is the politician creation not the owners failure. You're aming at the easy target when the problem is one who are calling for you to pull the triger. Those are the ones who are aiming at your back.
You have no idea want a small business owner is paying in taxes both personal and business (we get hit from both ends) and as for a larger company they pay big bucks for accountant to protect them from this political strangle hold and rightfully so.

I'm not bashing them.. they're great people to work for. But asking them to pay a share for what they enjoy isn't unreasonable. Businesses know damn well they enjoy the government socializing subsidies they recieve for R&D, Green technology, tax breaks.. but want to keep their profits privitized. It shouldn't work both ways.. all in or all out.

Belly35;1295688 wrote:You have no idea want a small business owner is paying in taxes both personal and business (we get hit from both ends) and as for a larger company they pay big bucks for accountant to protect them from this political strangle hold and rightfully so.

Sure I do..as a 1099 I have to withhold income taxes, withhold and pay Social Security and Medicare taxes, and pay unemployment tax.. either that or my accountant needs fired.

Belly35;1295688 wrote:Let me remind you
I have never gotten a pay check from a poor individual
I have never been hired by the homeless
I have never worked for the unemployed person
I have never hear of someone on entitlements paying their fair share of taxes on their free $28,0000 a year income

My prosperity is not depended on those who have not but with those that have what I want.. success

But guessw what, Belly. There are homless people.. there are poor people... there are unemployed people.. and they need help. I'm sorry you're greedy and can't understand why others aren't.

jmog;1295704 wrote:In other words the owner has created a place that has interesting work, hired good people, and created a good atmosphere at the work place.

Yeah, lets make sure to punish him...

As I told Belly.. it's two different industries and styles of work.. not in any part due to different owners. Apples and oranges my friend.

jmog;1295618 wrote:Many cogs but by far the most important when it comes to determining the success or failure of a company is the owner, and it isn't even close.

Absolutely agree 110%. Which isn't to say every owner is Jack Welch. Some guys just had a great idea, but by and large the successful ones have good owners who may even have just learned intuitively how to run things.

ZWICK 4 PREZ;1295705 wrote:B/c it's two different industries and 2 different styles of work. You aren't comparing apples to apples.




I'm not bashing them.. they're great people to work for. But asking them to pay a share for what they enjoy isn't unreasonable. Businesses know damn well they enjoy the government socializing subsidies they recieve for R&D, Green technology, tax breaks.. but want to keep their profits privitized. It shouldn't work both ways.. all in or all out.

Since you are all knowing Z4P, please let us know what their "fair share" is?

I mean they already pay a higher rate than you and I do, how much more?

You are also smart enough to know how businesses work, they operate with a certain profit margin "target" say at 15%. If the taxes go up, they still want 15%, so guess where the cuts would tend to be made? Either in lower salary increases or hiring less people.

Yeah, that's a way to help a struggling economy...

jmog;1295761 wrote:Since you are all knowing Z4P, please let us know what their "fair share" is?

I mean they already pay a higher rate than you and I do, how much more?

You are also smart enough to know how businesses work, they operate with a certain profit margin "target" say at 15%. If the taxes go up, they still want 15%, so guess where the cuts would tend to be made? Either in lower salary increases or hiring less people.

Yeah, that's a way to help a struggling economy...

ahh yes but you forget they're still a part of a free market and can only sacrifice lower salary increases and hiring less people to a point, then they lose their appeal to prospective employees which sacrifices business which another company is waiting around the corner to gobble up.

jmog;1295761 wrote:Since you are all knowing Z4P, please let us know what their "fair share" is?

I mean they already pay a higher rate than you and I do, how much more?

You are also smart enough to know how businesses work, they operate with a certain profit margin "target" say at 15%. If the taxes go up, they still want 15%, so guess where the cuts would tend to be made? Either in lower salary increases or hiring less people.

Yeah, that's a way to help a struggling economy...

Well "Fair Share" is just a political term really.

Here's what we do know though...the CBO projects that allowing the top marginal rate to go back to 39.6% will lead to $950 billion in deficit reduction over the next ten years and also won't contract the economy...unlike allowing rates to rise for lower brackets...because those folks are largely able to consume as much as they demand.

So, it's a win win. Your intuition about what would happen probably doesn't stuck up to their analysis.

BoatShoes;1295768 wrote:Well "Fair Share" is just a political term really.

Here's what we do know though...the CBO projects that allowing the top marginal rate to go back to 39.6% will lead to $950 billion in deficit reduction over the next ten years and also won't contract the economy...unlike allowing rates to rise for lower brackets...because those folks are largely able to consume as much as they demand.

So, it's a win win. Your intuition about what would happen probably doesn't stuck up to their analysis.

So you truly believe that businesses are just going to "eat" that extra 4%? They won't pass it onto the consumer or lower their total funds alloted to the employees?

Ah, such a utopian society you think we live in Boat.

jmog;1295774 wrote:So you truly believe that businesses are just going to "eat" that extra 4%? They won't pass it onto the consumer or lower their total funds alloted to the employees?

Ah, such a utopian society you think we live in Boat.

It all depends on how competitive they want to stay, jmog.

ZWICK 4 PREZ;1295777 wrote:It all depends on how competitive they want to stay, jmog.

Are you shitting me? So the government makes it harder to be competitive and business owner just sit around as 4% profit go .... Where?

When is it up to the government to determine my competitiveness? How about the government becoming more competent first and my 4% wouldn’t be needed.

Who works for who here?


It’s not greedy it not being wasteful ….

Z4P tell me want Federal Government Operation you want to spend your money effectively and do they?

Until the Federal Government can operate within a budge, stop the internal fraud, corruption and wasteful spending don’t be asking successful business and individual to make of for the Federal Government incompetency.

Why the hell would I give government more if they haven’t proven they can be successful in handling what has already been given?

What “fair share” of that $28,000 free entitlement money should be taxed?

ZWICK 4 PREZ;1295777 wrote:It all depends on how competitive they want to stay, jmog.

Or which country they'll end up.

ZWICK 4 PREZ;1295777 wrote:It all depends on how competitive they want to stay, jmog.

As if the US isn't one of the highest corporate taxed nations in the world already let's make it even less competitive here and raise those already high (comparatively) taxes.

jmog;1295797 wrote:As if the US isn't one of the highest corporate taxed nations in the world already let's make it even less competitive here and raise those already high (comparatively) taxes.

It's also one of the lowest personal tax rate countries b/c we found out a long time ago that economies grow when people have money to buy things.

jmog;1295774 wrote:So you truly believe that businesses are just going to "eat" that extra 4%? They won't pass it onto the consumer or lower their total funds alloted to the employees?

Ah, such a utopian society you think we live in Boat.

CBO just making shit up I guess :laugh:. Much better to craft our policy on gut feelings.

ZWICK 4 PREZ;1295847 wrote:It's also one of the lowest personal tax rate countries b/c we found out a long time ago that economies grow when people have money to buy things.

Right, and raising taxes on the businesses adds to the people's money to spend in what way Z4P. Please explain how raising corporate tax rates adds money to you and me.

jmog;1295937 wrote:Right, and raising taxes on the businesses adds to the people's money to spend in what way Z4P. Please explain how raising corporate tax rates adds money to you and me.

It doesn't, it adds to paying off debt.

BoatShoes;1295920 wrote:CBO just making **** up I guess :laugh:. Much better to craft our policy on gut feelings.

If the CBO assumed that businesses wouldn't pass the added tax expense either onto the customers or the workers then the CBO obviously made a terribly bad assumption.

This isn't a "gut" feeling, it is a known principle across business. If someone has to pay more because of red tape, taxes, regulations, etc that company still has a P/E ratio or profit margin that they need to hit for their investors or owners. There is only two areas to keep that ratio the same if the expenses go up due to regulations/taxes.

You need more revenue (aka pass it onto the customer) or you need to make cuts elsewhere (staffing). This is business 101 and knowing where Z4P went to college I know he had to take Intro to Economic Analysis (1/2 semester of macro, 1/2 of micro economics).

Either way, whether costs go up to the consumer or the worker is making less than they could, taxing the corporation more hurts the middle class just as much as it does the high income earners.

It is not rocket science, it is common business practice.