^^ lol makes sense.

BR1986FB;1279286 wrote:You want my honest opinion? Well I'm going to give it to you regardless. I think Shurmur is the best they could get. Kinda like handing a jar of anthrax to someone. "Here, you take it...I don't want it." Nobody of value WANTED the job.

While I think there is some merit to that idea, part of the problem was they limited the applicant pool only to those running an antiquated version of the 1980's west coast system.

If the Steelers had taken the Browns approach to hiring and eliminated any candidate not steeped in being part of a 3-4 defense their entire career they would never have let Mike Tomlin in the door (he has previously spent his coaching life in the 4-3 Tampa 2 scheme).

Then again that is why the Browns have the problems they do. This regime has been the most arrogant, ideologically rigid group I have possibly ever seen.

They were determined to get someone that would be content to be a yes man to run Holmgren's system and not ruffle any feathers or bring new ideas to the table. In return they would be protected by Holmgren and have indefinite job security as long as he was there.

People weren't beating down their door to take the job, but with the number of pre-conditions on who would even be considered it is of no surprise Shurmur is the best they could do.

like_that;1279172 wrote:At least Patty Boy has some balls http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/09/cleveland_browns_coach_pat_shu_33.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter.

No. Little is a beast. I read it here several times.

Any bidders?

Footwedge;1279486 wrote:No. Little is a beast. I read it here several times.

If it's not done by the time Haslam takes official ownership (and knowing Shurmur doubt it will) Haslam's first move should be to step in and make Little miss (at least) one game---sit his butt down and say "catch the ball, don't do stupid dance stuff, or got outta here".
Move 2) Show holmgren the door, tell him thanks for his time, and have a nice life.
Move 3) Show Shurmur the door, tell him thanks for his time, good luck wherever. You were in way over your head, and we gotta show this team we aren't putting up woth ineptitude--from anyone. Have a nice life.
Move 4) Show heckert the door, tell him thanks for his time, and have a nice life. His moves are average at best.
Move 5) Give the reigns to either Chilly or Jauron for the rest of the year. At least they have coached in the past.
Move 6) Start immediately to get YOUR guys in here, to start asap, as we will likely have the #1 pick. try not to draft a Courtney Brown or a Gerard Warren, but someone that a team like the Steelers would draft if they ever got a #1 pick (which of course they wouldn't because they know how to run an NFL team...

Ricola....I wasn't this way before but I'm starting to lean in the "get rid of Heckert too" direction.

BR1986FB;1279957 wrote:Ricola....I wasn't this way before but I'm starting to lean in the "get rid of Heckert too" direction.

yeah, me too. If you really look at it, what has he done? Free Agency....nothing. Drafting.....nothing that me or you couldn't have done.

He hasn't hit very much on rounds from 3-6, which is where good GMs do their damage.

Everyone seems to give Heckert a pass here, but he's as (maybe not as) culpable as the rest. Besides, he's one of Holmgren's boys, and is on Holmgren's gravy train, thus not having to worry about any moves he makes, just getting the "holmgren stamp of approval" to "carry on. (kind of like Dolan's stamp of approval to Shaponetti..)
Realistically, what has he done? he's had 3 drafts, and 3 free agency periods (if you can even count anything he's actually done in free agency) and what do we have. The youngest least competetive tem in the NFL, with maybe 5-6 players that could be playing on anyone's NFL roster? Are you kidding me? And responsibility (along with Holmgren) for bringing in a coach who looks more lost every week? What's there to look forward to? People don't want to "blow it up and start over" because that's all we do...but WHY would you want to proceed going down the road with these people running the show/making the draft moves, etc??
A complete redo can't start soon enough.

So far, the only player Heckert can "rest his laurels on" is Joe Haden and even that dumbass couldn't keep his hand out of the Adderall jar. Too early to make a decision on Richardson. The rest are average players. I thought some of these guys (TJ Ward, Little, etc) could be playmakers but now I'm pretty skeptical.

It's the old Bill Parcell's line about "you're as good as your record says you are".

In season 3 of the rebuild we are going to be lucky to win 3-4 games.

That is just not good enough. Turn arounds in the NFL are easier than any other league by alot, and to still be at this point is unacceptable no matter how bad the situation was when he got here.

Drafting defense the first 2 years of the rebuild proved to be the downfall of this regime. They should have made getting a QB priority number 1, and everything else second. Weeden was a panic pick (who I am fine with) but in year 3 of the rebuild it is ridiculous that they had to make that kind of move just because they knew they couldn't go into this year without having someone to put back there.

Not using free agency at all screams of arrogance. We had far too many holes to fill to do it strictly through the draft. Not that we had to use it to build the whole team, but there is no reason we couldn't have filled a couple spots with competent veterans while we tried to integrate some of the new draft picks.

From top to bottom there has just been too much incompetence to really warrant bringing any of them back, Heckert included. I think he kind of has a clue sometimes, but we are in just too deep a hole this late into the rebuild to warrant him being allowed to keep his job.

wes_mantooth;1279963 wrote:yeah, me too. If you really look at it, what has he done? Free Agency....nothing. Drafting.....nothing that me or you couldn't have done.

He hasn't hit very much on rounds from 3-6, which is where good GMs do their damage.

I'm leaning (more like falling) this way as each loss piles up....I thought Heckert was a good hire, but the more I think about it the more I realize he had no decision making power with the Eagles, and when he does have the power all he has really done is draft Haden. Everyone else is average at best, no pro bowlers or playmakers.

Haslem can't take over soon enough!

BR1986FB;1280004 wrote:So far, the only player Heckert can "rest his laurels on" is Joe Haden and even that dumbass couldn't keep his hand out of the Adderall jar. Too early to make a decision on Richardson. The rest are average players. I thought some of these guys (TJ Ward, Little, etc) could be playmakers but now I'm pretty skeptical.

Yeah I think we all agree---get rid of everyone, top to bottom.

This is of course my opinion and I'm sure some won't agree...but that wouldn't be a "4 to 5 year rebuilding process". There are players in tact here, we just need a new regime that can fill some holes, aka draft better in the later rounds.

My plan for new regime:

1) we're probably going to have a top 3 pick. Take a QB. I'm sorry Weeden, you're a good guy I'm sure, but you need a dominant QB; someone who will put the franchise on their shoulders and take them to 12 wins. I just cannot see Weeden being that guy. He's probably a decent NFL QB, but that's not what a new regime needs, and it's certainly not a winning mentality.

2) Fire the hell out of Shurmur. Excuse me, Derpmur. Somehow, someway someone dubbed him a "great football mind" Yeah, I'm just not seeing that. Too many stupid mistakes that an NFL coach cannot make.

3) Keep Jauron on as D-Coordinator. He's not great, but he's the best D-Coordinator we're going to get that will not just bounce to a big market team when they have a few good years. Looking at you, Ryan.

4) Completely change the mentality of this team. Stop with the dances. Stop with the show boating. We are an embarrassment of a franchise right now, make sure they know that. Every time they do a little dance or show boat, the world laughs. Install a mentality where you go out and get the job done, THEN you can party and showboat.

5) Get the fanbase back on board. Be socially friendly. The president, GM...should all have a twitter. Reach out to Browns fans, let them know winning WILL be coming. I don't know how you get evryone excited, but at least show the fans you care and want to fix this debauchery.

6) Install some confidence in the young position players. Massaquoi, Benjamin, Little, Gordon...come on guys, catch the damn ball. It's not hard, you can do it, you're an NFL WR. Play big, and you will see a DRAMATIC change in the offense. Trent Richardson...keep up the "captain" mentality we've been hearing about. He may not be the next AP, but we don't need an AP, we just need a quality RB to go along with a dominant QB.

None of that seems too out of ordinary. None of it seems out of reach. Lets turn this sucker around!

I have no problem with your plan (assuming Weeden doesn't improve and completely blows), S&L but I don't see #3 happening. New regimes/head coaches typically bring in their own guys unless they were to hire someone like Andy Reid.

BR1986FB;1280051 wrote:I have no problem with your plan (assuming Weeden doesn't improve and completely blows), S&L but I don't see #3 happening. New regimes/head coaches typically bring in their own guys unless they were to hire someone like Andy Reid.

Yeah but Jauron has been around and has a lot of respect from people around the league...no one wants to come in with a Shurmur as their Coordinator...but if it's a seasoned vet coach with a good track record, how can you kick him out?

SportsAndLady;1280056 wrote:Yeah but Jauron has been around and has a lot of respect from people around the league...no one wants to come in with a Shurmur as their Coordinator...but if it's a seasoned vet coach with a good track record, how can you kick him out?

Because new regimes want "their guy." Just like if Weeden looks bad the whole year the new group will probably use the first rounder on their guy because they'll want to start over. Rarely do you see the dumbassery of Holmgren keeping a guy like Mangini around too long when their philosophies aren't the same.

Understood

BR1986FB;1280066 wrote:Because new regimes want "their guy." Just like if Weeden looks bad the whole year the new group will probably use the first rounder on their guy because they'll want to start over. Rarely do you see the dumbassery of Holmgren keeping a guy like Mangini around too long when their philosophies aren't the same.

That first year with Mangini was where Holmgren lost the fan base IMO.

Everyone realized it was a wasted year after the fact, and there was never the patience of the fan base to look at last year as year 1 of the rebuild the way they wanted everyone too after they realized their mistake. Holmgren is being paid $7 million a year to be able to see ahead of time that keeping Mangini was just never going to work with what he wanted to do with the team scheme wise.

They probably believe in their hearts this is really only year 2, and that we are being impatient as a fan base to expect the turn around that quickly.

It is just not realistic to expect the fans to excuse you for wasting a year of their and the organizations time because he didn't want to make a tough decision on Mangini at the time.

the point was made on wknr to compare us with the Texans---an expansion team that also blew their first pick on a QB that sucked (similar to us and Couch). Look where they are now and where we are now--polar opposites, all because they had a front office who knew what the heck they were doing.

Someone should change this thread title to 'Browns 2012-2013 off season".

0-3 already and winter is coming.

ricola;1280131 wrote:the point was made on wknr to compare us with the Texans---an expansion team that also blew their first pick on a QB that sucked (similar to us and Couch). Look where they are now and where we are now--polar opposites, all because they had a front office who knew what the heck they were doing.

I prefer to look at the Lions quite frankly.

In the span of 4 seasons they went from an 0-16 season 2008 and the worst team in NFL history to the playoffs in 2011. They were in the playoffs in year 3 of their rebuild.

That to me was as drastic a rebuild as one could ever see as that cupboard was completely bare other than Megatron, and it didn't take 20 years to do as we have been conditioned to think is necessary in Cleveland. They used the draft and free agency to build that team to where it is now.

It just shows it is doable if you don't tie your own hands ahead of time and stipulate that you won't use free agency, and you make sure you draft well.

^^ good points. I was going with the Texans because they are a pure expansion team, but The lions were indeed purely pathetic for years, and after the incompetence (Millen) was gotten rid of, they turned things around quickly. It indeed CAN be done quickly with the right people in charge--which obviously the Browns have not had since their return.

What do the Texans and Lions have in common? They each have a big time receiver, Something I have been wanting them to do the past few years. They would rather spend 2nd rounders on projects though, instead of drafting a guy high or make a big move in free agency (even if it involves overpaying a little bit). I mean Garcon is really helping RGIII out, just like Smith helped Cash out last season.

Pick6;1280166 wrote:What do the Texans and Lions have in common?

Their coach isn't an idiot.

Pick6;1280166 wrote:What do the Texans and Lions have in common? They each have a big time receiver, Something I have been wanting them to do the past few years. They would rather spend 2nd rounders on projects though, instead of drafting a guy high or make a big move in free agency (even if it involves overpaying a little bit). I mean Garcon is really helping RGIII out, just like Smith helped Cash out last season.

I think Gordon does have the talent to be that big time guy. He just needs some time. The new regime needs to fill the huge voids at guard, another big time receiver and possibly a qb. Then I think the offense would be set. The d needs a pass rusher, a corner, a safety and some impact line backers. I am honestly excited to see who banner will bring in as his gm. I really hope it's polian.

Commander of Awesome;1280178 wrote:Their coach isn't an idiot.

That as well. Coaching is the by far the biggest problem with this team IMO.