Why do you hate government

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Footwedge

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9,265 posts
Jul 29, 2012 9:31 AM
Don't like the government because they have their puppet strings pulled by the plutocrats and the oligarchs. Otherwise, we wouldn't have the Keynesian funded military with 4 wars and. 750 military bases around the world. We also would enjoy full employment here in the states if the government would be patriotic to the populace, instead of being patriotic to the corporate oligarchs and capitalist monopolists and their "legal cartels".
Jul 29, 2012 9:31am
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BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Jul 30, 2012 3:58 PM
Romney doesn't seem to hate government in Israel:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/zekejmiller/romney-praises-israels-socialized-health-care-sys

Romney noted how Israel's Healthcare costs are much lower than ours despite being a socialized healthcare system wherein everyone is entitled to health insurance.

It'd be interesting if we had anyone in the media worth his salt ask the the obvious question about why he might praise Israel's system which is socialism and much more efficient than our own while deride Obamacare which is not socialism but rather preserves private control of the means of production seeking to return, instead, to an even more inefficient system prior-obamacare.
Jul 30, 2012 3:58pm
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isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 30, 2012 4:32 PM
it must be the name, hell he was ok with it when it was Romney Care
Jul 30, 2012 4:32pm
ptown_trojans_1's avatar

ptown_trojans_1

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7,632 posts
Jul 30, 2012 9:21 PM
BoatShoes;1237153 wrote:Romney doesn't seem to hate government in Israel:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/zekejmiller/romney-praises-israels-socialized-health-care-sys

Romney noted how Israel's Healthcare costs are much lower than ours despite being a socialized healthcare system wherein everyone is entitled to health insurance.

It'd be interesting if we had anyone in the media worth his salt ask the the obvious question about why he might praise Israel's system which is socialism and much more efficient than our own while deride Obamacare which is not socialism but rather preserves private control of the means of production seeking to return, instead, to an even more inefficient system prior-obamacare.
Not to rain on the parade, but Obama has stated pretty much the same thing in 2008 before he was elected. In fact, Clinton even said the same thing.
Pretty much Obama and Romney have the same policy toward Israel and Iran if you dive into it.
Arms sales, missile defense cooperation, and intelligence sharing are the highest they have ever been. The DOD is partly funding the Israeli Iron Dome and David's Sling program.

On the healthcare, ehhh Israel is a small country, so it does not have a real comparison to here.
Jul 30, 2012 9:21pm
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BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Jul 30, 2012 9:52 PM
ptown_trojans_1;1237408 wrote:Not to rain on the parade, but Obama has stated pretty much the same thing in 2008 before he was elected. In fact, Clinton even said the same thing.
Pretty much Obama and Romney have the same policy toward Israel and Iran if you dive into it.
Arms sales, missile defense cooperation, and intelligence sharing are the highest they have ever been. The DOD is partly funding the Israeli Iron Dome and David's Sling program.

On the healthcare, ehhh Israel is a small country, so it does not have a real comparison to here.
No doubt their pre-election generalities are similar as all Romney has to do is speak in platitudes and smile and his job is done, but instead he's dropping the ball and praising a healthcare delivery system that is the type of thing that would be called communist in our own country. The size doesn't really matter...you take your economic experiments where you find them. Milton Friedman first used Tangir in order to promote freely floating exchange rates.
Jul 30, 2012 9:52pm
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Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jul 31, 2012 5:05 AM
BoatShoes;1237153 wrote:...
Romney noted how Israel's Healthcare costs are much lower than ours despite being a socialized healthcare system wherein everyone is entitled to health insurance.

It'd be interesting if we had anyone in the media worth his salt ask the the obvious question about why he might praise Israel's system which is socialism and much more efficient than our own while deride Obamacare which is not socialism but rather preserves private control of the means of production seeking to return, instead, to an even more inefficient system prior-obamacare.
Did the people of Israel choose this system? I truly don't know.

The backlash in the US has always seemed to be about forced commerce. Even if an option is the most efficient and cost effect you won't gain mass buy in when you force people like was done in this scenario.
Jul 31, 2012 5:05am
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Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jul 31, 2012 5:07 AM
isadore;1237181 wrote:it must be the name, hell he was ok with it when it was Romney Care
The difference was that as a State they were able to choose such a path. The feds forcing State's participation is not necessarily a good thing.
Jul 31, 2012 5:07am
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isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 31, 2012 8:27 AM
Con_Alma;1237634 wrote:The difference was that as a State they were able to choose such a path. The feds forcing State's participation is not necessarily a good thing.
the state "forced" people to participate in mass as national system would. in each case the law was passed by a majority of the people's representatives.
Jul 31, 2012 8:27am
E

elitesmithie05

Member

94 posts
Jul 31, 2012 3:39 PM
Since it wasn't explicitly stated in the Constitution therefore it is a State right. Huge difference.
isadore;1237669 wrote:the state "forced" people to participate in mass as national system would. in each case the law was passed by a majority of the people's representatives.
Jul 31, 2012 3:39pm
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isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 31, 2012 5:53 PM
elitesmithie05;1237962 wrote:Since it wasn't explicitly stated in the Constitution therefore it is a State right. Huge difference.
no there is something called implied and inherent powers. checkout mcculloch v maryland
Jul 31, 2012 5:53pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Aug 3, 2012 8:23 AM
we have higher infant mortality, shorter life expectancy and
NEWS: US #1 in deaths from preventable disease among industrialized countries

http://www.ufppc.org/us-a-world-news-mainmenu-35/7004-news-us-1-in-deaths-from-preventable-disease-among-industrialized-countries-ft.html

and by far the greatest cost
http://www.ohiochatter.com/forum/showthread.php?35658-Why-do-you-hate-government/page2
Aug 3, 2012 8:23am
cruiser_96's avatar

cruiser_96

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7,536 posts
Aug 3, 2012 9:20 AM
The assumption that a government can do for me (regarding my care of health) what I otherwise couldn't is ludicrous. The notion that government can do ANYTHING for its population cheaper than I could otherwise is just as silly. And the thought of the government taking thousands of dollars from its people for over a lifetime for a minimal existence for an additional 5 to 7 or even 8 or 10 years is a fool's trade in the light of freedom and liberty.

Few HATE government, as a whole. Most hate the intrusion for the sake of anything.

"The government that governs least, governs best." Civil Disobediance H.D. Thoreau
Aug 3, 2012 9:20am
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Aug 3, 2012 9:53 AM
cruiser_96;1239561 wrote:The assumption that a government can do for me (regarding my care of health) what I otherwise couldn't is ludicrous. The notion that government can do ANYTHING for its population cheaper than I could otherwise is just as silly. And the thought of the government taking thousands of dollars from its people for over a lifetime for a minimal existence for an additional 5 to 7 or even 8 or 10 years is a fool's trade in the light of freedom and liberty.

Few HATE government, as a whole. Most hate the intrusion for the sake of anything.

"The government that governs least, governs best." Civil Disobediance H.D. Thoreau
the last ten years of a person's life are not necessarily a minimal existence, especially in an industrialized state with a safety net. most people would be quite willing to pay thousands for that guarantee. Are you planning on being your own armed forces or just hiring your own military?
Aug 3, 2012 9:53am
cruiser_96's avatar

cruiser_96

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7,536 posts
Aug 3, 2012 10:19 AM
"...for that guarantee."

Huh... assuming in a GUARANTEE that the government can add one second to my life. Interesting.

"Are you planning on being your own armed forces or just hiring your own military?"

Huh. Thought we were talking health care. But, if someone would like to come in my house uninvited, sure, I'll team up with my Desert Eagle and we'll be our own military. But you probably meant as a national entity, in which you've shifted your argument, but that's fine. #GoalPostShifter
Aug 3, 2012 10:19am
said_aouita's avatar

said_aouita

Banned

8,532 posts
Aug 3, 2012 1:01 PM
Con_Alma;1236001 wrote:Diet and cultural habits have as much or more impact on life expectancy than they type of medical care provided or available.
This.
Aug 3, 2012 1:01pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Aug 3, 2012 3:27 PM
cruiser_96;1239589 wrote:"...for that guarantee."

Huh... assuming in a GUARANTEE that the government can add one second to my life. Interesting.

"Are you planning on being your own armed forces or just hiring your own military?"

Huh. Thought we were talking health care. But, if someone would like to come in my house uninvited, sure, I'll team up with my Desert Eagle and we'll be our own military. But you probably meant as a national entity, in which you've shifted your argument, but that's fine. #GoalPostShifter
cruiser_96 wrote: The notion that government can do ANYTHING for its population cheaper than I could otherwise is just as silly.
gosh a ruddies you made a blanket condemnation of government activity including national defense so hire your own army.
and jeez the industrialization nations provide a safety net for their citizens so they don't have to have a minimal existence the last ten years of our lives and thousand of dollars for 10 more years seem a pretty good deal.
Aug 3, 2012 3:27pm
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isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Aug 3, 2012 3:37 PM
said_aouita;1239688 wrote:This.
gosh a ruddies these nations with long life expectancies have greater government involvement than the us
but of course we can just blame the victims of our systems
for the high infant mortality
the high rate of death from prevenable diseases
the have shortened life expectancy , it is of course all their fault, not that of the most expensive health care system in the world.
Aug 3, 2012 3:37pm
cruiser_96's avatar

cruiser_96

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7,536 posts
Aug 3, 2012 3:50 PM
I'm not going to lie... I kind of like gosh a ruddies. If you don't mind, I'd like to add that to my lingo.
Aug 3, 2012 3:50pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Aug 3, 2012 3:53 PM
please be my guest.
Aug 3, 2012 3:53pm
pmoney25's avatar

pmoney25

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1,787 posts
Aug 3, 2012 4:42 PM
isadore;1239794 wrote:gosh a ruddies these nations with long life expectancies have greater government involvement than the us
but of course we can just blame the victims of our systems
for the high infant mortality
the high rate of death from prevenable diseases
the have shortened life expectancy , it is of course all their fault, not that of the most expensive health care system in the world.

I know you will probably not give a straight answer but do you think the American diet and food system have anything to do with us having more problems and cost or is it strictly our healthcare system? Do Americans share any blame for poor health choices?
Aug 3, 2012 4:42pm
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isadore

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7,762 posts
Aug 3, 2012 5:51 PM
all I see is a failed health system whose advocates continuously make excuses for it by blaming its victims. poor get screwed.]\
for example
social security administration study. Look at Table 4: since 1977, the life expectancy of male workers retiring at age 65 has risen 6 years in the top half of the income distribution, but only 1.3 years in the bottom half.
http://www.ohiochatter.com/forum/showthread.php?35658-Why-do-you-hate-government/page2
Aug 3, 2012 5:51pm
pmoney25's avatar

pmoney25

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1,787 posts
Aug 3, 2012 6:13 PM
isadore;1239879 wrote:all I see is a failed health system whose advocates continuously make excuses for it by blaming its victims. poor get screwed.]\
for example
social security administration study. Look at Table 4: since 1977, the life expectancy of male workers retiring at age 65 has risen 6 years in the top half of the income distribution, but only 1.3 years in the bottom half.
http://www.ohiochatter.com/forum/showthread.php?35658-Why-do-you-hate-government/page2

I am not blaming the victims and believe me I am not an advocate of the recent system as I am not an advocate of the ACA. I am just wondering if you think our life choices have any effect on health care. Do you think that less people will be obese and excercise more? Do you think people will smoke/drink less and eat healthier food? It seems to me you think poor people cannot make healthy life choices?
Aug 3, 2012 6:13pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Aug 3, 2012 6:44 PM
isadore;1239575 wrote:the last ten years of a person's life are not necessarily a minimal existence, especially in an industrialized state with a safety net. . most people would be quite willing to pay thousands for that guarantee....
Then let us choose.
Aug 3, 2012 6:44pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Aug 3, 2012 7:16 PM
isadore;1239575 wrote:most people would be quite willing to pay thousands for that guarantee.
Ummmm, how about TENS OF THOUSANDS, forcibly (i.e. 1.2% Medicare portion of FICA for our adult working lives). Actually, by the time I retire this "guarantee" will have cost me @ $100k (assuming modest investment returns).


edit: how sloppy of me...I forgot the employer match which technically is my income...so double that and make it TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND. That buys a hell of a lot of insurance on the open market.
Aug 3, 2012 7:16pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Aug 3, 2012 7:35 PM
gut;1239906 wrote:Ummmm, how about TENS OF THOUSANDS, forcibly (i.e. 1.2% Medicare portion of FICA for our adult working lives). Actually, by the time I retire this "guarantee" will have cost me @ $100k (assuming modest investment returns).


edit: how sloppy of me...I forgot the employer match which technically is my income...so double that and make it TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND. That buys a hell of a lot of insurance on the open market.
gosh aruddies that is not my number, I was using crusier_96 numbers, cruiser is an opponent of government medical system
cruiser_96 wrote:And the thought of the government taking thousands of dollars from its people for over a lifetime for a minimal existence for an additional 5 to 7 or even 8 or 10 years is a fool's trade in the light of freedom and liberty.
the attitude you express is the one that if carried out will cause the poor, especially the working to suffer if we depend on private coverage. of course it all falls back to the basic right philosophy, i got mine, screw you.
Aug 3, 2012 7:35pm