O-Trap;1234570 wrote:Doing things together isn't inherently Marxist. .

I didn't say they were necessarily, but in the current context of the president (government 'leader') twisting reality to say that government is the reason for private success and effectively imploring us all to continue to pony up to government so that THEY ALL can keep making us successful is an attempt to validate collectivism.

It doesn't take a village to raise a child, and it sure as he!! doesn't take government to raise one either. obama is being found out, and it sure is about time.

Finally saw the obama's speech instead of hearing snippets of it on the radio and wow...it's clear he was talking about business owners not building the roads and bridges. He's saying they didn't build the roads and bridges...not that papa john didn't create papa john's. Here I was thinking it was just a poor way of saying they didn't build it on their own (although it was in that general context). Deliberate misrepresentation on this issue.

And then, Mitt Romney went on to say this:

"I know that you recognize a lot of people help you in a business. Perhaps the bank, the investors. There is no question your mom and dad, your school teachers. The people who provide roads, the fire, the police. A lot of people help."

which is more or less the same thing Obama was saying but QuakerOats wouldn't say that's revealing Romney's marxist heart.

BoatShoes;1234721 wrote:Finally saw the obama's speech instead of hearing snippets of it on the radio and wow...it's clear he was talking about business owners not building the roads and bridges. He's saying they didn't build the roads and bridges...not that papa john didn't create papa john's. Here I was thinking it was just a poor way of saying they didn't build it on their own (although it was in that general context). Deliberate misrepresentation on this issue.

And then, Mitt Romney went on to say this:

"I know that you recognize a lot of people help you in a business. Perhaps the bank, the investors. There is no question your mom and dad, your school teachers. The people who provide roads, the fire, the police. A lot of people help."

which is more or less the same thing Obama was saying but QuakerOats wouldn't say that's revealing Romney's marxist heart.

He is indeed saying much the same thing. I didn't watch Obama's speech, but I read it here. I agree that he didn't mean that entrepreneurs aren't responsible for starting their companies, but it did seem like he was indicating that they weren't exclusively.

BoatShoes;1234721 wrote:Finally saw the obama's speech instead of hearing snippets of it on the radio and wow...it's clear he was talking about business owners not building the roads and bridges. He's saying they didn't build the roads and bridges...not that papa john didn't create papa john's. Here I was thinking it was just a poor way of saying they didn't build it on their own (although it was in that general context). Deliberate misrepresentation on this issue.

And then, Mitt Romney went on to say this:

"I know that you recognize a lot of people help you in a business. Perhaps the bank, the investors. There is no question your mom and dad, your school teachers. The people who provide roads, the fire, the police. A lot of people help."

which is more or less the same thing Obama was saying but QuakerOats wouldn't say that's revealing Romney's marxist heart.

The difference was definitely there in the 'tone' and as well in the magnitude of how much of a help the public services is to a business.

Mitt, like most, admit that obviously these things help. However, the part that the President, and the liberals, are leaving out is that these said business owners are the ones PAYING FOR the roads, public education, etc since they have a VERY high tax rate compared to most individuals.

Between payroll taxes and corporate profit taxes, small businesses pay far more (on average) than individuals. The liberals are acting like the government gave businesses these public services but in reality business owners PAID FOR these public services.

But doesn't he have a history of wanting to FORCE things upon people, specifically business owners or otherwise successful Americans?

O-Trap;1234570 wrote:Doing things together isn't inherently Marxist. FORCING collective action is, but simply having a teacher that helps you beyond what is necessary or having a parent or parents who are particularly nurturing ... that can be seen as aiding in your success collectively. Ever hear a "thank you" speech by someone after having won an award? They thank people who helped them achieve something. That's not a Marxist principle.

It was other elements of his speech about furthering the funding of a single source of "helpers" without competition on the grounds that they've helped people that I took issue with.

jmog;1234750 wrote:The difference was definitely there in the 'tone' and as well in the magnitude of how much of a help the public services is to a business.

This. The tone is that most of your success is owed to those "roads & bridges". That really discredits the talent and accomplishments of the entrepreneur, while also ignoring (as you point out) that they've paid more than their share for those roads and bridges (and what about the people who provide services and don't use the roads to ship anything?). And I just can't get past this, either - "WE" built those roads and bridges? No, half of us did.

And, really, I have to pick a bone with "hiring workers we educated". Technically, the worker is the one really benefiting from the education (in fact, most jobs train people with school/grades being more or less a signal or filter), and that worker pays that education back with taxes on his wages (well, half of them).

gut;1234758 wrote:This. The tone is that most of your success is owed to those "roads & bridges". That really discredits the talent and accomplishments of the entrepreneur, while also ignoring (as you point out) that they've paid more than their share for those roads and bridges (and what about the people who provide services and don't use the roads to ship anything?)

And, really, I have to pick a bone with "hiring workers we educated". Technically, the worker is the one really benefiting from the education (in fact, most jobs train people with school/grades being more or less a signal or filter), and that worker pays that education back with taxes on his wages (well, half of them).

Especially when he said "There are a lot of smart people out there...Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there."

That couple sentences set the tone for his 'faux pas' that came a few lines later "You didn't build that".

Yes, when he said the actual words 'You didn't build that' he was specifically talking about roads and bridges. There is NO DOUBT he completely blew the line he was trying to say, since he actually said, in the same sentence "If you've got a business -- you didn't build that. Somebody else made that
happen."

No doubt it was a 'gotcha' moment that will be played throughout the campaign, but there is no doubt the tone of his whole speach was that there are a lot of people, smart hard working people (aka just as good as you) that didn't make it. He was almost suggesting that if you have a successful business it was the help of the public services and luck that made it successful, not because you were smart about how you set up your business and you worked hard.

There is no denying, even by the isadore's and Boatshoe's of this board, that his tone was to minimize the business owners affect of his own success.

Now, has Romney and conservatives taken his one VERY BAD line out of context? Yes, no doubt.

However, let's not act like his whole speech was just talking about how the government has helped them somewhat, now you guys are minimizing his intended context.

elitesmithie05;1234757 wrote:But doesn't he have a history of wanting to FORCE things upon people, specifically business owners or otherwise successful Americans?

I would suggest he does, but the words themselves here aren't inherently Marxist. If a Marxist has children, and he tells them that it is good to share, he's not exhibiting Marxism in that moment, even if he does do so regularly.

jmog;1234750 wrote:The difference was definitely there in the 'tone' and as well in the magnitude of how much of a help the public services is to a business.

Mitt, like most, admit that obviously these things help. However, the part that the President, and the liberals, are leaving out is that these said business owners are the ones PAYING FOR the roads, public education, etc since they have a VERY high tax rate compared to most individuals.

Between payroll taxes and corporate profit taxes, small businesses pay far more (on average) than individuals. The liberals are acting like the government gave businesses these public services but in reality business owners PAID FOR these public services.

Thank you.

I'm no Obama fan, but this quote is taken way out of context. Unbelievable it has gotten this much attention

jordo212000;1234853 wrote:I'm no Obama fan, but this quote is taken way out of context. Unbelievable it has gotten this much attention

I disagree. You expand it a line or two, and it appears to be taken out of context. But you expand a few more lines and it really is not taken out of context. It's maybe being exaggerated, but its unmistakeable that Obama is diminishing the accomplishments of business owners to stoke the flames of class warfare, and to shame successful people into paying even more of their "fair share".

gut;1234854 wrote:I disagree. You expand it a line or two, and it appears to be taken out of context. But you expand a few more lines and it really is not taken out of context. It's maybe being exaggerated, but its unmistakeable that Obama is diminishing the accomplishments of business owners to stoke the flames of class warfare, and to shame successful people into paying even more of their "fair share".

I thought liberals might be embarassed back when Elizabeth Warren said it in a much more arrogant, scolding tone. The fact that Obama repeated the same theme almost verbatim is the context; the details fall into place. I literally could not believe when I heard him saying the same thing. At least I thought he would pretend, for political purposes, he doesn't embrace that philosophy.

Ghmothwdwhso;1233966 wrote:I have thought this since Obama won the election in late 2007, and probably even leading up to that when businesses thought he might win the election. People or Businesses with "REAL" money do not like uncertainty, they can be quite flexible in their investments/business decisions, but like like to know a direction, either way.

I think you will see an immediate pickup in the economy if Romney is elected. I also believe there will be a large pickup if Obama wins, but not until 2014ish, unless the GOP takes both the Senate and the House, then it will be immediate. Smart money stays close to the vest.

This is just foolish talk. The economy will only pick up when consumers have enough money to buy goods/services. It doesn't matter one bit who is in the White House if I cannot afford that new car or appliance.

The government has never helped nor provides me with any type of support in business.
They take, dictate and overstep what they are clueless about, add meaning less busy work and unproductive regulations. Remember most Politians and government emplyees are not risk taker/ entrepreneurs

I can create right now 4-6 jobs with $100,000.00 grant (not a loan I have already invested 250,000) with the potential of 10 within less than 2 years. I have a new product, design and technology ….. Each level of government passed to other departments and never accomplish anything. As a small business owner I don’t have the time or the hoop jumping skills to deal with political incompetency. Government is run by those who are not entrepreneurial and taking risk is not understood to them. They can piss tax payer money away and justify their action but they can’t do anything that requires initiative.


Once any business is proven to be successful Politian and Government hacks all want to cut ribbons and take pictures

Government builds nothing, produces nothing, creates nothing and inspires nothing without my personal and business successful tax money.
Not one road was built with homeless taxes, uneployment income taxes and welfare taxes files.

Belly35;1235165 wrote:The government has never helped nor provides me with any type of support in business.
They take, dictate and overstep what they are clueless about, add meaning less busy work and unproductive regulations. Remember most Politians and government emplyees are not risk taker/ entrepreneurs

I can create right now 4-6 jobs with $100,000.00 grant (not a loan I have already invested 250,000) with the potential of 10 within less than 2 years. I have a new product, design and technology ….. Each level of government passed to other departments and never accomplish anything. As a small business owner I don’t have the time or the hoop jumping skills to deal with political incompetency. Government is run by those who are not entrepreneurial and taking risk is not understood to them. They can piss tax payer money away and justify their action but they can’t do anything that requires initiative.


Once any business is proven to be successful Politian and Government hacks all want to cut ribbons and take pictures

Government builds nothing, produces nothing, creates nothing and inspires nothing without my personal and business successful tax money.
Not one road was built with homeless taxes, uneployment income taxes and welfare taxes files.

EXACTLY. We live it everyday.

jhay78;1234939 wrote:I thought liberals might be embarassed back when Elizabeth Warren said it in a much more arrogant, scolding tone. The fact that Obama repeated the same theme almost verbatim is the context; the details fall into place. I literally could not believe when I heard him saying the same thing. At least I thought he would pretend, for political purposes, he doesn't embrace that philosophy.

BINGO !!!!!!!!!

Obama has built this: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/27/economic-growth-slowed-to-15-percent-rate-in-2nd-quarter-slowest-in-year/



How can Obama and his administration even defend this ....? I know blame Bush, ATM, Weather and everything else but the problem..... Obama and socialist mentality and the Democrat agenda..

• 

Belly35;1235165 wrote:The government has never helped nor provides me with any type of support in business.
They take, dictate and overstep what they are clueless about, add meaning less busy work and unproductive regulations. Remember most Politians and government emplyees are not risk taker/ entrepreneurs

I can create right now 4-6 jobs with $100,000.00 grant (not a loan I have already invested 250,000) with the potential of 10 within less than 2 years. I have a new product, design and technology ….. Each level of government passed to other departments and never accomplish anything. As a small business owner I don’t have the time or the hoop jumping skills to deal with political incompetency. Government is run by those who are not entrepreneurial and taking risk is not understood to them. They can piss tax payer money away and justify their action but they can’t do anything that requires initiative.


Once any business is proven to be successful Politian and Government hacks all want to cut ribbons and take pictures

Government builds nothing, produces nothing, creates nothing and inspires nothing without my personal and business successful tax money.
Not one road was built with homeless taxes, uneployment income taxes and welfare taxes files.

Belly, since you opened yourself up what is your "business" Give us a little detail, so far everyone that has jumped on this misquote have received some kind of government help. I suspect you have also but do you have the guts to come clean? I suspect you will continue to hide behind the internet.

ccrunner609;1235321 wrote:Once again his point is clear. Individual success and individual wealth is what he is against.

Based on today's report of 1.5% economic "growth" in the 2nd quarter, Barry should be dancing around the West Wing as individual success and wealth are clearly failing.

I just don't understand his support. His utter failure in leadership and ignorance of how capitalism functions is astounding and yet, some people are just busting at the seams to acquire 4 more years of more economic devastation. What more evidence do people need that Obama is one of the most inept Presidents of all time?

BGFalcons82;1235349 wrote:I just don't understand his support. His utter failure in leadership and ignorance of how capitalism functions is astounding and yet, some people are just busting at the seams to acquire 4 more years of more economic devastation. What more evidence do people need that Obama is one of the most inept Presidents of all time?

Because, when push comes to shove, the other side is more concerned with delving into the "true meaning" of bland quotes such as the one in this thread in order to "score points" instead of actually providing logical, factual reasoning behind what isn't working and why a change needs to be made. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, since the same sort of thing happens every election season, but it does get kind of tricky to delve into the actual nuts and bolts of things concerning candidates and their policies when you have to dig through epic retardation like the birthers and the people over-exaggerating the meaning of this quote to the same degree Isadore over-exaggerates every single point it tries to make.

Abe Vigoda;1235314 wrote:Belly, since you opened yourself up what is your "business" Give us a little detail, so far everyone that has jumped on this misquote have received some kind of government help. I suspect you have also but do you have the guts to come clean? I suspect you will continue to hide behind the internet.

My personal identity and the anonymity of my business will remain status quo.
I have shared this information with a few creditable OC individual and the legalistic of my business are documented so your comment is unwarranted and the idea to do so is ludicrous

Heretic;1235360 wrote:Because, when push comes to shove, the other side is more concerned with delving into the "true meaning" of bland quotes such as the one in this thread in order to "score points" instead of actually providing logical, factual reasoning behind what isn't working and why a change needs to be made. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, since the same sort of thing happens every election season, but it does get kind of tricky to delve into the actual nuts and bolts of things concerning candidates and their policies when you have to dig through epic retardation like the birthers and the people over-exaggerating the meaning of this quote to the same degree Isadore over-exaggerates every single point it tries to make.

I'm going to agree the other side should be making more cogent economic proposals. They should also be talking more of what their presidency will look like, to mimick their "1st Day in Office" ad campaign. They need to be more positive about what will change.

On the other hand, Obama has failed across the board. What motivates people to want more failure? Is it the lack of tax returns by his opponent? Do the "birthers" cause such outrage, even though they don't have one scintilla of power? Are you afraid that fiscal restraint will be more pain than what we already have? By the way, fiscal restraint is like Fram Oil Filters...it's coming so we either pay for it now, or through our busted-up country later.

Heretic;1235360 wrote:Because, when push comes to shove, the other side is more concerned with delving into the "true meaning" of bland quotes such as the one in this thread in order to "score points" instead of actually providing logical, factual reasoning behind what isn't working and why a change needs to be made. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, since the same sort of thing happens every election season, but it does get kind of tricky to delve into the actual nuts and bolts of things concerning candidates and their policies when you have to dig through epic retardation like the birthers and the people over-exaggerating the meaning of this quote to the same degree Isadore over-exaggerates every single point it tries to make.

More or less agree, but the quote in question happens to be one of the more effective soundbites that is very telling as far as Obama's general philosophy and views. Soundbites and talking points are almost always insufficient, but in a short-attention span and ignorant US that's what politics has become. I didn't see anyone defending several of Santorum's foot-in-mouth moments that were equally taken out of context and abused. Or how about the Obama ad that repeatedly skirts facts and accuracy by citing the Washington Post to pound Romney as a "pioneer of job outsourcing"?

BGFalcons82;1235349 wrote: I just don't understand his support. His utter failure in leadership and ignorance of how capitalism functions is astounding and yet, some people are just busting at the seams to acquire 4 more years of more economic devastation. What more evidence do people need that Obama is one of the most inept Presidents of all time?

What's the number on how many people vote straight Dem/Repub every election? Add to that the "double down on a loser" mentality and although most are far less excited about Obama than 4 years ago, they hold a sliver of hope that 4 more years can prove them correct.

Interestingly enough, I did not like McCain, at all, and Obama was charismatic and compelling. Still, I could not bring myself to vote for Obama because I though he was an absolute lightweight (to put it mildly) on economic issues, and unfortunately that has proven true.