Con_Alma wrote: Who is making themselves believe? There are people who buy these and know exactly what they are.

Anyone who's bought one and tells themselves it's as good if not better then a higher end car.
I've never had a problem with my Mustang, but I'm not gonna sit here and try to convince you or me that it's as good as BMW Z8. When you actually look at the time/money invested in a higher end car, it's ridiculous to justify a comparison just b/c you have one and like it. From the motor, to the drivetrain down to the damn turn signal button, everything is made cheaper in a low end car.

ZWICK 4 PREZ wrote:

Con_Alma wrote: Who is making themselves believe? There are people who buy these and know exactly what they are.

Anyone who's bought one and tells themselves it's as good if not better then a higher end car.
I've never had a problem with my Mustang, but I'm not gonna sit here and try to convince you or me that it's as good as BMW Z8. When you actually look at the time/money invested in a higher end car, it's ridiculous to justify a comparison just b/c you have one and like it. From the motor, to the drivetrain down to the damn turn signal button, everything is made cheaper in a low end car.

Wait, you are saying that my Accord isn't made as well as my brothers Benz?

What you are saying is right. You get what you pay for. Some lower end cars are built better than others and they may last a long time but in the end it is still a low end car. Saying that, there is nothing wrong with owning and driving them.

"Anyone who's bought one and tells themselves it's as good if not better then a higher end car. ..."

Well, I guess that's kind of obvious.

It may be better from a cash flow and entry point value but of course is made cheaper in a low end car. That's kind of the point.

...and the manufacturers job is to push the envelope of it being a low end car to attract those just above the low end purchasing market. That's their responsibility in increasing sales.

It my opinion the US auto market has failed for a long time in creating the perception of "want and desire" in their product lines. I really don't know if Hyundai is any good at this but I do know the US auto manufacturers stink at it. If Hyundai is making people want their cars they are doing better job and deserve to be rewarded with sales.

Again though, like most things the market will buy, long term, what they want which when it comes to cars is based on what makes them feel good as a purchaser and what provides them a good perceived value. That's where the quality comes into play. The overall cash flow throughout the life of the product.

Con_Alma wrote:
Well, I guess that's kind of obvious.

I guess it isn't b/c people on this very thread are claiming their Hyundai is better than a higher end car lol

It is better from a cash flow perspective at the time of purchase. Isn't it? With all the little features you can get for a small price in the beginning I can see how such a conclusion is come to.

ZWICK 4 PREZ wrote:

Con_Alma wrote:
Well, I guess that's kind of obvious.

I guess it isn't b/c people on this very thread are claiming their Hyundai is better than a higher end car lol

And several well-respected automotive publications agree with one such person. Of course, you know better.

Several-well respected automotive publications also base their reviews off a test drive and haven't the slightest idea or even an inclination of knowing what actually went in to making the car, let alone who produced it's parts. They're not concerned in the least of how this car will hold up in 5 years. The quality standards alone that that Lexus went thru just in its paint application far exceeds any test any Hyundai will ever go through... Sorry, but that's the truth.

Con_Alma wrote: It is better from a cash flow perspective at the time of purchase. Isn't it? With all the little features you can get for a small price in the beginning I can see how such a conclusion is come to.

If it's more important to you that you saved a few thousand at the initial purchase, more so than the entire life of the car.. then yes... you got a hell of a deal.

It's not to me but many people it is and the market is showing that.

Con_Alma wrote: It's not to me but many people it is and the market is showing that.

But it doesn't negate that fact that you received an inferior car quality wise.. which was my point.

Fine, you're the expert here with with your vast experience bolting on aftermarket toys. I've just built project cars from the ground up for longer than you've been alive. I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about.

justincredible wrote: Ford is the official vehicle manufacturer of Freehuddle.

That what I'm talking about I'm a member for life now!

On the Mitsubishi thing though I owned a 99 Chrysler Sebring LXi which was basically a Mitsubishi. I put over 250,000 miles on the car and never had a big problem. Would still have it, if I didn't run it into a small pond on a back road. There was a road under the pond just flooded after heavy thunderstorms. The only gripe I had was the cost of parts for it, a stupid pulley was over $100 and the alternator was in the bottom back area of the engine and took me six hours to change. Oh yeah and the overhead valve v-6 makes it annoying when changing plugs, having to pull intake off just to get to the plugs.

"But it doesn't negate that fact that you received an inferior car quality wise.. which was my point. "

...but my point is that people are not willing to pay above their price point for a better quality ...which was my point.

There is a point of diminishing return...from a sales perspective. You know that. The best man in my wedding is a transmission transaxle design engineer for your beloved Ford Motor Company. He has been for 20 years now. He would love to make the ultimate rear-end but economics don't enable him to. People don't want the best...they want the best they can get for the price they are willing to pay.

queencitybuckeye wrote: My Veracruz is a better vehicle than the comparable Lexus. Not better for the money, better.

Wait...what?

Better than the RX350?

queencitybuckeye wrote: Fine, you're the expert here with with your vast experience bolting on aftermarket toys. I've just built project cars from the ground up for longer than you've been alive. I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about.

Yeah since you obviously know me so well ... You must have forgotten that my livelihood is in the auto industry and spend weeks at car manufacturers plants helping determine failure issues and life testing applications. I know a little bit about the auto industry. I know a little bit about their QA practices.
That's great you know about cars.. I know a little bit too.. But I'm more than fairly certain I know a little more about the auto industry than most on here.

Con_Alma wrote: "But it doesn't negate that fact that you received an inferior car quality wise.. which was my point. "

...but my point is that people are not willing to pay above their price point for a better quality ...which was my point.

There is a point of diminishing return...from a sales perspective. You know that. The best man in my wedding is a transmission transaxle design engineer for your beloved Ford Motor Company. He has been for 20 years now. He would love to make the ultimate rear-end but economics don't enable him to. People don't want the best...they want the best they can get for the price they are willing to pay.

That's fine, but you're making an entirely different point.

People do inherently want the best. They don't want to pay for the best though. So, as your friend knows, you design your product to meet your specifications. You don't over engineer b/c no one wants to pay for it. In this case, it's not so much of an engineering issue, as much as a qualitive issue. If you make junk steel, you get junk bearings. The products Hyundai and the likes buy are cheaper b/c of quality. Different manufacturers have different specs for the material they buy.. It's no secret that Ford, GM, Honda, and Toyota have higher qualitive specs than Hyundai and other low end cars. That's the only point I'm trying to make here.

justincredible wrote: Ford is the official vehicle manufacturer of Freehuddle.

You damn straight!

"That's fine, but you're making an entirely different point. ..."

Different point than what? ...your point? I was hoping to.

I confirmed my belief of your point several times, no?

My point is that Hyundai has been increasing market share by expanding their presence in the US and because of the desire by the market to have what they offer They continue to push the upper boundary of their "product fit' by doing a better job off making their product wanted and desired.

Yeah, it's a different point. Why would you assume it was anything but? That's what I was going for.

Con_Alma wrote: "That's fine, but you're making an entirely different point. ..."

Different point than what? ...your point? I was hoping to.

I confirmed my belief of your point several times, no?

My point is that Hyundai has been increasing market share by expanding their presence in the US and because of the desire by the market to have what they offer They continue to push the upper boundary of their "product fit' by doing a better job off making their product wanted and desired.

Yeah, it's a different point. Why would you assume it was anything but? That's what I was going for.

And I agreed with you. I think I could have worded my post better when I said "You're only making yourself believe it's on the same level of some of the other cars." I wasn't directing that to you, just speaking in generalities.

I gottcha.

ZWICK 4 PREZ wrote: Honestly, spend a week at Ford or GM and a week at Hyundai or Mitsubishi and get back to me. This isn't Honda or Toyota we're talking about. You're talking about bottom of the liner, cheapest of cheap in these cars. I'd possibly validate your opinion if it were Toyota.

I'm not talking about the manufacturer as a whole--I'm talking about the Genesis. Nothing with FORD on it touches the Genesis. I don't care to debate with you because clearly you feel like you know more than anyone else--but I know I'm right. Don't assume that you're the only car nut on the site, your Ford bias is showing in a big way. Don't get me wrong--I'm an all American kind of guy, but that's a true statement.

I'm late to this game, but what Hyundai has done is truly amazing, they went from a crap Korean car company with no marketability to a very respectful automobile company. I'd drive a Veracruz or Genesis any day of the week. These are very good vehicles. I'm more of a Honda/Acura person so we stick to our TSX/MDX autos, but I'd definintely buy a Hyundai, certainly more than I would a Trailblazer or Explorer, maybe not more than a Tahoe/Yukon, but we aren't in the market for those.

My sister is driving a rental car today b/c her starter in her 2008 Santa Fe with 13,000 miles died. Korean parts at their finest.

Have a 2004 Hyandai Sonata with 125,000 on it and it runs like the first day I bought it. Brakes and tires at 70K are the only major additions so far. Plan to get to 150K and the get another one.

Oh Jesus, I could post thousands of horror stories about Ford too--stop generalizing so much. I was just talking about the Genesis, not the automaker as a whole. But your bias is unreal. Like I said, I'm an All-American guy (in the summer I drive a Stang--you'd like it, and a 70 Chevelle) but I'm not stupid.