O-Trap;1198947 wrote:I'm thinking Jesus would just be trying to cover a spread on a bet like that.

you are a funny guy, but if I understand the bet, there is no spread. it is straight up.

I Wear Pants;1198855 wrote:You can PM me if you'd like so we don't derail the thread. But how is the evidence for evolution not overwhelming? We can literally watch it happen and have done so in countless published studies, we can see the fossil records, we can study DNA, etc, etc. It is overwhelming.

Your earth is flat comparison is inaccurate because the evidence was not overwhelming that the Earth was flat. People merely weren't studying it or at least not thinking about it scientifically.

We've had this discussion ad nauseum. No need to hash it out again.

I Wear Pants;1198851 wrote:"Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact. The agnostic atheist may be contrasted with the agnostic theist, who does believe that one or more deities exist but claims that the existence or nonexistence of such is unknown or cannot be known"

You can be theistic and agnostic and atheistic and agnostic at the same time.

And you're an atheist of Odin I would assume.

I can buy that. Like I said, I am not an expert in the definitions of metaphysical world views.

I Wear Pants;1198948 wrote:Scumbag Jesus...knows he's going to lose a bet to you...

Makes it near impossible for rich people to get into heaven.

Easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle, so I hear.

Theologically speaking, Jesus wouldn't necessarily know he was going to lose the bet. Prognostication being a God-thing, and with him putting the free-will use of his "Godness" aside while on earth, he would not be able to just tell the future whenever he wanted.

However, Jesus didn't seem like the wealthiest of gents (kinda pokes a hole in the whole "religion as a whole is in it for the money" thing). I bet he'd wager with fish or bread. Maybe a nice piece for furniture (carpentry being in his family and all).

isadore;1198951 wrote:you are a funny guy, but if I understand the bet, there is no spread. it is straight up.

I suppose you're right. I'm thinking in terms of how many people will change each other's mind.

It would appear that IWP just changed mine ... possibly jmog's as well.

isadore;1198940 wrote:which way is Jesus betting?

He us betting that you guys will persuade each other.....I'm gonna win.

I Wear Pants;1198948 wrote:Scumbag Jesus...knows he's going to lose a bet to you...

Makes it near impossible for rich people to get into heaven.

Sorry sleeper....no heaven it appears.

Jesus hates LeBron

Ironman92;1198971 wrote:Jesus hates LeBron

That bumper sticker would sell eh?

O-Trap;1198958 wrote:I suppose you're right. I'm thinking in terms of how many people will change each other's mind.

It would appear that IWP just changed mine ... possibly jmog's as well.

On just that one small thing.

I truly am not interested nor do I expect to convince people that there is no god. I merely like having discussions about why people believe things. Because honestly if you're not discriminating against people because of your beliefs, trying to restrict science because of them, or otherwise harming people it doesn't hurt me one bit. "it does me no injury for my neighbor to say that there are 20 gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg". -Thomas Jefferson.

So insomuch as a theist isn't harming others or directly pestering me ("you'll burn in hell", etc) I don't see why I'd be bothered by it. The problem is that it doesn't seem to work in the reverse. People, especially in this country tend to get very upset when they learn you're an atheist.

Either way, I hope that people who talk about these sort of things no matter if they're a theist or not continue to look into them. I hope theists take the time to give an open minded read to Hitchens and Dawkins and Sagan and Harris and others like them just like I hope atheists continue to study holy texts so that both can learn of places they may be wrong and reaffirm their beliefs (or lack of) in others.

I would hope that no one on this forum has gotten upset to learn that you are an atheist. I couldn't imagine why one would.

I Wear Pants;1198981 wrote:On just that one small thing.

I truly am not interested nor do I expect to convince people that there is no god. I merely like having discussions about why people believe things. Because honestly if you're not discriminating against people because of your beliefs, trying to restrict science because of them, or otherwise harming people it doesn't hurt me one bit. "it does me no injury for my neighbor to say that there are 20 gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg". -Thomas Jefferson.

So insomuch as a theist isn't harming others or directly pestering me ("you'll burn in hell", etc) I don't see why I'd be bothered by it. The problem is that it doesn't seem to work in the reverse. People, especially in this country tend to get very upset when they learn you're an atheist.

Either way, I hope that people who talk about these sort of things no matter if they're a theist or not continue to look into them. I hope theists take the time to give an open minded read to Hitchens and Dawkins and Sagan and Harris and others like them just like I hope atheists continue to study holy texts so that both can learn of places they may be wrong and reaffirm their beliefs (or lack of) in others.

+1

Well done, young Skywalker. :thumbup:

IWP in today's world the trend is that more and more atheists are "militant" when they find out someone is a Christian (see sleeper).

I agree that too many Christians act like idiots when they find out someone is an atheist, but that pendulum is starting to swing the other way.

jmog;1198998 wrote:IWP in today's world the trend is that more and more atheists are "militant" when they find out someone is a Christian (see sleeper).

I agree that too many Christians act like idiots when they find out someone is an atheist, but that pendulum is starting to swing the other way.

I would disagree with that but even then, a militant atheist argues with people a lot and can be dicks. You don't see atheists out there disowning their kids for being theists or other shit like that. Then you bring history into it, theists killed and tortured non-believers for the last 1000 or probably more years and still are in some places and perhaps you can understand some of the frustration.

I Wear Pants;1199003 wrote:... Then you bring history into it, theists killed and tortured non-believers for the last 1000 or probably more years and still are in some places and perhaps you can understand some of the frustration.

Are you stating that you are frustrated with the actions of Christians?

Con_Alma;1199014 wrote:Are you stating that you are frustrated with the actions of Christians?

Not just Christians. I'm frustrated by any idea or group that makes people torture and murder others because they don't believe the same. But especially so with religions because most of the major religions now even say themselves that it's a matter of faith (a point of pride in some religions it would seem). If it's a matter of faith and not something that is clear based on evidence and such why in the actual fuck would you torture or kill someone over it?

I Wear Pants;1199016 wrote:Not just Christians. I'm frustrated by any idea or group that makes people torture and murder others because they don't believe the same. But especially so with religions because most of the major religions now even say themselves that it's a matter of faith (a point of pride in some religions it would seem). If it's a matter of faith and not something that is clear based on evidence and such why in the actual **** would you torture or kill someone over it?

I understand you posts better now. If frustration is the motivation then you have clarified your stance for me. Thank you.

Regarding your question. I wouldn't and never have.

I Wear Pants;1198981 wrote:On just that one small thing.

Ah, but this is precisely how worldviews change! It is a beautiful thing!

Much like the evolution of a species into a new species, the evolution of a worldview takes time, and is likely the result of many small changes, without necessarily a large one.

I Wear Pants;1198981 wrote: I truly am not interested nor do I expect to convince people that there is no god. I merely like having discussions about why people believe things.

Epistemology. I'm a big fan of it as well.

I Wear Pants;1198981 wrote:Because honestly if you're not discriminating against people because of your beliefs, trying to restrict science because of them, or otherwise harming people it doesn't hurt me one bit.

I daresay that it is interesting that you pick out science. I'm not so sure a study can be a victim, and if one wishes to learn, we currently live in an age where they may, regardless of the will of a large entity, such as a religious organization.

But then, I still contend that a distinction can be made between the worldview itself and actions of a large group of do, or claim to, espouse it.

I Wear Pants;1198981 wrote:"it does me no injury for my neighbor to say that there are 20 gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg". -Thomas Jefferson.

Always loved this quote, as its principle protects monotheism, polytheism, and no-theism/non-position-holders/whatever-we're-calling-it-in-this-thread.

I Wear Pants;1198981 wrote: So insomuch as a theist isn't harming others or directly pestering me ("you'll burn in hell", etc) I don't see why I'd be bothered by it. The problem is that it doesn't seem to work in the reverse. People, especially in this country tend to get very upset when they learn you're an atheist.

I admit that I seldom meet such persons. Perhaps where you live plays a part. You should come live here in Akron. Most of the people I know are atheists ... or at the very least non-believers (in any deity).

I Wear Pants;1198981 wrote: Either way, I hope that people who talk about these sort of things no matter if they're a theist or not continue to look into them. I hope theists take the time to give an open minded read to Hitchens and Dawkins and Sagan and Harris and others like them just like I hope atheists continue to study holy texts so that both can learn of places they may be wrong and reaffirm their beliefs (or lack of) in others.

You've just listed some of the authors I've read the most of in my short lifetime. Particularly Dawkins, who used to be my favorite (fantastic zoologist ... lousy philosopher, hence The God Delusion being such a let-down). I would still contend that the best defense of atheism is Dr. J. L. Mackey's The Miracle of Theism. Sagan was always fun for a quip here or there, but he was dry over anything long (in his defense, so is Moreland in Christianity and the Nature of Science). Can't say I'm a fan of Hitchens. Too much of his work screams of an emotional appeal. Harris, however, is VERY interesting, at least in The End of Faith. I found his view of morality to be a bit too presupposed in The Moral Landscape, though.

As for non-theistic authors, I'd also recommend Bertrand Russel, Albert Camus, and (if you can find an article by him) psychologist Philip Cushman.

I would suggest that any non-theist (easy term?) to read the likes of Moreland, Plantiga, and Craig. Craig is problematic in some areas. Plantiga has every bit as much wit and, at times, bite as Dawkins. Moreland is, in my completely honest opinion, probably the most cohesive of the lot, including those you've mentioned.

I Wear Pants;1199003 wrote:I would disagree with that but even then, a militant atheist argues with people a lot and can be dicks. You don't see atheists out there disowning their kids for being theists or other shit like that.

I've known at least a couple atheists essentially disowning their parents for it, though, and in circumstances where the parents were not abusive, neglectful, or forceful with their belief system. Granted, the ones I've seen do this have mostly been college students, but still.

I Wear Pants;1199003 wrote:Then you bring history into it, theists killed and tortured non-believers for the last 1000 or probably more years and still are in some places and perhaps you can understand some of the frustration.

More than 1000. Just an FYI.

However, I would hope that THAT is not still causing angst or frustration in our modern day.

I Wear Pants;1199016 wrote:Not just Christians. I'm frustrated by any idea or group that makes people torture and murder others because they don't believe the same.

Perhaps, then, the ideology which frustrates you is not the one that is commonplace today. After all, the one which IS commonplace today does not "make" people do those sorts of things. Moreover, those worldviews within the bounds of even mainstream Christianity that have opposed such violence have existed all along the way. They just weren't always in a position of control.

I Wear Pants;1199016 wrote:But especially so with religions because most of the major religions now even say themselves that it's a matter of faith (a point of pride in some religions it would seem).

Ugh ... don't get me started.

I Wear Pants;1199016 wrote:If it's a matter of faith and not something that is clear based on evidence and such why in the actual fuck would you torture or kill someone over it?

I can't disagree with your sentiment at all. If I recall, when the torture and killing was taking place, this was not a matter of dispute, so I don't think the "matter of faith" cop-out was ever really used.

Well done on the replies.

On the authors front, I really enjoy watching the debates with some of the names I've mentioned on youtube and such. Fascinating to me really both from the perspective of what they're saying and from how both sides are able to quickly make rebuttles using very specific references from a wide range of social events and literature/scripture. I appreciate that sort of academic thoroughness.

I guess perhaps the disowning thing is a bit more apparent to me since I'm young and grew up Catholic. Don't think I've ever had a serious problem with it because I generally don't discuss this topic with my family (though my sister did blow up at me the other week for even suggesting the idea that there isn't a deity). Also I have a fair amount of gay or lesbian friends so whenever I see religious attacks on them or their rights it upsets me as well. As does the idea of "Persecution of Christians" which I think I recall seeing an article of in the Catholic Exponent this past week (no idea if it was a current issue, it was in the bathroom). Not because Christians are immune from persecution, but because normally the things people cite as evidence of it really make them look dumb. You are not being persecuted because some people want to remove "under god" from the pledge. Especially since that was a very modern addition likely due to our disagreements with the Soviet Union/communists who were seen as atheists (though probably most weren't).

As for the causing angst or frustration in the modern day. Not really for me but there are still places that execute people for being homosexuals for example (and not just Muslim nations either since I believe there's a few Christian African nations that do that as well).

" I daresay that it is interesting that you pick out science. I'm not so sure a study can be a victim, and if one wishes to learn, we currently live in an age where they may, regardless of the will of a large entity, such as a religious organization.

But then, I still contend that a distinction can be made between the worldview itself and actions of a large group of do, or claim to, espouse it."

Things like birth control in African nations is what I was mostly talking about. There is no secular reason for not promoting the hell out of condom use, etc there (I'd argue even here but I don't think it's even debatable there). That's been done in the name of religion.

As for the distinction between the worldview and actions of followers or claimed followers; I think that can get into the tricky territory of claiming that everyone who does bad in the name of x isn't a true believer of x. If it isn't clear what I'm saying we see it with the Anders Behring Breivik shooting and how people reacted to that versus how people reacted to Nidal Malik Hasan killing people at Ft.Hood. At least it seemed among a lot of people I talked to I heard condemnations of the Islam religion for the latter but very rarely heard the same of Christianity because of Breivik.

Edit: Reps also for your multiquoting mastery.

Ironman92;1198970 wrote:Sorry sleeper....no heaven it appears.

I don't want to go to Heaven. Why would I ever chose a place where all the irrational people are alleged to go after death? I'd rather be in limbo or the dirt, wherever god isn't.

jmog;1198998 wrote:IWP in today's world the trend is that more and more atheists are "militant" when they find out someone is a Christian (see sleeper).

I agree that too many Christians act like idiots when they find out someone is an atheist, but that pendulum is starting to swing the other way.

I am a militant atheist in the sense I believe that religion ruins the lives of the people who subscribe to the cult. You may have the same feelings towards Scientology or Naziism; these are the same religions. Unproven shit with heavy consequences for the people who prefer logic and reason over emotion and fraud.

Sorry for caring about people though.

sleeper;1199163 wrote:Sorry for caring about people though.

One might say the same if he was trying ardently to persuade you do follow God's ideal life for you. Contrary to the belief of some, most people do not tell others to receive a spiritual feather in their caps.

Just as militant as you may be, with what you believe are good intentions, so will those opposite you be militant, often with equally good intentions.

sleeper;1199160 wrote:I don't want to go to Heaven. Why would I ever chose a place where all the irrational people are alleged to go after death? I'd rather be in limbo or the dirt, wherever god isn't.

I think there are at least one other alternative to consider, possibly more.

O-Trap;1199189 wrote:One might say the same if he was trying ardently to persuade you do follow God's ideal life for you. Contrary to the belief of some, most people do not tell others to receive a spiritual feather in their caps.

Just as militant as you may be, with what you believe are good intentions, so will those opposite you be militant, often with equally good intentions.

I don't try to persuade anyone. I tell them how logic works and that typically is enough to break most minds. Most of my theistic friends are now atheists. It's beautiful and required zero persuasion. Atheism isn't a religion, there are no rules, there are no rituals. It's based on sound fundamental reasoning and logic and nothing more and nothing less.

isadore;1199193 wrote:I think there are at least one other alternative to consider, possibly more.

Well thankfully there's absolutely no evidence that hell exists since I assume that's what you meant.