Campaign liar and lies ….

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mella

Senior Member

647 posts
Aug 18, 2012 1:50 AM
Both sides distort the truth and both sides should be held accountable.
Aug 18, 2012 1:50am
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Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Aug 18, 2012 2:57 AM
gut;1248155 wrote:As a % of GDP? That's right, Obama crushes Reagan there.
That's what happens when you inherit a deep recession. When Reagan was first elected, the US was the largest creditor nation. When he left office, the US became the largest debtor nation.

I'd be a little careful in exalting Reagan's "fiscal conservatism". It was after Reagan's tenure that I realized the Republicans are even worse than Democrats in fiscal irresponsibilty. And today...the ruse continues, with the R and R boys tooting their horns as the fiscally responsible group. LMAO.

Would love to see Romney get elected. Then watch the daily spinning, excuse making.
Aug 18, 2012 2:57am
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Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Aug 18, 2012 2:59 AM
mella;1249633 wrote:Both sides distort the truth and both sides should be held accountable.
Then vote for Ron Paul. Problem solved.
Aug 18, 2012 2:59am
M

mella

Senior Member

647 posts
Aug 18, 2012 8:55 AM
Footwedge;1249641 wrote:Then vote for Ron Paul. Problem solved.
I am really not that familiar with Ron Paul. I know who he is but I haven't really paid to much attention to his platform. I know that is a little ignorant, but I'll need to educate myself more about him.
Aug 18, 2012 8:55am
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gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Aug 18, 2012 2:56 PM
Footwedge;1249640 wrote: It was after Reagan's tenure that I realized the Republicans are even worse than Democrats in fiscal irresponsibilty.
Were you even born yet at the beginning of Reagan's term? I've always thought you were a recent graduate from like University of Dayton or something.
Aug 18, 2012 2:56pm
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Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Aug 18, 2012 5:27 PM
gut;1249809 wrote:Were you even born yet at the beginning of Reagan's term? I've always thought you were a recent graduate from like University of Dayton or something.
Old enough to be your father...and just like him....a helluva lot wiser than junior.
Aug 18, 2012 5:27pm
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BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Aug 18, 2012 5:40 PM
Speaking of campaign obfuscation, the fact that conservatives have been complaining about Obama's "cuts" to the largest socialist program in the United States (while at the same time arguing that we should reject Obama because he's a socialist) the last week has been truly a sight to be hold. This article sums it up pretty good.

http://www.tnr.com/blog/plank/106274/romney-ryan-obama-medicare-big-government-voucher

I particular liked this summary:
[INDENT]What is Medicare? It’s a massive, government-run system of socialized medicine. It’s wildly popular, very successful, and one of the pillars of modern Democratic governance. This government-run system of socialized medicine was created by Democrats against the opposition of conservative Republicans, and it’s Democrats who’ve fought to protect it for more than a half-century.[/INDENT][INDENT]Or to summarize, the left loves Medicare and always has; the right hates Medicare and always has. For liberals, the system is a celebrated ideal; for conservatives it’s an unconstitutional, big-government outrage in desperate need of privatization.[/INDENT][INDENT]In 2012, once we get past all of the talking points and attack ads, we’re left with this: Romney/Ryan wants you to believe they’re the liberals. No, seriously. Think about what the Republican presidential ticket, Fox News, Krauthammer, Donald Trump, and the Republican National Committee have been saying all week: those mean, rascally Democrats cut our beloved Medicare and voters should be outraged.[/INDENT][INDENT]In other words, the argument pushed by the most right-wing major-party ticket in a generation is that Barack Obama is a left-wing socialist who wants government-run socialized medicine and that Barack Obama is a far-right brute who wants to undermine government-run socialized medicine.[/INDENT]
It really is unbelievable.
Aug 18, 2012 5:40pm
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superman

Senior Member

3,582 posts
Aug 18, 2012 5:47 PM
It's not his cuts to medicare that conservatives are upset about. It's his hypocrisy. He is attacking Ryan and Romney over medicare cuts while being the biggest medicare cutter out there.
Aug 18, 2012 5:47pm
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gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Aug 18, 2012 6:05 PM
Footwedge;1249874 wrote:Old enough to be your father...and just like him....a helluva lot wiser than junior.
Well, I guess that explains why your knowledge, if we can call it that, of economics appears to begin and end with Adam Smith.
Aug 18, 2012 6:05pm
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BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Aug 18, 2012 6:06 PM
superman;1249888 wrote:It's not his cuts to medicare that conservatives are upset about. It's his hypocrisy. He is attacking Ryan and Romney over medicare cuts while being the biggest medicare cutter out there.
He's attacking Medicare because they want to change it from a program that provides a defined benefit to seniors. Period. The Affordable Care Act has not cut a dime from the benefit that seniors get but cuts payments to things like Hospitals in an attempt to make it more efficient. For instance, if Medicare were able to negotiate for lower prescription drug prices and it actually lowered the cost of medicare, this is the type of thing that Republicans would be referring to as a "cut to medicare."
Aug 18, 2012 6:06pm
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superman

Senior Member

3,582 posts
Aug 18, 2012 6:13 PM
Obamacare cuts over $500 billion to medicare over the next decade. Spin it however you want, he's a hypocrite for attacking them over medicare cuts.
Aug 18, 2012 6:13pm
believer's avatar

believer

Senior Member

8,153 posts
Aug 19, 2012 8:05 AM
superman;1249900 wrote:Obamacare cuts over $500 billion to medicare over the next decade. Spin it however you want, he's a hypocrite for attacking them over medicare cuts.
The Obama campaign is not only hypocritical for attacking the Romney/Ryan ticket on Medicare cuts, they have the audacity of calling out Romney on not releasing his tax returns when the Obama Administration is full of bonafide tax cheats not-to-mention Obama has never come clean on his academic records.

This nonsense will backfire on the Obama campaign.
Aug 19, 2012 8:05am
jhay78's avatar

jhay78

Senior Member

1,917 posts
Aug 19, 2012 9:03 PM
BoatShoes;1249882 wrote:Speaking of campaign obfuscation, the fact that conservatives have been complaining about Obama's "cuts" to the largest socialist program in the United States (while at the same time arguing that we should reject Obama because he's a socialist) the last week has been truly a sight to be hold. This article sums it up pretty good.

http://www.tnr.com/blog/plank/106274/romney-ryan-obama-medicare-big-government-voucher

I particular liked this summary:[INDENT]What is Medicare? It’s a massive, government-run system of socialized medicine. It’s wildly popular, very successful, and one of the pillars of modern Democratic governance. This government-run system of socialized medicine was created by Democrats against the opposition of conservative Republicans, and it’s Democrats who’ve fought to protect it for more than a half-century.
[/INDENT]
[INDENT]Or to summarize, the left loves Medicare and always has; the right hates Medicare and always has. For liberals, the system is a celebrated ideal; for conservatives it’s an unconstitutional, big-government outrage in desperate need of privatization.
[/INDENT]
[INDENT]In 2012, once we get past all of the talking points and attack ads, we’re left with this: Romney/Ryan wants you to believe they’re the liberals. No, seriously. Think about what the Republican presidential ticket, Fox News, Krauthammer, Donald Trump, and the Republican National Committee have been saying all week: those mean, rascally Democrats cut our beloved Medicare and voters should be outraged.
[/INDENT]
[INDENT]In other words, the argument pushed by the most right-wing major-party ticket in a generation is that Barack Obama is a left-wing socialist who wants government-run socialized medicine and that Barack Obama is a far-right brute who wants to undermine government-run socialized medicine.

It really is unbelievable.[/INDENT]
By "very successful" I take that to mean "about to go bankrupt in a little over a decade" and "containing tens of trillions of dollars in unfunded liabilities that we can never repay".

By "fought to protect it" I take that to mean "making one unrealistic promise after another to ensure that it remains unsustainable and goes bankrupt in a little over a decade".

Voters should not be outraged by the cuts to Medicare alone; it's the hypocrisy and lying.
Aug 19, 2012 9:03pm
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BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Aug 19, 2012 9:25 PM
superman;1249900 wrote:Obamacare cuts over $500 billion to medicare over the next decade. Spin it however you want, he's a hypocrite for attacking them over medicare cuts.
There is a difference between cuts to providers, etc. that make the program more efficient and passing more costs onto beneficiaries. That is not spin, it is critical thinking.
Aug 19, 2012 9:25pm
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BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Aug 19, 2012 9:30 PM
jhay78;1250385 wrote:By "very successful" I take that to mean "about to go bankrupt in a little over a decade" and "containing tens of trillions of dollars in unfunded liabilities that we can never repay".

By "fought to protect it" I take that to mean "making one unrealistic promise after another to ensure that it remains unsustainable and goes bankrupt in a little over a decade".

Voters should not be outraged by the cuts to Medicare alone; it's the hypocrisy and lying.
The whole "unfunded liabilities meme" is such demagoguery. Taken into account long run economic growth they are funded. And, as has been pointed out, if "medicare goes bankrupt" then we'll all be going bankrupt because medicare's problems are not divorced from the costs of our healthcare system as a whole and is more efficient than privately provided health insurance.
Aug 19, 2012 9:30pm
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BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Aug 19, 2012 9:32 PM
believer;1250075 wrote:The Obama campaign is not only hypocritical for attacking the Romney/Ryan ticket on Medicare cuts, they have the audacity of calling out Romney on not releasing his tax returns when the Obama Administration is full of bonafide tax cheats not-to-mention Obama has never come clean on his academic records.

This nonsense will backfire on the Obama campaign.
He is not a hypocrite for criticizing them for wanting to cut benefits for beneficiaries when he has cut payments to other players in healthcare delivery to make it more efficient.
Aug 19, 2012 9:32pm
ptown_trojans_1's avatar

ptown_trojans_1

Moderator

7,632 posts
Aug 19, 2012 10:47 PM
ccrunner609;1250441 wrote:i am sure that if you took the medicare program out of government and had a private company run it and make them run it on a specific budget it would be solvent. The government is not good at running things.
Hmmm, not sure if that is a total solution, as at the end of the day the Government can guarantee something the private sector cannot: It will be there in the end.
Companies can fold, stocks can drop, Government will be there,

Not saying portions of Medicare should not be private, they should, but total privatization is not the solution.

If W got his wish and portions of Medicare was privatized in 2006, the crash of 2008 would have been a lot worse.
Aug 19, 2012 10:47pm
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gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Aug 19, 2012 11:23 PM
ptown_trojans_1;1250447 wrote:Government can guarantee something the private sector cannot: It will be there in the end.
Not worth a whole lot after going bankrupt, defaulting on debts, and lopping a 0 or two off the currency.

Given the rate of debt/deficit spending, I wouldn't want to rely on the govt for my pension. Yeah, SS/Medicare will be gone or significantly cut, but that's just a fraction of what the govt employees get for a pension.
Aug 19, 2012 11:23pm
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BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Aug 20, 2012 2:25 AM
ccrunner609;1250441 wrote:i am sure that if you took the medicare program out of government and had a private company run it and make them run it on a specific budget it would be solvent. The government is not good at running things.
Well that's weird we've essentially tried that to a degree with Medicare Advantage and it has proven less efficient than regular Medicare. The government spends 12% more on care provided through Medicare Advantage than on comparable care provided by traditional medicare.
Aug 20, 2012 2:25am
ptown_trojans_1's avatar

ptown_trojans_1

Moderator

7,632 posts
Aug 20, 2012 6:14 PM
gut;1250473 wrote:Not worth a whole lot after going bankrupt, defaulting on debts, and lopping a 0 or two off the currency.

Given the rate of debt/deficit spending, I wouldn't want to rely on the govt for my pension. Yeah, SS/Medicare will be gone or significantly cut, but that's just a fraction of what the govt employees get for a pension.
If the Government goes down, I'm sure before it happens, the market will tank and all money in Medicare/ SS accounts will be wiped out in a crash.
The odds are greater that a market crashes than the Government crashing.
Aug 20, 2012 6:14pm
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gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Aug 20, 2012 6:30 PM
ptown_trojans_1;1250889 wrote:If the Government goes down, I'm sure before it happens, the market will tank and all money in Medicare/ SS accounts will be wiped out in a crash.
The odds are greater that a market crashes than the Government crashing.
Over the long-run, the market will always come out ahead.

Funny thing about inflation is that the markets typically do well...because prices rising, which is inflation, means profits are rising also.

I'd take my SS/Medicare money to do with as I please in a heartbeat. It's been fungible money for the govt - it's already "wiped out".
Aug 20, 2012 6:30pm