Manhattan Buckeye;1131590 wrote:You know, posting biased private funded PACs doesn't help your position. Australia? Australia healthcare is godawful. I've been to Australia, I know Australian doctors. They don't even have enough dentists to provide the routine checkups the poorest person in the U.S. takes for granted.

Where do you get your newsfeed?

Oh I know. You've been to India...and Australia...and everywhere else I suppose. And you've been to the doctor in those places...and the dentist there too. And all those people are crappy in comparison to our docs here...yada...yada...yada.

But I cite actual links....such as the World Health Organization (WHO) who do these analyses for a living...globally...for all to see...and they are all full of it. Got it.

whether you want to admit it or not...people in India are...

A. Much more educated than their counterparts in America...and
B. More qualified in the professions " " " ".

And C. That converts to better medicine being practiced. As Joe would say...."wham, with the right hand"

Manhattan Buckeye;1131643 wrote:"I've never seen a study that ranks the U.S. that low that doesn't have an equity component (i.e. a political statement, not a scientific one)."

Indeed, because it doesn't exist. Medical tourism exists, but it ain't Americans going to India, or Australia. Or the UK. It is people from socialist countries that go to Singapore, or Dubai for proper health care. No one cares that Scandinavian countries have the best mortality rate if they don't count aborted children if they have some sort of health issue.

The U.S., bar none, has the best health care available in the world. It isn't even close. The worst hospital in the crappiest city in the U.S. is likely better than the best hospital in any other world city.

SMH. And your wife is a drug rep? She must have OD'd on the corporate kool-aid.

If the studies you cite talk about equity (they do), and you claim they speak to quality of care, you are too damn stupid to know what the studies are saying, or as usual, you are a liar.

This is fun...some more ditties on the fallacy of American Healthcare exceptionalismMedical Tourism in the USA

A Growing Number of American Patients are Seeking Medical Treatment Abroad

The medical tourism industry has seen a major increase in the past decade.

Researchers have confirmed that:

• In 2006, about 150,000 American citizens traveled to Latin America and Asia for medical treatment.
• In 2007, the figure increased to approximately 300,000.
• By 2010, experts say that the number could increase to well over 1 million......

• The price of hip replacement surgery varies from $40,000 to $65,000 in the USA, whereas a similar procedure abroad costs about $8,000 to $18,000, including traveling expenses.
• India provides reasonable prices and high quality medical services to patients from the US. The prices in India usually vary from 0.25 to one 0.1 of the price of a similar medical procedure in the USA.
• Thailand - India's major competitor - is about 20% more expensive
• Receiving medical treatment in South America can cost between 50-100% more than it would in India.

High quality healthcare abroad

By doing the proper research, or consulting with a good agent, you ensure that you will receive high quality medical services with the best doctors in your destination country.

Medical treatment centers in many of these countries offer state-of-the-art facilities. This includes new or renovated private hospitals that use cutting edge technology and equipment. The doctors in these facilities are trained to American and European standards, providing service that is equal or greater to what hospitals in USA offer.
Benefit of Medical tourism for minor procedures

Patients who are undergoing minor surgery or procedures, can enjoy their recovery by staying in a relaxing vacation environment in beautiful surroundings. Patients accompanied by a family member or friend can enjoy some quality time, relaxing on the beach or going shopping. This can relieve much of the stress that builds up after a surgery. For patients receiving minor treatments, the benefits are even greater.

http://www.health-tourism.com/medical-tourism/usa-research/

You forgot this from the same site:

"However, the content on this website has not been reviewed or prepared by medical professionals and is not intended as a substitute for advise obtained from a licensed medical professional."

IOW, you found something on the internet that supports your position, you as usual don't give a damn whether it's true or not.

Again, you are a liar.

No doubt. And if Americans do seek any treatment abroad, it is generally because they can't get it here BECAUSE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS STANDING IN THE WAY in some fashion.

Wedge...somewhat anecdotal...but I've known a few people who have gone abroad for treatment and the results were not pretty....and in one case disasterous.



I am curious if any other business owners have had recent renewals of their company's health insurance....

Mine just came in....a whopping 38.5% increase for the same coverage. Obamakare? We really haven't had anything/anyone with any unusual claims. The policy is NOT s sweetheart plan and pretty basic. ....$1000/$2000deductible , 80/20 PPO plan, with midrange RX coverage and no riders.
I've never seen anything like this.

Just a quick question for those in the know. If Obama-care is so great why are there countless doctors who will be closing their practice if it's passed?

and why did Obama give out over 100 exemptions, including to unions? If the aim is to spread the cost around, don't exemptions defeat the purpose?

tk421;1132435 wrote:and why did Obama give out over 100 exemptions, including to unions? If the aim is to spread the cost around, don't exemptions defeat the purpose?

Rhetorical questions, right?

Late last nite/early this morning, I asked on this thread if any other business owners who provide health insurance for their employees had recently seen a huge increase in their policy renewal premiums....we had just got ours...a 38.5% increase for our rather basic policy. It was bad enough when premiums would rise 10-12% a year...
I checked into this a little today..
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/02/health_insurance_costs_to_rise_31_under_obamacare_says_plans_architect.html

queencitybuckeye;1131993 wrote:IOW, you found something on the internet that supports your position, you as usual don't give a damn whether it's true or not.

I showed...what? 5 links? including the World
Health Organization? Sorry that my links proved you wrong.

Again, you are a liar.

LOL. I guess LJ and PTown allow bannable offenses to certain priveleged posters. You must have donated a little to the mods. no?

HitsRus;1132353 wrote:Wedge...somewhat anecdotal...but I've known a few people who have gone abroad for treatment and the results were not pretty....and in one case disasterous.

Sorry Hits...but my multiple links are not showing anything anecdotal. Your example listed above is by definition....anecdotal.

One can voice their opinion that the US health system is fine the way it is. But nobody can argue that our system from a factual point of view is inherently and systematically flawed...and that the majority of other developed countries have better systems in place.

wedge...I was saying MY statement was anecdotal. Nonetheless...my personal experience.

HitsRus;1132631 wrote:Late last nite/early this morning, I asked on this thread if any other business owners who provide health insurance for their employees had recently seen a huge increase in their policy renewal premiums....we had just got ours...a 38.5% increase for our rather basic policy. It was bad enough when premiums would rise 10-12% a year...
I checked into this a little today..
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/02/health_insurance_costs_to_rise_31_under_obamacare_says_plans_architect.html

I have already posted this in the past but here is my experience in my 25 years of being an CEO in a mid size non profit with 70 employees. We ave averaged a 10% increase over the last 10 years. During this time we also had to raise our deductibles and reduce our benefits. We have gone to an HSA with a $10,000 out of pocket plan. We shop our group every year and this is the best we can do. This is not sustainable for us and the next plan is not to offer insurance coverage for our employees. I work with a broker out of Columbus who is very good. They see opportunities in the Affordable Healthcare Act and are preparing to go forward. If it proceeds I will opt out and pay the $2000 penalty and be very happy to do so, and my business will thrive.

HitsRus;1133053 wrote:wedge...I was saying MY statement was anecdotal. Nonetheless...my personal experience.

Undoubtedly true. This is the ugliness of liberalism. There are ALWAYS winners and losers, and liberalism thrives on catering to the loudest losers and their sympathizers, ignoring the new losers left in their wake.

Bigdogg, boatshoes, isadore, or anyone else that is pro Obama-care can you please answer my question that I have posted 2 times now? I will ask again.

If Obama-care is so great why are there countless doctors who will be closing their practice if it's passed?

bigdaddy2003;1133736 wrote: If Obama-care is so great why are there countless doctors who will be closing their practice if it's passed?

Because they're not any good. Duuuuuuhhhhhh! Haven't you been reading how Americans are getting ripped off for poor healthcare? :huh:

Bigdogg;1133718 wrote:If it proceeds I will opt out and pay the $2000 penalty and be very happy to do so, and my business will thrive.

THIS is exactly what the opponents of ObamaKare are telling everyone. The $2000 penalty doesn't come anywhere close to covering the employees that you will thrust into the "Healthcare Exchanges" to fend for themselves. Will you cover the difference to them in net pay for the difference in the $2000 penalty vs. what you were previously paying for? This also leads to even higher overall costs to the eventual group that will be forced to provide coverage to those you threw into the "Exchanges". Care to guess whom the eventual group is? The CBO knows.

You opting out also makes Obama a liar. He said if we like our healthcare, we can keep it. Clearly, with you tossing people off of your benefit program, they won't be able to keep it.

BGFalcons82;1133766 wrote: You opting out also makes Obama a liar. He said if we like our healthcare, we can keep it. Clearly, with you tossing people off of your benefit program, they won't be able to keep it.

The example given is precisely the rational financial decision most companies will make. However, in some cases it will be better for people to get an extra $$$ in comp and go purchase their own healthcare (presumably singles and probably couples without children). The big losers are going to be families with children, and especially hard-hit will be the middle class that doesn't already qualify for large handouts and other entitlements.

gut;1133803 wrote:The big losers are going to be families with children, and especially hard-hit will be the middle class that doesn't already qualify for large handouts and other entitlements.

If Obamanomics continues for another term, middle class families with children will easily qualify for gubmint entitlements. It's all by design.

bigdaddy2003;1133736 wrote:Bigdogg, boatshoes, isadore, or anyone else that is pro Obama-care can you please answer my question that I have posted 2 times now? I will ask again.

If Obama-care is so great why are there countless doctors who will be closing their practice if it's passed?

That's all good. Maybe they can make more as Wall Mart greeters, who knows? My guess is that the free market forces will kick in...and if the older docs want to retire early, good for them. There will be plenty of medical sudents to fill there place. As it stands today, there are more docs per capita in places like Europe, Canada and the like than here in the states.

I don't know if Obamacare is the answer....but neither do the pundits who choose sides and let it fly. My only point on this thread is that our costs are too high, and the quality we get under our present system has not led to a higher quality of life or length of life (morbidity/mortality).

we need to do better than what we've done.

It is without question, a known reality that government intrusion leads to a lot of unecessary bureaucratic red tape...and unneeded loss of time. Hopefully, the internet age can help streamline the process.

Footwedge;1134177 wrote: There will be plenty of medical sudents to fill there place. As it stands today, there are more docs per capita in places like Europe, Canada and the like than here in the states.

So paying doctors less is somehow going to incentivize more students to take on massive med school debt?

believer;1134125 wrote:If Obamanomics continues for another term, middle class families with children will easily qualify for gubmint entitlements. It's all by design.

Haha, I don't think anyone wants to shrink the middle class more. I just think Washington doesn't have any clue how to create better paying jobs, or an economic climate that fosters that...they only know how to take from those who actually create value.

Thet's the Dem solution to everything - more taxation eventhough higher taxes has never, throughout history, cured fiscal mismanagement. Even a half-wit businessman knows middle man rarely create value, yet the govt's redress is to create all types of middlemen to facilitate the redistribution of wealth. This is simply a losing approach.

Footwedge;1131955 wrote:SMH. And your wife is a drug rep? She must have OD'd on the corporate kool-aid.

No, she's the regional manager in charge of 46 countries, she's in charge of the sales reps. You don't know what you are talking about.

India is in her region. So is Australia. Only a grade A idiot who's never left the country and sits on the toilet reading left-wing magazines daily would even put those countries in the same breath as the U.S.

Once again, the U.S. has the best health care in the world. There's no question about it.