LJ has reported a post.

Reason:

Can we get F4F to refrain from pulling things like this? Absolutely uncalled for. Either move it to politics and unapprove if you are unsure, or just leave it alone.

Post: Tragedy and school prayer...
Forum: Serious Business
Assigned Moderators: Trueblue23

Posted by: Timber
Original Content:

Sad, sad time for our friends in the Chardon school shooting incident. My condolences to the families, students, and community that has been affected by a nutcase.

Fly4Fun edit: Separation of Church and State is a political topic. Feel free to discuss this tragedy here. But the politics must stay in the politics forum.

He had the original post about the shooting. Then he tried to sneak in a topic about the separation of church and state. In this case I decided to just leave the original post and get rid of the political aspect. If it's clearly just a political post I move it. I try to give deference to where the poster posted it as to speak to the general intent of what he wants to convey. If he flat out wanted to make a political post he should have done so in the politics forum. But because the post was borderline, I decided to edit out the politics and leave it where he wanted it.

I'm not sure what you think is so "absolutely uncalled for" and "pulling things like this." If you could explain your thoughts better maybe I could respond more specifically. But the above paragraph is my thought process on the situation.

There was no rule broken, his post should not have been edited.

Straight up JJ Huddle shit.

LJ;1102048 wrote:There was no rule broken, his post should not have been edited.

Straight up JJ Huddle shit.

No rule was broken, correct. That's why I didn't give an infraction of any sort. But he was posting about politics in the wrong forum. From my understanding we have a political forum to keep it out of the other forums (specifically out of Serious Business). It's not like a sport where it's no big deal if it's the wrong forum. But politics tend to bring out a lot of different emotions (it's why we had/have special rules for it.)

The separation of church and state, and student free speech are both constitutional issues and thus political. I edited out the political because of the reasoning in my first paragraph.

I'm not sure why your panties are in a bunch over this.

Fly4Fun;1102053 wrote:I'm not sure why your panties are in a bunch over this.

Because I think it is out of bounds for a mod to go in and edit someone's post for no rules being broken. Editing someone's post should ONLY be used when there is a egregious violation of a rule (posting porn, racism, etc). You PM the poster and go from there.

You are not here to be a topic editor. Hell, we even opened up the Poltics forum and basically I am only going after trolling anymore.

We do all agree it should have been moved to politics, yes?

ts1227;1102060 wrote:We do all agree it should have been moved to politics, yes?

moved but not edited if anything. I didn't see the unedited post.

LJ;1102058 wrote:Because I think it is out of bounds for a mod to go in and edit someone's post for no rules being broken. Editing someone's post should ONLY be used when there is a egregious violation of a rule (posting porn, racism, etc). You PM the poster and go from there.

You are not here to be a topic editor. Hell, we even opened up the Poltics forum and basically I am only going after trolling anymore.

I completely disagree. When it comes to topics started in serious business I look at them one of two ways if they are political. Either it is fully political and it should be tossed to the politics forum, which I do. Or it is not meant to be a political topic but has some of that flavor in there so I edit that part out. And with the latter I generally edit the political part out as I would imagine every poster knows of the politics forum and yet sometimes posters chose to post a topic with a little political leanings in there on the Serious Business forum. Now if it's just a tad political I sometimes leave it a lone and check on it to make sure it is no starting to become a political discussion in the thread.

Here, however, it was in the murky grey area and I used my discretion to make a choice. You know, as moderators do. Just made us moderators as I believe he thinks we are reasonable people. I generally don't do too much but every once in awhile I do. Moderators DO have the ability to edit posts and I view it is within our scope to do so. DO I edit posts often? No, maybe once every few months.

I think the tone of your initial post is incredibly out of line though. If you have a problem with what I do, feel free to report it and open up a discussion. But you were clearly being very hostile from the initial post. It's annoying enough to have people like Like_That/CoA, etc. constantly question moderating. But you're taking a page out of their book. If you have a difference in opinion among mods do it respectfully. No reason to be hostile.

Edit:

In addition, it is not a big deal in the long wrong with how I do it. If the poster does indeed want t convey what I edited out in the politics forum. He is more than free to do so. I even address as such by mentioning the politics forum in case the poster is unaware.

It's not like I change his language to make it look like he is saying something he is not. I am merely removing part of it and making clear the change that I made.

I mean I do editing in the HS forum, because in some cases it's just easier to replace a swear word myself and let the discussion continue as is, stuff like that doesn't hurt much.

ts1227;1102066 wrote:I mean I do editing in the HS forum, because in some cases it's just easier to replace a swear word myself and let the discussion continue as is, stuff like that doesn't hurt much.

I think editing a swear word in the HS forum is a little different as swearing is against the rules.

Fly4Fun;1102065 wrote:Here, however, it was in the murky grey area and I used my discretion to make a choice. You know, as moderators do. Just made us moderators as I believe he thinks we are reasonable people. I generally don't do too much but every once in awhile I do. Moderators DO have the ability to edit posts and I view it is within our scope to do so. DO I edit posts often? No, maybe once every few months.

Mods do have the ability to edit, that doesn't mean it is right to use that ability just because they feel like it. In this case it was out of line. Either move it, or leave it alone.[/quote]

I think the tone of your initial post is incredibly out of line though. If you have a problem with what I do, feel free to report it and open up a discussion. But you were clearly being very hostile from the initial post. It's annoying enough to have people like Like_That/CoA, etc. constantly question moderating. But you're taking a page out of their book. If you have a difference in opinion among mods do it respectfully. No reason to be hostile.

Personally, I think your moderation is pretty bad. You constantly step on that line of what is ok to do as a moderator and what is not. Granted, there are people that just plain deserve it, and there are times, like this one, where it is just plain out of line.

Edit:

In addition, it is not a big deal in the long wrong with how I do it. If the poster does indeed want t convey what I edited out in the politics forum. He is more than free to do so. I even address as such by mentioning the politics forum in case the poster is unaware.

It's not like I change his language to make it look like he is saying something he is not. I am merely removing part of it and making clear the change that I made.

But it is a big deal. You edited a post for no rules violation, you pissed off multiple posters and you chased another away.

justincredible;1102073 wrote:I think editing a swear word in the HS forum is a little different as swearing is against the rules.

This. Plus it doesn't hurt discussion, not does it change anything.

I honestly don't mind if political discussion creeps into serious business if it is related to a topic that isn't political.

justincredible;1102081 wrote:I honestly don't mind if political discussion creeps into serious business if it is related to a topic that isn't political.

The only issue before was that posters were posting fully poltical topics to circumvent the rules of the politics forum. Which was just basically their way of challenging the mods with "c'mon you fuckers!"

LJ;1102084 wrote:The only issue before was that posters were posting fully poltical topics to circumvent the rules of the politics forum. Which was just basically their way of challenging the mods with "c'mon you fuckers!"

Correct.

justincredible;1102081 wrote:I honestly don't mind if political discussion creeps into serious business if it is related to a topic that isn't political.

I disagree with you there. Easiest way to turn a topic to shit... Even more effective than CoA, like_that, and sleeper (maybe even combined).

Speaking of, those two twats are threadshitting pretty bad again, we may need to discuss what to do with them in a separate thread soon.

justincredible;1102073 wrote:I think editing a swear word in the HS forum is a little different as swearing is against the rules.

I agree that it is different. I don't think that is in contention here.

LJ;1102076 wrote:Mods do have the ability to edit, that doesn't mean it is right to use that ability just because they feel like it. In this case it was out of line. Either move it, or leave it alone.

Personally, I think your moderation is pretty bad. You constantly step on that line of what is ok to do as a moderator and what is not. Granted, there are people that just plain deserve it, and there are times, like this one, where it is just plain out of line.


But it is a big deal. You edited a post for no rules violation, you pissed off multiple posters and you chased another away.[/QUOTE]

Personally, I believe your entire posting style is pretty bad. I don't think mods should have to be above everything all the time. But i think you get into it way too often with posters and thus set the bar low.

What other controversial things do I do besides having to deal with CoA and Like_That and Sleeper because no other mod is going to. For the most part we had a complete lack of moderating in certain aspects, and I felt like I was the only one trying to do anything. And then I just stopped trying because all I got was shit for it. Then things got REALLY bad and Justin had to step in and do a complete overhaul on the personal attacks and such.

And it's not a big deal. I told people that they could feel free to discuss the topic on that thread (instead of just getting rid of the entire thread), and I pointed out it can be discussed in politics (which it can be). If that is the end of the fucking world than that's just too bad.

If from now on I should just move any thread that has a political flavor to it over to the politics forum then sure, I'm fine with that. But I was trying to give deference to where the poster wanted the thread.

I remember in a previous instance in which there was a semi-political thread and I moved it over to that forum and the poster got pissed because he wanted it to be more about the non-political side.

You can't win every battle. Not everyone is going to be happy.

Am I immune from mistakes? No. Is hindsight 20/20? Yes. At the time do I think I was making a mistake? No. Going back and reading the OP's follow up post, I probably made the wrong choice and should have just moved it.

It's not like I deleted paragraphs of work. I got ride of 2 sentences.

justincredible;1102081 wrote:I honestly don't mind if political discussion creeps into serious business if it is related to a topic that isn't political.

If that's what you say then fine. But I didn't think that was why we had the politics forum with the special rules. I'm with ts that I think it can absolutely turn a topic to shit. Remember how well that worked out on JJ with allowing politics in ST/I? It didn't.

But from now on I won't do that and will let it slide.

My main complaint is that LJ could be a little more tactful in how he goes about things. I realize that you, LJ, never liked me even from back on JJ. But seriously, at least be respectful. It makes discussions easier if people are respectful. And yes, I realize my comment about "panties in a bunch" goes against what I just said, but at that point you had already irked me.

Fly4Fun;1102092 wrote:IPersonally, I believe your entire posting style is pretty bad. I don't think mods should have to be above everything all the time. But i think you get into it way too often with posters and thus set the bar low.

Personally, I've never liked you to begin with.

Fly4Fun;1102094 wrote:My main complaint is that LJ could be a little more tactful in how he goes about things.

Uh.... I reported the thread, and I only said something about it in the mod forum. if I hurt your feelings, too bad.

LJ;1102098 wrote:Personally, I've never liked you to begin with.

Obviously, as noted above.

LJ;1102099 wrote:Uh.... I reported the thread, and I only said something about it in the mod forum. if I hurt your feelings, too bad.

Sigh... My feelings aren't hurt. I realize you reported it, but it's the way you go about things. Discussions are much easier and more productive if you can keep animosity and personal attacks out of it. That's basic communication skills right there. That's the reason CoA, Like_That, and Sleeper were so disruptive (I know, I'm using an extreme example, but the are a perfect example). They made everything hostile and personal. My point being is that there is no reason to be hostile in the moderator among ourselves. If you want to criticize, fine. But do it in a productive manner. You don't get badass points in the mod forum by being hostile.

Fly4Fun;1102105 wrote:Sigh... My feelings aren't hurt. I realize you reported it, but it's the way you go about things. Discussions are much easier and more productive if you can keep animosity and personal attacks out of it. That's basic communication skills right there. That's the reason CoA, Like_That, and Sleeper were so disruptive (I know, I'm using an extreme example, but the are a perfect example). They made everything hostile and personal. My point being is that there is no reason to be hostile in the moderator among ourselves. If you want to criticize, fine. But do it in a productive manner. You don't get badass points in the mod forum by being hostile.

While I agree with LJ's original sentiment (i.e. that it shouldn't have been edited), I do agree with this.

Fly4Fun;1102105 wrote:Obviously, as noted above.



Sigh... My feelings aren't hurt. I realize you reported it, but it's the way you go about things. Discussions are much easier and more productive if you can keep animosity and personal attacks out of it. That's basic communication skills right there. That's the reason CoA, Like_That, and Sleeper were so disruptive (I know, I'm using an extreme example, but the are a perfect example). They made everything hostile and personal. My point being is that there is no reason to be hostile in the moderator among ourselves. If you want to criticize, fine. But do it in a productive manner. You don't get badass points in the mod forum by being hostile.

I believe I communicated my point quite well in the report, and I am not looking for "bad ass points" anywhere. I just felt what you did was very out of line. Not hacking people's PM's out of line, but definitely in the way that we should respect posters threads. We are here to enforce the rules, not to stick our noses into someone's post because we "think" they "might want" it to be a certain way. Not the place of a moderator, and very out of line.

BTW, I didn't even take it personal, I am not the one who asked why someone's panties were in a bunch.

LJ;1102112 wrote:I believe I communicated my point quite well in the report, and I am not looking for "bad ass points" anywhere. I just felt what you did was very out of line. Not hacking people's PM's out of line, but definitely in the way that we should respect posters threads. We are here to enforce the rules, not to stick our noses into someone's post because we "think" they "might want" it to be a certain way. Not the place of a moderator, and very out of line.

BTW, I didn't even take it personal, I am not the one who asked why someone's panties were in a bunch.

You made your point. But you did so in a way that was hostile. Go back and look at your first two posts before. Both are aggressive hostile posts. I tried to respond initially with a thought out reasonable post explaining why I did what I did. Then you responded with the same general tone in the second post. Because of our history (an obvious dislike that you have towards me that has manifested itself in many posts throughout the years) it is clear how you were approaching this. And at that point I responded with another post and the aforementioned comment, which I already admitted as such was out of line as well. But that is my point. Discussions start to devolve when people are overly aggressive/hostile. I admit my line about panties in a bunch is wrong and goes against what I was saying. But because of our history and the initial two posts I was goaded into posting back in a similar manner.

It made a simple discussion and then in-put from other mods (including Justin) from being simple.

My point overall is I get that you don't like me. I have known it for years. I'm pretty sure other people can gather as much from posts made by you if they bothered to pay attention. But in essence we are co-workers, even though this isn't a real job. Life is easier if we just keep it as civil as possible.

Trust me, you would have known if I was trying to be an absolute ass about it.