FatHobbit;871311 wrote:What about the 3 QB's from USC, 2 from Florida, 2 from Michigan, 2 from Texas, 1 from Oklahoma and 1 from Penn State? (Kerry Collins certainly did not grind at Penn State.)

I think Scarlet Buckeye makes a good point...I didn't read the first page prior to posting. Sorry.

Look at the QB's from USC:

1. Palmer; wasn't very good in his first 3 years at SC...had to fight through adversity...that would be "grind"; and he made two pro bowls
2. Leinart: Started from Day 1 and played in a pro-style offense but had so much talent around him that guys created a lot of separation even on west-coast offense style pass plays. That kind of space doesn't happen in west coast style plays in the NFL. You have to have guts and accuracy to make the throws. Leinart did the opposite of "grind." Sitting the bench
3. Cassel: Sat behind Leinart, John David Booty, Sanchez. Had to "Grind" Made the pro bowl

Michigan
1. Tom Brady; Had the whole town wanting Drew Henson to play...drafted in sixth round...thought about transferring early in career...."grind"; all time great.
2. Chad Henne: 5-star recruit, started as a freshman passing to Braylon, Jason Avant and Steve Breaston as part of top tier team in the big ten. Did not have to grind. Hated by Miami fans.


If you're a 5 star talent going into college it's likely you'll land in the NFL...but the hypothesis that the missing element between that and stardom is "grind" is a relatively common theme it appears. However, I wouldn't go as far to say that it's relevant in all cases.

BoatShoes;871343 wrote:If you're a 5 star talent going into college it's likely you'll land in the NFL...but the hypothesis that the missing element between that and stardom is "grind" is a relatively common theme it appears. However, I wouldn't go as far to say that it's relevant in all cases.

For every star that had to "grind", there must be thousands (if not more) of others who also had to grind and didn't make it. IMHO it's not statistically significant.

I know this is about producing QB's at OSU, but there has been mention of schools being a run team or a speed team so I went deeper into the stats from the NFL last season.

Rushing Yards of 500+
Hillis Arkansas
McFadden Arkansas
Johnson East Carolina
Mendenhall Illinois
Bradshaw Marshall
Turner No.Ill.
Peterson Oklahoma
Green-Ellis Ole Miss
Blount Oregon
Jackson Oregon State
McCoy Pitt
Rice Rutgers
Foster Tennessee
Charles Texas
Benson Texas
Forte Tulane
Jones-Drew UCLA


70+ receptions
C.Johnson Gtech
Wayne Miami
Moss Miami
Johnson Miami
Lloyd Illinois
Maclin Missouri
Pettigrew Oklahoma State
Welker Texas Tech
Amendola Texas Tech
Fitzgerald Pitt
McCoy Pitt
Nicks Syracuse
White UAB
Marshall UCF
Jennings WMU
Owens Chattanooga
Colston Hofstra
Gonzalez Cal
Harvin Florida
S.Johnson Kentucky
Bowe LSU
Witten Tennessee
Bess Hawaii
Cooley Utah State

3k passing yards(a lot more exclusive club than 500+ yards)
Matt Ryan - Boston College
Matt Schaub - Virginia
Michael Vick - Virg Tech
Matt Hasselbeck - BC
Philip Rivers - NC State
Chad Henne - Michigan
Drew Breese - Purdue
Kyle Orton - Purdue
Tom Brady - Michigan
Josh Freeman - Kansas State
Sam Bradford - Oklahoma
Donovan McNabb - Syracuse
Ben Roethlisberger - Miami, OH
Joe Flacco - Delaware
Ryan Fitzpatrick - Harvard
Aaron Rodgers - California
Carson Palmer - USC
Mark Sanchez - USC
Matt Cassel - USC
Eli Manning - Mississippi
Jay Cutler - Vandy
Peyton Manning - Tennessee

Rushing Yards
SEC 4
B12 3
P10 3
CUSA 3
Beast 2
B10 1
MAC 1

Receptions
ACC-4
B12-4
SEC-4
Beast-3
CUSA-2
Other-2
WAC-2
B10-1
MAC-1
P10-1

Passing Yards
ACC 5
B10 4
PAC 4
SEC 3
B12 2
OTHER 2
MAC-1

TOTAL Offensive players....
SEC 11
ACC 9
B12 9
P10 8
B10 6
B-EAST 5
CUSA 5
OTHER 4
MAC 3
WAC 2

Tennessee is the only school with a player on all three lists-Foster, Witten, P.Manning.

FatHobbit;871372 wrote:For every star that had to "grind", there must be thousands (if not more) of others who also had to grind and didn't make it. IMHO it's not statistically significant.

I certainly agree...if you don't have star level talent...this "grinding" will be fruitless in its approach to NFL stardom. The argument S-B is making, if I'm correct is 1. You need to have the talent and 2. If you have NFL top-level talent, what separates you from being merely in the NFL and NFL star there needs to be a significant amount of adversity to overcome and thus tOSU's QB's never face significant adversity because in recent history they've been dominant in the majority of their games talent-wise. I may be wrong but I think that's what he's suggesting.

Agree with the points before, particularly about OSU being a primarily running team. Not only that, but don't forget that OSU traditionally has a QB who is more noted for their mobility than their arm (especially lately). In the last 10 years OSU has had more mobile QB's (Bellisari, Krenzel, Smith, Pryor, now Miller) than "pocket passers" (Bauserman, Zwick).

Krenzel was a smart dude but I would hardly classify him as mobile. Oh and Bellisari? Please don't make me remember that guy.

Tomczak was the most active NFL guy, but much like his collegiate career, threw picks at the most inopportune times.

FatHobbit;871311 wrote:What about the 3 QB's from USC, 2 from Florida, 2 from Michigan, 2 from Texas, 1 from Oklahoma and 1 from Penn State? (Kerry Collins certainly did not grind at Penn State.)

As a previous poster noted,

Heretic;870320 wrote:Carson did have to grind to a degree, though. Coming into his senior season, he was looked at as pretty overrated because his performance never lived up to the hype. Then he had a great senior season and all that talk went away. It might have been more because of personal stigma than where he was rated or how good his team was, but he did have to work hard to improve during college.

Tom Brady was the definition of "grind." He "grinded" to compete against All-Star Drew henson, he grinded to work his way into the starting lineup in New England. His whole career has been a grind. If you watched the ESPN Year of the QB special on him, you would know that he never had the physical talent/gift. Came in as a skrawny kid. Had to "grind" to get everything he's received. he was never handed things like JaMarcus Russell was.

And Kerry Collins... are we REALLY considering him a top notch NFL QB?

Scarlet_Buckeye;872225 wrote:And Kerry Collins... are we REALLY considering him a top notch NFL QB?

I'll give you that he's probably not top notch. Certainly not on the level of Brady or Manning. But the original question was why has OSU only produced 1 (really 2, as enigmax pointed out) QB with 20+ starts. I was only looking at QB's that were decent contributors for their team last year. Kerry Collins has played in 195 games and thrown for 40k+ yards and 206 touchdowns. He's certainly been a decent NFL QB.

If we want to talk about top notch QB's, we would have to define that first.

Scarlet_Buckeye;872225 wrote: And Kerry Collins... are we REALLY considering him a top notch NFL QB?

He's got to be some kind of statement about being a QB in the NFL. Dude has had one season (and another where he played 4 games) in which he completed at least 60% of his passes. He threw more TDs than INTs in seven different seasons and fumbled 22 times in a single season. Hasn't really ever done anything spectacular....or even "well". But he's working on what, 17, 18 years and started a full season within the last three (not counting the upcoming season)?

Can it be looked at a couple of ways - the NFL is a crapshoot and sometimes careers are inexplicable (as to why they do or don't work out or continue) or, if Kerry Collins can keep a job, why can't some of the other guys who've come along that were really more talented?

enigmaax;872233 wrote:Can it be looked at a couple of ways - the NFL is a crapshoot and sometimes careers are inexplicable (as to why they do or don't work out or continue)

I think a lot of times it depends on the situation they come into and the team that drafts them. Some people get to sit and learn, or have a great offensive line. Other people get thrown right into the fire on a bad team or get drafted by the Bengals.

Automatik;871170 wrote:What QBs from the Big 10 have been "overwhelmed"?

Also, there are plenty of defensive players in the NFL from the Big 10.

Once gain....talking out of your ass.

heres a few big ten qb standouts that just kicked ass in the nfl
Craig Krenzel
Brett Basanez
Drew Stanton
Juice Williams
Daryll Clark
Jeff Smoker
Jack Trudeau
Drew Tate
John Stocco
John Navarre
Joe Germaine
Darrell Bevell
Curtis Painter
Chad Henne
Bobby Hoying
Kurt Kittner
Chuck Long

KnightRyder;872460 wrote:Chuck Long

Welcome to 1985

It's been a good read so far.

Something I'd like to add, that's sort of been alluded to...there are 3,500-something 4-year institutions (I know all don't have football, but A LOT seem to have it) that all are getting talented student-athletes to play for them. There are a mere 32 teams in the NFL. Not everyone is going to make it. Especially when you have those Peyton Manning's, Brett Favre's, Kerry Collins', and the like who have careers spanning for 10+ years. Sure, there are some schools that have been somewhat successful in producing quarterbacks/talent recently...but that's not ALWAYS the case.

It's survival of the fittest. Some will make it, some won't. There's a lot of people who want to make it to the "big time." There's just too much talent out there to expect a single college football program to be completely successful in the NFL in one, two, or three-plus positions.

Here's a better question, why hasn't the SEC won a legitimate championship since 1976? Just got this on my Twitter, expect breaking news soon.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6888702

KnightRyder;872460 wrote:heres a few big ten qb standouts that just kicked ass in the nfl
Craig Krenzel
Brett Basanez
Drew Stanton
Juice Williams
Daryll Clark
Jeff Smoker
Jack Trudeau
Drew Tate
John Stocco
John Navarre
Joe Germaine
Darrell Bevell
Curtis Painter
Chad Henne
Bobby Hoying
Kurt Kittner
Chuck Long

LOL @ that list. One could compile a similar list of above average college Qbs for every conference.

dat dude;872869 wrote:LOL @ that list. One could compile a similar list of above average college Qbs for every conference.

those qbs werent above average , they were stars in the big ten

Tobias Fünke;869947 wrote:Because it's a) a crapshoot to have a career in the NFL as a quarterback, and b) it's a different game. Accuracy is not a prerequisite in the college game.

Great answer. There are not many starting QB spots to be had in the NFL from year to year. 3 or 4 teams need a QB every year and to have a top 3 or 4 QB in the country is tough, let alone have them actually succeed.

KnightRyder;872460 wrote:heres a few big ten qb standouts that just kicked ass in the nfl
Craig Krenzel
Brett Basanez
Drew Stanton
Juice Williams
Daryll Clark
Jeff Smoker
Jack Trudeau
Drew Tate
John Stocco
John Navarre
Joe Germaine
Darrell Bevell
Curtis Painter
Chad Henne
Bobby Hoying
Kurt Kittner
Chuck Long

That doesn't answer my question.

What QBs from the Big 10 were "overwhelmed" by NFL defenses?

Also, what conference would you say produces the best QBS, you know...not getting "overwhelmed."

The MAC?

What is really interesting is how successful Ohio State has been at producing good NFL receivers, but not good at producing QB's. You would think the two would go together.

Polar Bear 73;873051 wrote:What is really interesting is how successful Ohio State has been at producing good NFL receivers, but not good at producing QB's. You would think the two would go together.

You do make a very interesting point.

KnightRyder;873015 wrote:those qbs werent above average , they were stars in the big ten

I initially started writing a response, but soon realized your posting history. Just not worth it.

This is the 57th time this question has been posed on sites like this.

VERY simple answer to VERY simple question. A good/great NFL QB is not a prerequisite for winning a BCS Championship. Craig Krenzel.

There is a VERY VERY VERY long list of good/great NFL QBs who never sniffed an NCAA Championship or BCS Championship.

OR answer this relevant to the subject question. Why is it that NFL franchises have been such a failure at drafting successful NFL QBs in the 1st round?

Big Gain;873116 wrote:
There is a VERY VERY VERY long list of good/great NFL QBs who never sniffed an NCAA Championship or BCS Championship.

I have one hypothesis for this.

When making the determination of where to play college football, a lot of great high school quarterbacks look at a situation where they can play very early on in their careers. For that reason, a lot of great quarterbacks end up at schools other than ones with established quarterbacks or quarterbacks in line (which is most big time programs), which is why you see so many good quarterbacks come from programs that are not national powerhouses (examples off the top of my head: Drew Brees at Purdue, Peyton Manning at Tennessee, Matt Ryan Boston College, Matt Schaub Virginia, Philip Rivers NC State, Josh Freeman Kansas State).

If you take a look, those quarterbacks all come from power conferences, where they play NFL defensive talent, but don't have NFL talent offensively around them so they don't sniff at national championships.

Again, that is just one possibility, albeit what I consider to be a good one.

lhslep134;873129 wrote:I have one hypothesis for this.

When making the determination of where to play college football, a lot of great high school quarterbacks look at a situation where they can play very early on in their careers. For that reason, a lot of great quarterbacks end up at schools other than ones with established quarterbacks or quarterbacks in line (which is most big time programs), which is why you see so many good quarterbacks come from programs that are not national powerhouses (examples off the top of my head: Drew Brees at Purdue, Peyton Manning at Tennessee, Matt Ryan Boston College, Matt Schaub Virginia, Philip Rivers NC State, Josh Freeman Kansas State).

If you take a look, those quarterbacks all come from power conferences, where they play NFL defensive talent, but don't have NFL talent offensively around them so they don't sniff at national championships.

Again, that is just one possibility, albeit what I consider to be a good one.

I'm sure Manning was considered a great QB while he was being recruited. Were the rest of them?

FatHobbit;873340 wrote:I'm sure Manning was considered a great QB while he was being recruited. Were the rest of them?

I tried looking that up, rivals goes back until 2002. Most of the top ranked QBs are going to the elite programs. Would be interested to see where Brees was ranked coming out of high school.