Mr. Russell
Posts: 422
Jul 30, 2011 10:56pm
I can't believe we couldn't get a BIG stick for White and Pomeranz...... There is no way Ubaldo is the best player we could have gotten for those two in a package deal....
ESPN 850 is reporting Orlando Cabrera is going to be acquired by the Giants before the deadline also.
ESPN 850 is reporting Orlando Cabrera is going to be acquired by the Giants before the deadline also.
Laley23
Posts: 29,506
Jul 30, 2011 10:57pm
Mr. Russell;847101 wrote:I can't believe we couldn't get a BIG stick for White and Pomeranz...... There is no way Ubaldo is the best player we could have gotten for those two in a package deal....
ESPN 850 is reporting Orlando Cabrera is going to be acquired by the Giants before the deadline also.
That is the biggest hang-up for me. We couldnt get Pence (or shit, even MORE than Pence for them)??
B
BR1986FB
Posts: 24,104
Jul 30, 2011 10:59pm
Laley23;847102 wrote:That is the biggest hang-up for me. We couldnt get Pence (or shit, even MORE than Pence for them)??
Tribe's front office blows goats...doesn't get enough when we give up our top players and gives up too much for less than top players.
jordo212000
Posts: 10,664
Jul 30, 2011 11:00pm
Anybody know what they got for O-Cab?
grodt
Posts: 1,588
Jul 30, 2011 11:02pm
OFer Thomas Neal. He's in AAA right now
jordo212000
Posts: 10,664
Jul 30, 2011 11:06pm
Neal was hitting .295 with 2 HRs and 25 RBI. Has 220 ABs so far this season. He's also 23 years oldgrodt;847110 wrote:OFer Thomas Neal. He's in AAA right now
Azubuike24
Posts: 15,933
Jul 30, 2011 11:07pm
Seems like a filler. No power or speed really...
grodt
Posts: 1,588
Jul 30, 2011 11:11pm
From fangraphs before the season started, about Neal:
Notes: Neal, 23, had a breakout season in 2009 by posting a .444 wOBA but failed to see that success carry over into 2010 at double-A. He didn’t have a bad season, but his triple-slash line was just OK at .291/.349/.440 in 525 at-bats. His ISO rate dropped from .242 in ’09 to .149 in ’10. Neal has shown a significant improvement in his strikeout rate since ’08 as it dropped from 24.1 to 20.6 to 17.9 K%. He stole 11 bases but doesn’t have good speed; he’s a relatively smart base runner, though. Neal hits with a quiet, well-balanced stance. He stands up straight and has a quick bat and strong wrists. Defensively, Neal doesn’t have great range and his arm strength is just OK. He’s pretty much limited to left field.
Notes: Neal, 23, had a breakout season in 2009 by posting a .444 wOBA but failed to see that success carry over into 2010 at double-A. He didn’t have a bad season, but his triple-slash line was just OK at .291/.349/.440 in 525 at-bats. His ISO rate dropped from .242 in ’09 to .149 in ’10. Neal has shown a significant improvement in his strikeout rate since ’08 as it dropped from 24.1 to 20.6 to 17.9 K%. He stole 11 bases but doesn’t have good speed; he’s a relatively smart base runner, though. Neal hits with a quiet, well-balanced stance. He stands up straight and has a quick bat and strong wrists. Defensively, Neal doesn’t have great range and his arm strength is just OK. He’s pretty much limited to left field.
jordo212000
Posts: 10,664
Jul 30, 2011 11:14pm
Azubuike24;847124 wrote:Seems like a filler. No power or speed really...
Yup. Sounds like your typical AAAA player. A guy you bring up when you have an injury and then quickly send down once he is no longer needed.
Cabrera's cadaver wasn't going to get you much though. Not a bad deal for them
IggyPride00
Posts: 6,482
Jul 30, 2011 11:15pm
This makes me nervous, and I actually think there might be some merit to the comment. His drop in velocity is usually the first sign of danger, and he is in that zone age/career wise with this being only his 4th full season as a starter where that is a legit concern. Seems to happen to so many young pitchers anymore that it is often a matter of time.Rockies got a steal in the ubaldo deal....good prospects for a guy that will need Tommy John in a year...his arm is jacked
Considering we literally mortgaged the franchise for the guy (trading the 2009 & 2010 first round picks) it would be an unmitigated disaster if he ends up having any arm issues.
Guys his age though don't usually suffer velocity drops without some sort of underlying medical issue though, so there is reason to be concerned.
riders1
Posts: 2,275
Jul 30, 2011 11:19pm
I could see trading either Pomeranz or White but not both in the same deal. Still need a hitter and it sound like it will be Ludwick, good or bad?
hoops23
Posts: 15,696
Jul 31, 2011 1:10am
The more I think about the trade, the more I'm liking it.
Sure, I'm pissed we gave up Alex White AND Drew Pomeranz, however, you don't honestly know what you're getting with Pom and I know what Ubaldo is.
I was reminded of Jaret Wright. He was very hyped up as an up and coming ace with great heat and some nice secondary pitches. I was also reminded how we refused to trade him for Pedro Martinez at one point.
Prospects are prospects. Jeremy Guthrie, Jeremy Sowers, Adam Miller, etc... All guys who were taken high and were hyped up in the minors.
We have Ubaldo for at least 2 more years, which still gives us time to upgrade the team even more in that stretch. It wasn't a move just for this year, but also for the future.
The only thing that sucks is since he was traded, his team option is waived in 2014.
Also, Jiminez's drop in velocity was contributed to a slash on his thumb on his throwing hand. Supposedly his velocity has been coming back up. Just heard it on MLB radio about 20 minutes ago.
Sure, I'm pissed we gave up Alex White AND Drew Pomeranz, however, you don't honestly know what you're getting with Pom and I know what Ubaldo is.
I was reminded of Jaret Wright. He was very hyped up as an up and coming ace with great heat and some nice secondary pitches. I was also reminded how we refused to trade him for Pedro Martinez at one point.
Prospects are prospects. Jeremy Guthrie, Jeremy Sowers, Adam Miller, etc... All guys who were taken high and were hyped up in the minors.
We have Ubaldo for at least 2 more years, which still gives us time to upgrade the team even more in that stretch. It wasn't a move just for this year, but also for the future.
The only thing that sucks is since he was traded, his team option is waived in 2014.
Also, Jiminez's drop in velocity was contributed to a slash on his thumb on his throwing hand. Supposedly his velocity has been coming back up. Just heard it on MLB radio about 20 minutes ago.
hoops23
Posts: 15,696
Jul 31, 2011 1:15am
Oh, and A few things on Ubaldo Jiminez:
Since June 1st, he is 6-4 with a 3.10 ERA. His ERA away from Coors field is 2.83. Righties and lefties hit about the same off him.
Since June 1st, he is 6-4 with a 3.10 ERA. His ERA away from Coors field is 2.83. Righties and lefties hit about the same off him.
SportsAndLady
Posts: 35,632
Jul 31, 2011 1:35am
Can't understand how tribe fans can be mad at.this trade? Hoops hit the nail on the head.
Not to mention you can't say "our front office just sits back and doesn't do shit to help the team" like a lot of you Were saying...then when they go get one of the best pitchers in baseball you say you gave up too much...prospects are prospects..they Come and go..a good amount of them amount to nothing...in 2 years you'll have another pom and white...that's how it works.
Be happy your team made a move...as a reds fan, I was hoping they'd trade for ubaldo
Not to mention you can't say "our front office just sits back and doesn't do shit to help the team" like a lot of you Were saying...then when they go get one of the best pitchers in baseball you say you gave up too much...prospects are prospects..they Come and go..a good amount of them amount to nothing...in 2 years you'll have another pom and white...that's how it works.
Be happy your team made a move...as a reds fan, I was hoping they'd trade for ubaldo
TBone14
Posts: 6,383
Jul 31, 2011 1:46am
My post from the other thread:
TBone14;847163 wrote:I love the guys coming out of the woodwork tonight. There is a group of about 7-8 of us on here every night talking Tribe. They make a move and guys post I've never heard of.
As for the trade. It is impossible to judge it right now. There are no 'slam dunk' prospects. White has a few decent starts. You know who else came up and was alright for a little bit? Guys like Aaron Laffey, that bitch ass lefty (too drunk to think of his name), David Huff. Adam Miller was the 'can't miss prospect'. What has he done?
We are getting a stud pitcher who won't be pitching in Denver anymore for atleast 2 more seasons. We are giving up the unknown. This trade cannot be judged today. If White or Pomeranz turn out to be studs and we don't make the playoffs in the next 3 years, we lose. If Ubaldo gives us 2 plus great seasons and a playoff appearance and a run at a pennant, I don't care what those guys turn out to be.
Might as well live for the now because that is what the FO is doing. If this doesn't motivate the guys in the clubhouse nothing will. Let's go win this damn division and I'll take Ubaldo, Masterson and Tomlin vs any 3 and that includes Lester, Beckett and Lackey. Make the playoffs and who the fuck knows. This division is for the taking.
From the Hills
Posts: 190
Jul 31, 2011 8:52am
TBone14;847225 wrote:My post from the other thread:
Didn't know you 7 or 8 guys had a monopoly on the site. Anyhow don't like the trade. Stupid to give up both of your top pitching prospects and we still have not added any offense. Better add a power bat today because pitching has not been the problem.
wes_mantooth
Posts: 17,977
Jul 31, 2011 9:14am
I am still ok with this trade, but it is still useless if they can't add a bat today.
Ubaldo does fit in this organizations plans...he is very salary friendly for the next few years.
Ubaldo does fit in this organizations plans...he is very salary friendly for the next few years.
Laley23
Posts: 29,506
Jul 31, 2011 10:03am
As I said, and I forget which thread. Im not mad at the trade. I just dont think we needed to give up that much. I just look at other big trades, and I dont see the top 2 pitching prospects going the other way.
Laley23
Posts: 29,506
Jul 31, 2011 10:14am
This is a bit harsh, but from Keith Law:
"Per Ketih Law: Cleveland was two outs away from falling to .500 on the year tonight and yet is acting like a serious contender that is in win-now rather than rebuilding mode. It makes no sense, and if Jimenez can't regain the form he showed before the midpoint of 2010, then the Indians have damaged the long-term state of the franchise by trading away the entire careers of two top pitching prospects to get him. Ouch."
"Per Ketih Law: Cleveland was two outs away from falling to .500 on the year tonight and yet is acting like a serious contender that is in win-now rather than rebuilding mode. It makes no sense, and if Jimenez can't regain the form he showed before the midpoint of 2010, then the Indians have damaged the long-term state of the franchise by trading away the entire careers of two top pitching prospects to get him. Ouch."
F
Footwedge
Posts: 9,265
Jul 31, 2011 10:20am
Not everybody here was clamoring for the Indians to be buyers. I know I wasn't. This team has been pretty bad over the past 2 months. They are nowhere near being a contender this year. Now with these 2 young studs manning starting positions, the tribe could have been buyers in a couple of years. Not now. I agree 100% with this guy below.SportsAndLady;847221 wrote:Can't understand how tribe fans can be mad at.this trade? Hoops hit the nail on the head.
Not to mention you can't say "our front office just sits back and doesn't do **** to help the team" like a lot of you Were saying...then when they go get one of the best pitchers in baseball you say you gave up too much...prospects are prospects..they Come and go..a good amount of them amount to nothing...in 2 years you'll have another pom and white...that's how it works.
Be happy your team made a move...as a reds fan, I was hoping they'd trade for ubaldo
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=law_keith&id=6819978&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fmlb%2fblog%3fname%3dlaw_keith%26id%3d6819978
Laley23
Posts: 29,506
Jul 31, 2011 10:22am
So does Ubaldo go versus Beckett on Tuesday? Replacing Huff.
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Jul 31, 2011 10:23am
Good trade.
like_that
Posts: 26,625
Jul 31, 2011 10:41am
Laley23;847297 wrote:This is a bit harsh, but from Keith Law:
"Per Ketih Law: Cleveland was two outs away from falling to .500 on the year tonight and yet is acting like a serious contender that is in win-now rather than rebuilding mode. It makes no sense, and if Jimenez can't regain the form he showed before the midpoint of 2010, then the Indians have damaged the long-term state of the franchise by trading away the entire careers of two top pitching prospects to get him. Ouch."
I agree with him. The franchise set themselves back another 5 years.
A
Al Bundy
Posts: 4,180
Jul 31, 2011 10:49am
like_that;847307 wrote:I agree with him. The franchise set themselves back another 5 years.
The are only a 1.5 games out. You add a guy who should get around 12 starts the rest of year and is signed for two more years for unproven players. If they don't win the division the next couple years and Pom and White go on to be studs, then we made a bad trade. Most prospects never make. Look at the "can't miss prospects" that were hyped up during the last decade for the tribe. Most of them do nothing at the major league level.
wes_mantooth
Posts: 17,977
Jul 31, 2011 11:04am
Laley23;847294 wrote:As I said, and I forget which thread. Im not mad at the trade. I just dont think we needed to give up that much. I just look at other big trades, and I dont see the top 2 pitching prospects going the other way.
Well, I think that has to do with how long we get him for....but it that is the case....how bad does the return on Cliff Lee look!!!