thedynasty1998;772679 wrote:The age excuse doesn't carry any weight. What about Griffin and Rose and others who perform right away. Everyone leaves early now.

Hickson came up because someone said the Cavs should pass on Williams because he doesn't fit with Hickson. My point is that you do not make any decisions with Hickson in mind. Like I said, I think he has value. But his value would be in a coming off the bench and playing 20 minutes a night. Not as one of your top 2-3 players.

Like I said, Hickson wasn't a highly touted player like Rose. Cleveland knew that Hickson would be a work in progress with his jump shot and defense, he has massive athleticism but in no way was he going to be performing like Rose even 2 years into the league.

Did you honestly expect Hickson to perform out of the gate like Rose?

Hickson has continued to improve each year, I don't see it stopping any time soon. He played extremely well down the stretch.

devil1197;772685 wrote:Like I said, Hickson wasn't a highly touted player like Rose. Cleveland knew that Hickson would be a work in progress with his jump shot and defense, he has massive athleticism but in no way was he going to be performing like Rose even 2 years into the league.

Did you honestly expect Hickson to perform out of the gate like Rose?

Hickson has continued to improve each year, I don't see it stopping any time soon. He played extremely well down the stretch.

Obviously not. But he was a first round pick at a time when the Cavs needed instant contributions from him. I just don't like to make excuses for guys. Either do it or be criticized.

And massive athleticism might be a stretch. He jumps well but isn't great in terms of quickness

thedynasty1998;772694 wrote:Obviously not. But he was a first round pick at a time when the Cavs needed instant contributions from him. I just don't like to make excuses for guys. Either do it or be criticized.

And massive athleticism might be a stretch. He jumps well but isn't great in terms of quickness

I don't know if you followed the Cavaliers back then but JJ was not needed for instant contributions nor was he selected for them.

He was a young big who Ferry liked and wanted to groom under a team that at the time was one of the best in the league.

I don't think JJ will become the every year all star, but I also don't believe in giving up or taking minutes away from a player that is improving each year.

JJ will be an above average NBA player with the ability to become more than that imo. He is the type of player you want to keep with the incoming selections that Cleveland will be making.

I am struggling with this #1 pick you have to take Irving but Wiliams has almost a high of ceiling (if not higher) but also has potential to turn into a big bust. Irving is the safest pick IMO. Plus there is a slight chance Willams falls to 4. I think there are good players to get with the 4 via trade too (not named gay and igudala) just not sure who and what else it may cost.

He's had to fight for minutes his whole career and you have to give him some time to adjust to not playing with LeBron. He was one of the biggest benefactors of LeBron, now he has to find his own shot more often. He did pretty well doing that this year, I think the Cavs are pretty well set at PF for now. I don't see Williams as a must have guy, not like Irving. Williams just creates more of a log jam at the 4 position where there are already 3 guys you want on the floor.

OneBuckeye;772711 wrote:I am struggling with this #1 pick you have to take Irving but Wiliams has almost a high of ceiling (if not higher) but also has potential to turn into a big bust. Irving is the safest pick IMO. Plus there is a slight chance Willams falls to 4. I think there are good players to get with the 4 via trade too (not named gay and igudala) just not sure who and what else it may cost.

Take Irving and if you really like Williams that bad, try to trade with Minnesota to move up to #2? Could be a possibility.

What is everyone thoughts on trading Varejao if possible? If you are going to select Williams, I'd look at getting rid of one of our bigs to open up minutes.

The Boss;772715 wrote:He's had to fight for minutes his whole career and you have to give him some time to adjust to not playing with LeBron. He was one of the biggest benefactors of LeBron, now he has to find his own shot more often. He did pretty well doing that this year, I think the Cavs are pretty well set at PF for now. I don't see Williams as a must have guy, not like Irving. Williams just creates more of a log jam at the 4 position where there are already 3 guys you want on the floor.

Why wouldn't Willams play the 3 or 2 even with the way he shoots?

OneBuckeye;772723 wrote:Why wouldn't Willams play the 3 or 2 even with the way he shoots?

Because he would get shit stomped by other 2's and 3's in the league night in and night out. He's a pretty solid defender but he defends the paint, he'll get killed out on the perimeter. He might be a little undersized but there is no doubt that this man is a post player. He can float out and hit a long jumper, but that's the extent of his perimeter game.

On JJ Hickson. I think this is premature talk and he could still devlop nicely. The next few years under Byron Scott will prove my David West theory correct or not.

David West pre Byron Scott had years of 3pt 4 reb, 6 pt 4 reb (JJ pre-Scott: 4pt 3 reb, 9 pt, 5 reb). His first year under Scott he went 17/7 (JJ 14/9). Since then he's averaged 18-21 pts and 7-8 rebounds per game. He was also in the doghouse in year 1 under Scott and they really butted heads over a lot of similar issues to why JJ sometimes voiced his unhappiness with his playing time. It may sound dumb to compare the two but I think they have very similar skills and have followed similar career paths up to now.

Edit: Also want to mention West has performed better since they got CP3. With the Cavs getting Irving whose comparison to an NBA player is CP3 their careers become even more eerily linked together.

OneBuckeye;772723 wrote:Why wouldn't Willams play the 3 or 2 even with the way he shoots?

He could shoot like a 2 but he cannot defend like a 2.

Log jam at PF? The Cavs don't have a log jam anywhere. I'm fine with te Cavs not liking Williams but I hope it's not because of JJ.

And on trades, everyone is expendable.

thedynasty1998;772753 wrote:Log jam at PF? The Cavs don't have a log jam anywhere. I'm fine with te Cavs not liking Williams but I hope it's not because of JJ.

And on trades, everyone is expendable.

You have Jamison, Varejao and Hickson. Why in the hell would you want to pass up Irving to add a 4th PF who was hardly mentioned before he tore up the PLUMLEE'S in the NCAA Tournament? If you get him at 4 then it makes sense, but taking him with the #1 is just flat out stupid really.

thedynasty1998;772753 wrote:Log jam at PF? The Cavs don't have a log jam anywhere. I'm fine with te Cavs not liking Williams but I hope it's not because of JJ.

And on trades, everyone is expendable.

You would have to get rid of either Jamison or Varejao if you selected Williams. That would be 4 PF's on the roster.

I would love to trade for Rudy gay with our 4th pick. With him and Irving the cavs can definitely make a run St the playoffs

Crimson streak;772778 wrote:I would love to trade for Rudy gay with our 4th pick. With him and Irving the cavs can definitely make a run St the playoffs

That'd be a great move, but do you think they can pull it off? Not sure how they could make that work, I highly doubt Memphis would want to take on Baron.

Irving was wooed by LBJ's marketing team but politely declined their offer. Question: If Irving would have been represented by LBJ's guys do you think the Cavs would have gone in a different direction? I do understand they still might.

september63;772789 wrote:Irving was wooed by LBJ's marketing team but politely declined their offer. Question: If Irving would have been represented by LBJ's guys do you think the Cavs would have gone in a different direction? I do understand they still might.

Well, with Gilbert's track record, I would say there is a good chance they wouldn't have drafted him just based on that fact alone.

The Boss;772780 wrote:That'd be a great move, but do you think they can pull it off? Not sure how they could make that work, I highly doubt Memphis would want to take on Baron.

I'm assuming it would be the TPE and 4th pick for Gay. I would be very surprised if Memphis would do that, but they will want to clear some cap space to resign Gasol. I think they will be looking to move Mayo instead to clear some extra space.

My take on the cavs draft:
W/ the #1, they have to take Kyrie Irving unless his toe remains a major issue, which they have denied. This team needs someone to create plays. Look how much better they were with Baron Davis. This is a point guard league, if Irving compares to Chris Paul, this is a no brainer

W/ the #4 pick, if they can turn it into a guy like Rudy Gay or another major upgrade at a wing position it is worth a look. IF there was a stud at the wing in this draft I would consider them here, but I don't think there is. I was not impressed when I saw Leonard play this year. He can defend and rebound well for a wing, I'm just not sure if he will have a good enough offensive game that warrants the #4 overall pick. IMO, you can get a guy similar to this at #32.
If no trade is available, I believe you go w/ whatever BIG they like the best, whether that is Kanter, Jonas or Motiejunas. Jan Vesley is getting alot of love from some mock drafts, but he is a 3/4 combo. Has incredible length and can shoot, run and dunk but has questionable handles and it is unknown if he can defend the 3. I look at him and D. Williams in the same light. Both guys have tremendous upside especially if they can defend the 3. I really don't think Williams can, and I honestly have no idea if Vesley can.

If those two guys are 4's, it then brings us to JJ Hickson. I think he deserves 1 more year. His rookie year was lost to injuries and Mike Brown's unwillingness to play young guys. His 2nd year he played well when given the opportunity. Most of his points came from being set-up by LBJ. Last year started as a disappointment, but it appeared he started to take to heart what coach Scott was preaching and played well down the stretch ending the season averaging almost 14/9. He shot an awful percentage for 2 reasons. First, at the start of the year he fell in love w/ his jumper which was improved but not polished. Second, once AV went down, he was forced to play out of position at center. While this move may have helped him to some degree, it hurt his FG%, getting shots blocked and contested by bigger defenders than he is used to going against. With him moving back to the 4, continued improvement w/ his J and shot selection, and the addition of a true play making point guard along w/ B-Diddy should raise his shooting percentage closer to the 55% (or better) he shot in 09/10. If he shot that percentage last year he averages 16/9.

The Boss;772763 wrote:who was hardly mentioned before he tore up the PLUMLEE'S in the NCAA Tournament?

Maybe you watch little college basketball so you didn't know who he was, but I'm pretty sure once he dropped 27 in an 8pt loss to Kansas early in the year people knew who he was.

He's really freaking good. 19 and 8 for an Elite 8 team shooting 60% from floor and 56% from 3. It's not like he was a slouch last year, scoring 16 and 7.

Yeah I think they should keep Hickson. If they don't, he'll end up being another one of those players that let Cleveland and shined somewhere else. He's still young, he was drafted as a project--one that has worked out pretty well so far--finish what you started. We saw what playing with LeBron did for him, now he's a better player all around and if you put a guy like Irving in there, who knows. He's earned his spot on this team IMO.

The Boss;772780 wrote:That'd be a great move, but do you think they can pull it off? Not sure how they could make that work, I highly doubt Memphis would want to take on Baron.

They wouldn't have to. #4 pick and trade exception for Rudy Gay. Gay's salary next year is $15 mil and our trade exception is $14.5 mil

lhslep134;772814 wrote:Maybe you watch little college basketball so you didn't know who he was, but I'm pretty sure once he dropped 27 in an 8pt loss to Kansas early in the year people knew who he was.

He's really freaking good. 19 and 8 for an Elite 8 team shooting 60% from floor and 56% from 3. It's not like he was a slouch last year, scoring 16 and 7.

No I knew who he was, I'm just saying, his draft stock SOARED because of the tournament. And he definitely deserves some props for that. But the other guy being considered at #1 was far and away, easily the consensus #1 player in college basketball before his injury. And they say the toe is no big deal anymore. There are question marks with Williams. The only question mark with Irving was the toe and that seems to have been answered. He's a no brainer.

lhslep134;772818 wrote:They wouldn't have to. #4 pick and trade exception for Rudy Gay. Gay's salary next year is $15 mil and our trade exception is $14.5 mil

Hmm...well I bet we find out how willing Memphis is to trading him because I'm sure that route will be examined at the very least.

Wooball;772811 wrote: I think they will be looking to move Mayo instead to clear some extra space.

I would take Mayo too, but Mayos RFA status at the end of next year worries me a little considering I think you could possibly get Iggy for the exception.