Gblock;683048 wrote:even with this bill students will eventually have to be passed on....you cant have 16 year olds in middle school.

Why can't you have a 16 yr old in middle school? He/she can be the laughing stock of the school for not being able to pass 7th and 8th grade. Eventually they might decide to pick up a book and study.

There was a 16 year old in 8th grade when I was in 8th grade, why would it be so tramatic now?

wkfan;683153 wrote:We do know that other contries, such as Japan, China, etc do not educate all of their children.

In those countries, if you do not pass the entrance test to high school, you do not attend high school. Rather, you attend a trade school or something like that. Countries who differentiate their students in that manner do not report them as high school or university participants...because they are not.

In our country, we are bound to educate all students....in fact, those on IEPs (Individualized Education Plans), mainstreamed Special Education students, etc are counted in state, district, school and individuel teacher statistics, such as AYP.

You cannot compare our apples to their oranges.

Good to know, and if that's true, you're right. It's far from a black and white comparison.

Assuming that all this is true, I recant my points regarding this.

jmog;683155 wrote:Why can't you have a 16 yr old in middle school? He/she can be the laughing stock of the school for not being able to pass 7th and 8th grade. Eventually they might decide to pick up a book and study.

There was a 16 year old in 8th grade when I was in 8th grade, why would it be so tramatic now?

yea we have one...but for the most part parents dont want 12 year old girls in the school w/ 16 year old boys type of thing...they are just too big and strong and even if they fought a boy they could hurt someone....everybody have a good weekend! see you monday

Gblock;683053 wrote:also they dont teach the two digit multiplication anymore because you get a calculator for the test fyi....i personally make them learn it first before using calculators but some districts dont require it and teach all math skills using the calculator that is used on the OAA Ti-30xIIs is the model i think

So retarded, well computers can read books now, should we stop teaching kids how to read since a computer can read the book to them?

I'm an engineer, so I'm all for tools like calculators, computers, spreadsheets, etc, but good Lord the student needs to learn how to do the problem correctly by hand before they should be aloud to use a calculator.

Gblock;683053 wrote:also they dont teach the two digit multiplication anymore because you get a calculator for the test fyi....i personally make them learn it first before using calculators but some districts dont require it and teach all math skills using the calculator that is used on the OAA Ti-30xIIs is the model i think

No calculators at my school for lower level math

Gblock;683159 wrote:yea we have one...but for the most part parents dont want 12 year old girls in the school w/ 16 year old boys type of thing...they are just too big and strong and even if they fought a boy they could hurt someone....everybody have a good weekend! see you monday

Then eventually the education system has to have the right to say "sorry, but you're out if you can't pass this year". You are 16, go work at McDonald's.

bonelizzard;683017 wrote: Ok I've washed my hands clean of this forum and wish you all farewell. It really was entertaining to me.. and thanks.. little smiley faces and everything.

Maybe you would have had better success if you tried making an argument as to why this would be bad instead of just making a statement with nothing to back it up and then getting defensive when anyone questioned your opinion.

Then again, maybe everyone already has their minds made up and it wouldn't make a difference one way or the other.

Re: Other countries scores

I don't have a link either, but I agree with GBlock that it is just one of those things that is commonly discussed in the educational realm. If someone reports that Canadian students are smarter, on what test are they being judged? In order to TRULY judge the educational levels, aptitude, etc, the entire WORLD would have to be on the same standardized education. We can almost compare state-to-state in our nation quite accurately b/c our standardized tests.

As far as the "not everyone being tested," that is another one I've heard plenty. If Turkey (let's say Turkey for the hell of it) has kids go to school up until the 8th grade, then kids have the option to enter HS, or Turkey gets to select the kids that go to HS, that is going to sway the numbers. Examples I have heard include where students are broken up by educational knowledge level as they go through school (in many countries). Some will go to "university" type schools, some will go to trade schools, some will drop out, etc. The ones that are tested and reported are the smartest ones, the ones who go to the "university" type schools.

You can change numbers around to say whatever you want. People say that in this forum all the time, and the same applies here. The statistics that are reported are flawed, and the reason that everyone is on different levels is because we compare apples to oranges to bananas to pineapples to O-Trap.

There's either something very wrong with out education system or there isn't. I lean more towards there is.

jmog;683170 wrote:Then eventually the education system has to have the right to say "sorry, but you're out if you can't pass this year". You are 16, go work at McDonald's.

That's how it works in Switzerland. At the middle school level either you keep advancing or go to trade school.

Manhattan Buckeye;683303 wrote:That's how it works in Switzerland. At the middle school level either you keep advancing or go to trade school.

Silly Socialists.

BoatShoes;683311 wrote:Silly Socialists.

If "Socialists" are the people who agree with doing that, then Socialists and I now have something in common.

BoatShoes;683311 wrote:Silly Socialists.

What's socialist about that? Socialist is insisting that we have equal results for everyone - this is equal opportunity, everyone had the opportunity to advance, and if you don't there isn't anyone stopping you from still advancing - just don't expect the taxpayers to pay for it.

Likewise, don't expect taxpayers in the U.S. to be happy about paying ineffective teachers simply because they have union protection.

I have come to the conclusion that there are too many republican teachers, firefighters & police officers who will be vacating the republican party because of this bill. They will exit with their families (extended families also) in tow and those voting on this bill will not be in office after the next election.

Sonofanump;683349 wrote:I have come to the conclusion that there are too many republican teachers, firefighters & police officers who will be vacating the republican party because of this bill. They will exit with their families (extended families also) in tow and those voting on this bill will not be in office after the next election.

I doubt very much that there are enough of those folks to swing an election, but God knows government hiring has been going along at a lot higher rate than the private sector the past couple years, so anything is possible I guess.

^^^

That is certainly possible, but how many lifelong Democrats that are unemployed or drastically underemployed have found religion in the last couple of years and realized that the nation's direction is unsustainable? There is a reason why the Congressional and state elections went heavily GOP in '10.

It doesn't matter if you are a GOP or DEM, if you are underemployed, facing foreclosure, drowning in debt and fearful of your children's futures - there is going to be some animosity towards those that have this sense of entitlement.

Strickland 2014

Photo going around of him at sb5 hearing yesterday...

Sent from my Sprint HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk

He's a sad, bitter and angry little man. I'm so ashamed I voted for him.

bonelizzard;682675 wrote:good for you dw. Phone calls work better. More effective. more personal. Feel free to copy my post and edit it however you want, like you did before. Should have been at the State House yesterday in real support but that would have actually taken some effort and you would have had to get out into the real world. SB5 opponents far outnumbered SB5 supporters.

Phone calls are more effective and more personal? I don't have the time to sit and wait on the phone, an e-mail is just as effective. Seeing as how I live and work in Northwest Ohio, I didn't have the time to come down and protest. I contributed by e-mailing the senators. And as far as the real world, I was out in it and contributing to it at work today. What were you doing? Were you educating the students the past few days you were protesting?

Fab4Runner;682682 wrote:The majority of the supporters were probably at work. I know I was.

Exactly.

bonelizzard;682840 wrote:You guys must not have been working too hard while I was practicing my constitutional privilege of free speech at the State House.

Sounds like you weren't working at all if you were at the state house.

bonelizzard;682863 wrote:good for you... +1 on in the post column.. lol cha ching...

Resort to personal attacks when you have nothing intelligent left to debate.

bonelizzard;682927 wrote:oh so you are familiar with padding posts.. ok, I didn't think that mattered to you... lol.. i like the rolling eyes too.. really cracks me up..
that report must be done now that you have time to post here on the Chatter..

Isadore, just admit this is you.

Grandpa had a lot of sayings, some dumb and some took me awhile to figure out.

One that he always used whenever they hit a rough patch in their lives was;
"Don't ever eat your seed corn." He was of the 4 year rotation/old school and always saved his seed from the previous year's crop. No matter how bad it got, he said you've got to plan for the next year.

This idea of cutting education in the name of fiscal probity is wrong. It's not just wrong, it's evil. Evil that has been planned and is being implemented by the GOP. We are on the verge of condemning our children and their children to a dismal future. One of a third world service economy, far removed from the innovation and entrepreneurship that has made America the envy of the world.

Balance the books, but don't do it on the backs of the kids. We pay way less taxes (as a percentage) then our parents or grandparents did. But they understood that it was to give their kids a head start in a very difficult world. Sure they bitched and moaned every year, but then they never turned down a levy.

When did not paying taxes become the holy grail of society? How did doing your civic duty become I got mine, you get yours?

Mark my words, you will rue the day that S.B.5 becomes law. Your grandchildren will curse your name if you allow this to become their future.

"This idea of cutting education in the name of fiscal probity is wrong."

You mean the idea of cutting bloated salaries/benefits, who is cutting education? From my standpoint the people cutting education are the teachers in Wisconsin calling in sick and not doing their damn job. So if we tell teachers they have to contribute "X" percent more to their pensions 'education' will suffer. What are they going to do, teach crappier? If that's the case our system isn't just broken, it is permanently broken.

"We are on the verge of condemning our children and their children to a dismal future."

Indeed by running deficits that they will pay for, or else we'll default. Their future is bleak due to the bloated government and unfunded entitlements that the cowards in society won't address...but rather run away from and expect someone else to take care of it...namely the future generations.

I think I forgot something...

Can somebody please tell me how teachers having to negotiate for themselves, pay a little more towards their healthcare and pensions - how that's going to ruin education?
How is that going to force our kids and grandkids to hate us?
How is that is going to eradicate "innovation and entrepreneurship" ???

I mean, it's getting sickening now

CenterBHSFan;683382 wrote:I think I forgot something...

Can somebody please tell me how teachers having to negotiate for themselves, pay a little more towards their healthcare and pensions - how that's going to ruin education?
How is that going to force our kids and grandkids to hate us?
How is that is going to eradicate "innovation and entrepreneurship" ???

I mean, it's getting sickening now

Not sure I would be answering your question. Here is a economic perspective. Schools are a non revenue producing employer. The schools would have no motive to hire the best teachers, they would have a motive to hire the cheapest teachers. Unlike a private enterprise where the quality of the worker is reflected in the amount that the company wants to pay them, public sector employers would now just be concerned that a body is classroom to matter what the qualifications or experience.

Sonofanump;683388 wrote:Not sure I would be answering your question. Here is a economic perspective. Schools are a non revenue producing employer. The schools would have no motive to hire the best teachers, they would have a motive to hire the cheapest teachers. Unlike a private enterprise where the quality of the worker is reflected in the amount that the company wants to pay them, public sector employers would now just be concerned that a body is classroom to matter what the qualifications or experience.

So how do private schools work (that are also non-profit)? Do you think Andover, Exeter, Spence, Dalton, etc., etc. go out and look for the cheapest teachers available? Of course not, the reason is that these schools are accountable to their customers - if a parent is shelling out $20,000 for tuition you're darned tootin' they want great teachers and expect the schools to go out and get them and pay them accordingly. Stakeholders in public schools (parents and even non-parent taxpayers) don't enjoy nearly as much accountability from the labor force, because the collective bargaining arrangement hijacks most accountability.

Manhattan Buckeye;683394 wrote:So how do private schools work (that are also non-profit)? Do you think Andover, Exeter, Spence, Dalton, etc., etc. go out and look for the cheapest teachers available? Of course not, the reason is that these schools are accountable to their customers - if a parent is shelling out $20,000 for tuition you're darned tootin' they want great teachers and expect the schools to go out and get them and pay them accordingly. Stakeholders in public schools (parents and even non-parent taxpayers) don't enjoy nearly as much accountability from the labor force, because the collective bargaining arrangement hijacks most accountability.

I am confused. Where does that tuition go and why do they pay that much? Do public schools get that amount also in your area?

The private schools I know pay less for teachers. They get either lesser qualified and experienced teachers or teachers who are doing it for religious reasons and the spouse makes enough to support the avocation.