QuakerOats;996270 wrote:The unbiased voters did not give him a defeat at all. They voted nearly 100% for Issue 2 / SB5. Rather it was those feeding at the public trough and those indirectly benefiting from same that voted in majority numbers to defeat SB5. The math is easy: 400,000 public workers + spouse + 2 parents = enough votes to win the majority ---- it simply means the deck is stacked. I am pretty sure even you can understand this.


The bottom line is, and as great observor's have stated - "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."

It's pretty simply, we either institute the reforms and get unions out of government, or we start bouncing checks. Pick one.

Five private sector, non union anti SB 5 votes from my family. Where you pulling your facts from now, same place as usual?

fish82;996287 wrote:Yeah...that would be meaningful if I EVER used Fox News as a source. Another face plant...you're on fire today. :laugh:

If you don't watch, you certainly can't tell from the dribble that comes from your mouth. Your belly light. And by the way, You Lie!

QuakerOats;996270 wrote:The unbiased voters did not give him a defeat at all. They voted nearly 100% for Issue 2 / SB5. Rather it was those feeding at the public trough and those indirectly benefiting from same that voted in majority numbers to defeat SB5. The math is easy: 400,000 public workers + spouse + 2 parents = enough votes to win the majority ---- it simply means the deck is stacked. I am pretty sure even you can understand this.

The bottom line is, and as great observor's have stated - "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."

It's pretty simply, we either institute the reforms and get unions out of government, or we start bouncing checks. Pick one.

You said this in the SB5 thread and I refuted your math and logic...unfortunately, the thread was shut down.

What I said was.....Your myopic opinion on this subject will not allow you to see any of the gray, but just the black and white of it. You are no better than the union backers who vote for an issue or candidate because the union tells you to.

I voted 'No' on Issue 2 as did my wife.

My parents are dead, as is my father-in-law. My kids voted 'Yes'. Your 'math' falls apart already as there are many, many 'family units' in the same situation as mine.

You continue to espouse that this is a 'union' vs. 'non-union' issue only. That is simply not true. Sure, there are morons that vote along union lines, which to me is akin to voting along party lines. However, Kasich pissed so many people off with his rhetoric and with his approach to this issue that they simply would not approve it in its curent form.

Just so you know...many of us who voted 'No' on Issue 2 think that there is merit in some parts of SB5. However the entire package, just like Obamacare, is just bad legislation. Broken up, there are provisions (such as inability to strike, merit pay) that should be implemented and some that should be shot down (such as the arbitration provisions).

What you added to this post is another unfounded and completely false assertion that you cannot back up. So, almost 100% of unbiased voters voted for Issue 2? Care to cite a link to back that up??

I'll not hold my breath...all you are stating is that only those who voted with you are unbiased.

I call BS.

Bigdogg;996697 wrote:Five private sector, non union anti SB 5 votes from my family. Where you pulling your facts from now, same place as usual?

The facts are easy to discern: about 3.5 million votes cast, thus 1.8 million votes necessary to win. 400,000 public workers + spouse + 2 parents and 1 best friend and, bingo, you have the 2 million votes that were garnered to win. Pretty simple mathematical facts; give it a shot.

Just about everyone else, except for your 5 votes, voted to support SB5, which is where those 1.4 million votes came from.

The deck is stacked and it will be nearly impossible to unwind, which is why ultimately we run out of money and sink into chaos ..... ala Greece. Should be fun.

wkfan --- the binding arbitration provision is perhaps the single most egregious part of the entire situation. It is a terrible provision and is costing every governmental unit countless dollars, which in the aggregate is easily into the hundreds of millions.

We need cost sharing on average health care plans (not cadillac plans)
We need cost sharing on average pension plans (not cadillac plans)
And we need to rid ourselves of binding arbitration - period.

At a minimum, this must occur.

QuakerOats;996785 wrote:wkfan --- the binding arbitration provision is perhaps the single most egregious part of the entire situation. It is a terrible provision and is costing every governmental unit countless dollars, which in the aggregate is easily into the hundreds of millions.

We need cost sharing on average health care plans (not cadillac plans)
We need cost sharing on average pension plans (not cadillac plans)
And we need to rid ourselves of binding arbitration - period.

At a minimum, this must occur.

Wonderful...how does this possibly relate to my post? I'm asking since you addressed it to me.

QuakerOats;996780 wrote:The facts are easy to discern: about 3.5 million votes cast, thus 1.8 million votes necessary to win. 400,000 public workers + spouse + 2 parents and 1 best friend and, bingo, you have the 2 million votes that were garnered to win. Pretty simple mathematical facts; give it a shot.

Just about everyone else, except for your 5 votes, voted to support SB5, which is where those 1.4 million votes came from.

The deck is stacked and it will be nearly impossible to unwind, which is why ultimately we run out of money and sink into chaos ..... ala Greece. Should be fun.

I'm now puzzled as to whether you actually believe this or are just spouting off to hear yourself 'talk'.

wkfan;996791 wrote:Wonderful...how does this possibly relate to my post? I'm asking since you addressed it to me.

Because you said: "Broken up, there are provisions (such as inability to strike, merit pay) that should be implemented and some that should be shot down (such as the arbitration provisions).

QuakerOats;996270 wrote:The unbiased voters did not give him a defeat at all. They voted nearly 100% for Issue 2 / SB5. Rather it was those feeding at the public trough and those indirectly benefiting from same that voted in majority numbers to defeat SB5. The math is easy: 400,000 public workers + spouse + 2 parents = enough votes to win the majority ---- it simply means the deck is stacked. I am pretty sure even you can understand this.


The bottom line is, and as great observor's have stated - "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."

It's pretty simply, we either institute the reforms and get unions out of government, or we start bouncing checks. Pick one.

Given the questions about your interpretation of the results of the vote on Issue 2. Here is analysis of as much based on exit polling as your results.
150,020 haters of fire fighters mainly pyromaniacs
150,100 haters of garbage men mainly germophiles
2,100 haters of street workers mainly repair garage operators
200,040 haters of school teachers mainly illiterates and bedwetters
300,060 assorted misers and scrooges
500,000 haters of police officers mainly shoplifters, armed robbers, rapists and child molesters
1 Quakers Oats
45 others
____________________\
1,352,366
No votes
2,145,000 decent compassionate empathetic, responsible voters
1 me
41 others
_________________
2,145,042

Yeah, that's it, we're all haters. Lose the argument, bring in hate .... what's next, race?

Incredible.

your number analysis of the election were laughable and called for an equally ridiculos reply, your other statements have been consistently refuted by different.
Oh yeh and beside that Ohio voters overwhelmingly rejected issue 2, you lost that argument.

sleeper;991281 wrote:The banking industry was forced into bringing in clients that could not afford the loans that were being given to them./QUOTE]

This is demonstrably untrue and I have provided several sources indicating as such. It certainly isn't worth bothering again as you cannot shake the faith of a true believer. The Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission determined that government policies were not a significant factor contributing to the subprime mortgage crisis as the GSE's followed rather than lead the private sector into risky lending. If your beliefs about government policies were true than there would not have been concurrent bubbles in both commercial and residential real estate and yet there were.

Your beliefs about the world are not supported by evidence.

isadore, we share some viewpoints on Kasich not being a super Governor. But that doesn't mean that everyone who holds a different opinion hates police, firemen, happiness, and puppies. Maybe they simply disagree with you.

I Wear Pants;1005099 wrote:isadore, we share some viewpoints on Kasich not being a super Governor. But that doesn't mean that everyone who holds a different opinion hates police, firemen, happiness, and puppies. Maybe they simply disagree with you.

Votes have effect. The campaign over this issue was long and expensive. Many sources of information were available. The destructive effects of SB5 to public workers were obvious to anyone who took the time to examine the issue. With many supporters of SB5 their hatred for public workers is obvious as can be told by reading the threads on Kasich and the issue here. For the rest who voted to support it, their actions are definitive. They either knowingly voted for a piece of legislation that would cause grievous harm to police, teachers and firefighter. Or they in supposed ignorance but in an information rich environment, surrounded by sources telling them of the harm they were about to, chose to vote for legislation to nail public workers to the Cross. They practice willful blindness to the possible effects of their vote
Their indifference to the harm they would cause is very much a form of hatred.

BoatShoes;1004874 wrote:

sleeper;991281 wrote:The banking industry was forced into bringing in clients that could not afford the loans that were being given to them./QUOTE]

This is demonstrably untrue and I have provided several sources indicating as such. It certainly isn't worth bothering again as you cannot shake the faith of a true believer. The Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission determined that government policies were not a significant factor contributing to the subprime mortgage crisis as the GSE's followed rather than lead the private sector into risky lending. If your beliefs about government policies were true than there would not have been concurrent bubbles in both commercial and residential real estate and yet there were.

Your beliefs about the world are not supported by evidence.

You need to thoroughly read the dissenting opinions of those on the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission, that is, if you want the non-political reality of the matter. Good luck.

isadore;1005254 wrote:Votes have effect. The campaign over this issue was long and expensive. Many sources of information were available. The destructive effects of SB5 to public workers were obvious to anyone who took the time to examine the issue. With many supporters of SB5 their hatred for public workers is obvious as can be told by reading the threads on Kasich and the issue here. For the rest who voted to support it, their actions are definitive. They either knowingly voted for a piece of legislation that would cause grievous harm to police, teachers and firefighter. Or they in supposed ignorance but in an information rich environment, surrounded by sources telling them of the harm they were about to, chose to vote for legislation to nail public workers to the Cross. They practice willful blindness to the possible effects of their vote
Their indifference to the harm they would cause is very much a form of hatred.

I don't believe I have ever read a larger crock of bul!sh!).

I refer you here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEkWH8DB7b0

BoatShoes;1004874 wrote:

sleeper;991281 wrote:The banking industry was forced into bringing in clients that could not afford the loans that were being given to them./QUOTE]

This is demonstrably untrue and I have provided several sources indicating as such. It certainly isn't worth bothering again as you cannot shake the faith of a true believer. The Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission determined that government policies were not a significant factor contributing to the subprime mortgage crisis as the GSE's followed rather than lead the private sector into risky lending. If your beliefs about government policies were true than there would not have been concurrent bubbles in both commercial and residential real estate and yet there were.

Your beliefs about the world are not supported by evidence.

Right. The government isn't at fault. Gotcha. Hey, how about more stimulus as that seems to work and foster economic recovery?

QuakerOats;1005610 wrote:I don't believe I have ever read a larger crock of bul!sh!).

I refer you here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEkWH8DB7b0

“All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” Arthur Schopenhauer
In the long run the truth about Kasich and the supporters of Issue 2 will be self evident to all.

The Westerville School District (just North of Columbus) is in dire straights. They are in financial ruin and their solution is to threaten to wipe out busing, eliminate sports, eliminate extra-curricular activites, and eliminate teaching positions that are considered, "non-essential". If this issue fails,then they will be forced to follow through with their threats or risk being taken over by the State...or worse...shut down. How many people will want to live in such a horrid school district? Better yet, how many people will flee a school system that is completely out of control as compared to Dublin, Pickerington, Reynoldsburg, etc.?

I suppose in the end, they'll have enough money left over to teach far less students. But the property taxes will be so exhorbitant, the inhabitants of Westerville will either revolt or beg the state/Feds to bail them out. In the end, the City of Westerville will lose, the property values will plummet, the taxes collected won't be enough to sustain the school system in its present state, and the other suburbs around the City will have the opportunity to teach the Westerville kids with budgets that won't be large enough. There isn't more magical money to be printed to save the unions, their teachers, and society from imploding from the largesse promulgated on us all.

But you people can claim that defeating Issue 2 was the best thing for everyone. Congrats. Now we all get to suffer.

BGFalcons82;1006658 wrote:The Westerville School District (just North of Columbus) is in dire straights. They are in financial ruin and their solution is to threaten to wipe out busing, eliminate sports, eliminate extra-curricular activites, and eliminate teaching positions that are considered, "non-essential". If this issue fails,then they will be forced to follow through with their threats or risk being taken over by the State...or worse...shut down. How many people will want to live in such a horrid school district? Better yet, how many people will flee a school system that is completely out of control as compared to Dublin, Pickerington, Reynoldsburg, etc.?

I suppose in the end, they'll have enough money left over to teach far less students. But the property taxes will be so exhorbitant, the inhabitants of Westerville will either revolt or beg the state/Feds to bail them out. In the end, the City of Westerville will lose, the property values will plummet, the taxes collected won't be enough to sustain the school system in its present state, and the other suburbs around the City will have the opportunity to teach the Westerville kids with budgets that won't be large enough. There isn't more magical money to be printed to save the unions, their teachers, and society from imploding from the largesse promulgated on us all.

But you people can claim that defeating Issue 2 was the best thing for everyone. Congrats. Now we all get to suffer.

sorry that is a fail...issue 2 or not this was going to happen.

BGFalcons82;1006658 wrote:The Westerville School District (just North of Columbus) is in dire straights. They are in financial ruin and their solution is to threaten to wipe out busing, eliminate sports, eliminate extra-curricular activites, and eliminate teaching positions that are considered, "non-essential". If this issue fails,then they will be forced to follow through with their threats or risk being taken over by the State...or worse...shut down. How many people will want to live in such a horrid school district? Better yet, how many people will flee a school system that is completely out of control as compared to Dublin, Pickerington, Reynoldsburg, etc.?

I suppose in the end, they'll have enough money left over to teach far less students. But the property taxes will be so exhorbitant, the inhabitants of Westerville will either revolt or beg the state/Feds to bail them out. In the end, the City of Westerville will lose, the property values will plummet, the taxes collected won't be enough to sustain the school system in its present state, and the other suburbs around the City will have the opportunity to teach the Westerville kids with budgets that won't be large enough. There isn't more magical money to be printed to save the unions, their teachers, and society from imploding from the largesse promulgated on us all.

But you people can claim that defeating Issue 2 was the best thing for everyone. Congrats. Now we all get to suffer.

Ah Westerville, their ancestors in “the Dry Capital of the World” inflicted America with the hateful 18[SUP]th[/SUP] Amendment, now that hatred has turned inward toward the children and teachers of their own community. Hey the hater types who voted for issue 2 have to live somewhere, Scrooge lived in London, a nest of his modern clones live in Westerville. Lehman Brother’s Governor gave them tax cuts instead of providing necessary funds for education. And the locals took the money and hoarded it as can be expected.
They have got the money. $78,764 median income when Ohio median income is $ 45,467, low unemployment far below the state rate, Delaware County 6.4 unemployment rates v 9% for the state.
They reject the obvious solution which is passage of a 1% school income tax. You mentioned Pickerington and Reynoldsburg, how people will flee from Westerville to them. Both have school income tax as should Westerville. But a bunch of cheap haters wont go for it.

BGFalcon82 wrote:Better yet, how many people will flee a school system that is completely out of control as compared to Dublin, Pickerington, Reynoldsburg, etc.?

http://www.abc6onyourside.com/shared/newsroom/top_stories/videos/wsyx_vid_14970.shtml
http://tax.ohio.gov/divisions/tax_analysis/tax_data_series/school_district_data/documents/sdit_map_and_list.pdf
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/39/3983342.html
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/39000.html
http://ohiolmi.com/laus/Ranking.pdf

isadore;1006114 wrote:“All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” Arthur Schopenhauer
In the long run the truth about Kasich and the supporters of Issue 2 will be self evident to all.

If you really knew John Kasich, you would be highly embarrassed by your hate speech regarding him.

A 1% school income tax is the kiss of death. It is merely just more extortion wrought by the greedy OEA, the organization that has made a fine art of holding school children and parents hostage.

Gblock;1006974 wrote:sorry that is a fail...issue 2 or not this was going to happen.

What fail? If it remained the law of the land, then there would be more funds available to keep more teachers on staff. Pretty simple math, really, as you compare revenues vs. costs. Lower costs/employee = more employees. Maybe there would still be layoffs, but not nearly to the extent they will be now.

Want another example? Look up what is happening in the Marion Sheriff's department. There's not enough money to keep what they have, so guess what they're doing? Anyone interested in moving to Marion knowing they can't provide a safe county to live in? What happens to the county and the property values (and tax revenue for the redistribution-types) when people move out and less folks move in? What happens to gun and ammo sales?

Congrats to the Issue 2 crowd for demanding that public unions keep on keepin on. You won....got any solutions other than raising everyone's taxes? Now everyone suffers as the misery spreads across all those served by public unions....which is...ahem...everyone.

BGFalcons82;1007136 wrote:What fail? If it remained the law of the land, then there would be more funds available to keep more teachers on staff. Pretty simple math, really, as you compare revenues vs. costs. Lower costs/employee = more employees. Maybe there would still be layoffs, but not nearly to the extent they will be now.

Want another example? Look up what is happening in the Marion Sheriff's department. There's not enough money to keep what they have, so guess what they're doing? Anyone interested in moving to Marion knowing they can't provide a safe county to live in? What happens to the county and the property values (and tax revenue for the redistribution-types) when people move out and less folks move in? What happens to gun and ammo sales?

Congrats to the Issue 2 crowd for demanding that public unions keep on keepin on. You won....got any solutions other than raising everyone's taxes? Now everyone suffers as the misery spreads across all those served by public unions....which is...ahem...everyone.

so your solution is to cut teacher pay to pay for busing and extracrurriculars and sports as well as non essential staff?? seems like a short term solution. even in that worked for a year or two what happens then next time you are short? costs are going to continue to rise you are going to be short again very quickly. surely your only solution cant be cut teacher pay. u got any other ideas??