You can't say what private sector wages "ought" to be -- the market determines that.

There is no such check for government pay. It simply keeps going up, even when the government is in the red.

The system is broken and needs to be fixed.

BoatShoes;583606 wrote:Part of this is because private sector wages for the average worker have not been rising and all of the economic growth during that time period in your graph has been going to the very top income brackets. I'm not arguing against the freezes. But let's take a step back and wonder, perhaps those wages that are higher than private sector jobs are normatively what private sector wages ought to have been during that time period.

To the extent the money went to top income brackets, it would still be in the averages. Now if you mean those gains are going to shareholders, you may have a point. Note that this chart is in Real 2008 dollars, meaning inflation adjusted.

More to the point, the govt competes for workers and I'd like someone to try to argue why the govt should be paying more for it's workers than comparable jobs in the private sector.

Writerbuckeye;583616 wrote:You can't say what private sector wages "ought" to be -- the market determines that.

Here here....But while private industry operates on the basis of capitalism, the govt operates on the basis of socialism, and that's part of the issues here.

Writerbuckeye;583616 wrote:You can't say what private sector wages "ought" to be -- the market determines that.

There is no such check for government pay. It simply keeps going up, even when the government is in the red.

The system is broken and needs to be fixed.

There are plenty of reasonable people, including conservatives, who might have non market based conceptions of what a wage might be. For instance, many people agree that if if a wage is to have any value it "ought" to increase with inflation. Most Americans today receive less real value in compensation in return for the same labor than they did 20 years ago, even before the economic crisis, despite increases in GDP (gross national income) overall over that same time period. I'm not saying that is bad or wrong, but there are plenty who believe this to be so and not just wacky liberals but reasonable people.

I'm not trying to defend government largesse but perhaps government wages would seem bloated if they've kept up with economic expansions while the private sector diverted analogous would be wage increases to only the top 10% of income earners.

gut;583633 wrote:Here here....But while private industry operates on the basis of capitalism, the govt operates on the basis of socialism, and that's part of the issues here.

This is a profundity. I haven't thought of it this way, but it makes a whole lot of sense.

derek bomar;583374 wrote: A pay freeze isn't that huge of a sacrifice to accept, considering you probably couldn't even get a job in the private sector right now (I don't know what you do - so take that FWIW).

and you probably couldnt get a job in the public sector right now either. it took me more than a year to get one. people are laid off right now in the public sector too incase you didnt know.

BoatShoes;583714 wrote: I'm not trying to defend government largesse but perhaps government wages would seem bloated if they've kept up with economic expansions while the private sector diverted analogous would be wage increases to only the top 10% of income earners.

Some good points, but the issue is more complicated. Inflation has been very tame for a number of years, and private sector wages reflect that while govt has continued to get decent annual increases. Wages in the private sector also reflect globalization, wihle govt wages have continued to increase at about the same pace as they always have. As mentioned, govt compensation has diverged from what free markets would dictate.

Compensation in the private sector has continued to keep pace with inflation, but it's true the worker continues to capture a declining share of their productivity gains. Again, however, back to globalization. Sure, blame the greedy corporations but there are few people who if it was their business would pay their workers significantly more than they have to out of the goodness of their heart, unless of course you're the govt and the money isn't yours and you don't work to create it in the first place.

Just a PSA, if you're a government employee and are subject to the freeze....probably not the best idea to gripe about it on facebook.

Just saw an unfortunate reaction from such a post.

se-alum;583566 wrote:In my example, i'm not exempting part of the demographic to make my point. I'm sure you could pick out different pay ranges and show advantages in the public sector for some, and advantages for gov't employees in some. Take it on the whole, and there is much more money in the private sector, even though they are statistically less educated. It is what it is, I'm not saying gov't employees should make more money or private sector workers should make less, as I don't have the Democrat train of thought that it's not fair if we aren't all equal. All I'm saying is, the stigma that all gov't employees are well off is assinine.

Well, yeah there is more money in the private sector because the private sector is much bigger than the public. I don't see how that really matters though in the sense of comparable compensation for public/private counterparts.

Writerbuckeye;583616 wrote:You can't say what private sector wages "ought" to be -- the market determines that.

There is no such check for government pay. It simply keeps going up, even when the government is in the red.

The system is broken and needs to be fixed.

Post of the year.

Glory Days;584018 wrote:and you probably couldnt get a job in the public sector right now either. it took me more than a year to get one. people are laid off right now in the public sector too incase you didnt know.

I for a fact know I could get a job in the public sector.

gut;583522 wrote:If you put pencil to paper I think you will find that govt pay, including benefits & pension, is generally well above average of comparable private/corporate positions. Sure, you won't get rich, you won't get the big CEO/VP salaries but neither do 99% of the people in comparable positions. It used to be the case that govt pay was more likely in the bottom quintile, but with pension & benefits it was probably overall near the average. And like many things, it could be viewed as a fair trade-off for job security, excellent work hours and generous vacation and holidays allowances.

Exactly. Comparing salary to salary isn't a fair comparison. Comparing "total comp packages" is a better way to go, though it's tough to quantify those in every instance. It's no secret that CBA, particularly in the public sector, tend to go heavy on benefits and light on salary--it's easier to push through to taxpayers the idea that a teacher makes $40k with great benefits than $60k with normal benefits. Public sector employees tend to be beefed up on the benefits as a way to increase their overall comp.

The really tricky thing is putting a number on the intangibles (i.e. reduced risk of being fired, better working hours, more stability, etc.). The private sector is held accountable by the market--if the economy is terrible, private sector wages decrease and people are laid off. As writer noted above, that isn't the same for the public sector: comp goes up even if the economy is tanking because there is no counterbalance. That's what bothers many Americans--the idea that the economy is tanking, people are out of work, salaries are falling, the debt is spiraling out of control, and yet gov't workers complain about having their COLA/overall payscale frozen, despite not having promotions frozen.

A "freeze" in gov't terms isn't the same as a "freeze" in private sector terms (where a freeze or paycut means your salary is staying the same or going down this year compared to last). In gov't terms, a freeze appears to mean your salary will only increase next year at the rate it was projected to if you're promoted, without an additional raise on top.

derek bomar;589911 wrote:I for a fact know I could get a job in the public sector.

yeah, probably the same as you can get one in the private sector.