sherm03;578880 wrote:If you look at as "private schools account for 20% of the total schools and they have won 42% of the titles" then yes, that looks very out of balance.

But when you look at the fact that 34 private schools have won state championships, and 65 public schools have won state championships, it's not that out of balance.

13.8% of ALL Ohio football teams account for ALL of the state championships. A small number of private schools win a lot of titles...and a small number of public schools win a lot of titles. The thought that there is a huge disparity because there aren't that many private schools and they win a lot of titles is just a way to twist stats to support a viewpoint. The reality is, a small percentage of teams...both private and public...are winning all the titles.

Thank you, sherm, you both said what I was trying to get across better than I said it and delivered the data to support it. Absent the occasional syzygy of three future D-I guys who show up randomly in the same kindergarten from time to time, the only way to the last couple weeks of the season is sustained program excellence. It accretes over many years and requires not just players but committed admin, coaches, and parents. Pareto says 80/20 explains a lot of things, but it doesn't explain 100/13.8!! Maybe these guys will be quiet and go ask the coach if there's anything they can do to pitch in to strengthen the program.

TwinTurbo;579051 wrote:u want to rag on private schools, put this one in your pipe and smoke it.


Douglass suspended, football team on probation
Posted by webmaster on July 21 2008
This past Friday, the Ohio High School Athletic Assn passed down a 3 game suspension for Coach Maurice Douglass, and has placed the Trotwood-Madison Rams football team on a two-year probation as part of the punishment in regards to recruiting violations brought against the school and coach Douglass.

news: trotwoodmadison.gifCoach Douglass is prohibited from coaching in practices and games for weeks three, four and five of the regular season.

The penalties against the football program also include the dismissal of assistant coach Jeremy Beckham, and two senior students have been declared ineligible from participating in sports for one year at any school that is a member of the association.

Beckham, who also has coached locally at Northmont and Springfield South, was told last Monday that he was terminated from Trotwood's staff.

"The biggest thing (wrong) is the way they worded (the news release), which is totally false," Beckham said. "The fact is something had to be done on the staff and somebody had to go, and I guess I got the short straw."

The program also was placed on two years’ probation.

The penalties, which followed a seven-month investigation, were agreed to by OHSAA and the school.

The spelling genius seems to have gone silent. Perhaps he is formulating a new theory that the deck is stacked and that only public schools can win. Because they all recruit. And no private school has a chance. Or maybe he has realize that that's the wrong tree up which to bark, and that it's time to back on out and see the forest. Great programs start with great coaches and radiate out from there. A few extra great players in the same year means the season is a game or two longer. The guys that stay home every November and can't figure out why need to work on basics, not trying to catch TM or EC to prove that their mediocrity can be blamed on somebody else. Definitely this kind of thinking is infectious in our country these days and explains a lot of what goes on in politics, but, hey HS football is bigger than that.

Breath in breath out breath in breath out...............

Thinthickbigred;579460 wrote:Breath in breath out breath in breath out...............

Indeed. Refuting silliness is hard work. Not even sure how I got into this thread. Started out trying to see what folks thought Hartley could do after getting past both Ironton and Alter.

Mr./Mrs. Parker, if you are on here looking for perfect spelling and or punctuation, you have your work cut out for you, from the public school boys AND....Surprisingly enough, the Private school boys too.

There have been consistantly 7 private schools in DI for the last 10 years:

Cleveland St. Ignatius
Lakewood St. Edward
Toledo St. John
Cincinnati LaSalle
Cincinnati St. Xavier
Cincinnati Elder
Cincinnati Moeller

A few may have come and gone, like maybe Toledo St. Francis, I don't know for sure, but those 7 have been a constant. Fifty seven percent (57%) have been to the championship game multiple times in the last ten years, and since St. Ed is a prohibitive favorite, lets just jump the gun here and say they win, that will be 70% of the DI championships from 57% of the DI Paroch's....which represent about 5% of the total schools in DI....Public OR Private. And they have represented 50% of the participants.

fish82;578681 wrote:Careful with that reach there, dude. I'd hate to see you tear a rotator cuff.

Where are these "combines" you keep spouting off about? Is it just a NEO thing? I'm curious, since in SWO there ain't no such animal.

These "combines" I've been spouting off about, have been very well documented in the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

Con_Alma;578702 wrote:No combines in NE Ohio either...at least that I know of.

Bingo.

Rocket08;578714 wrote:Skank just makes so much stuff up, he can't even believe what he says most of the time it's so delusional

He's probably out trolling for transfers for WHS as we speak

I told ya once, I ain't doin your homework for ya, YOU have to do it yourself. About a year and a half ago....The Cleveland Plain Dealer....About a 6 or 7 part series....Each more shocking than the next.

I'm quite sure it wouldn't be too hard to archive. I dare ya.

skank;579673 wrote:These "combines" I've been spouting off about, have been very well documented in the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

The really ironic thing is that your school also hosts a combine.

skank;579673 wrote:These "combines" I've been spouting off about, have been very well documented in the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

And if anything was "illegal" don't you think the OHSAA would have put a stop to it. Or are they all in on that big Catholic conspiracy? If you want to point to the findings of the OHSAA against Elyria Catholic then you have to admit that what goes on in these "combines" must be alright.

Al Bundy;579745 wrote:The really ironic thing is that your school also hosts a combine.

The difference you ask? The combine held at Massillon is for colleges to gather information on what, I believe 9th graders through 12th graders? The combine held in Cleveland, (at least the one that was writtin about in the PD), was held for the sole purpose of the Parochials to get a look at incoming freshmen, I believe they did a follow up recently on several of the boys to see how they are doing at their respective schools of choice.

The one at Massillon is run by several different groups of people including HS coaches, college coaches and so forth....The one in Cleveland is held by the coaching staffs of schools like Ignatius, St. Edward, Benedictine, St Joe, etc....

The one at Massillon costs money to participate in, the one in Cleveland is free, (picture a draft of sorts in a pee wee league).

Dean Wormer;579758 wrote:And if anything was "illegal" don't you think the OHSAA would have put a stop to it. Or are they all in on that big Catholic conspiracy? If you want to point to the findings of the OHSAA against Elyria Catholic then you have to admit that what goes on in these "combines" must be alright.

Archive it, see what you think. I bet you're surprised.

And you're right, what they do at these combines MUST NOT be illegal, which I believe is a problem in and of itself.

skank;579673 wrote:These "combines" I've been spouting off about, have been very well documented in the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

I'm sure they have, however a tertiary Google search brings up zilch. Do you recall which schools were specifically mentioned, or I don't suppose you saved a link for a story that you hold so dear to your heart?

I'm just curious, since you're obviously trying to paint the entire private school population with this brush...and like I said, there ain't no such animal in SWO.

skank;579772 wrote:Archive it, see what you think. I bet you're surprised.

And you're right, what they do at these combines MUST NOT be illegal, which I believe is a problem in and of itself.

I remember the article. I read it and so did thousands of other people who read the Plain Dealer. Why is this such a sore subject? If it was legal to drive 85 mph on the freeway would you do it? Sure you would. So don't have a fit about the Cleveland area parochial schools inviting kids to a "combine" which is perfectly legal in every way. Is it wrong for a public school coach to come to a parochial school junior high game and watch the kids play to see if any of them could fit into his program? It happens all the time. You don't hear coach Kyle whining.

fish82;579783 wrote:I'm sure they have, however a tertiary Google search brings up zilch. Do you recall which schools were specifically mentioned, or I don't suppose you saved a link for a story that you hold so dear to your heart?

I'm just curious, since you're obviously trying to paint the entire private school population with this brush...and like I said, there ain't no such animal in SWO.

There may not be such an animal in SWO, but rest assured, there IS an animal down there too. Keep looking, as will I. Believe me, it exists. and I will find it.

Dean Wormer;579793 wrote:I remember the article. I read it and so did thousands of other people who read the Plain Dealer. Why is this such a sore subject? If it was legal to drive 85 mph on the freeway would you do it? Sure you would. So don't have a fit about the Cleveland area parochial schools inviting kids to a "combine" which is perfectly legal in every way. Is it wrong for a public school coach to come to a parochial school junior high game and watch the kids play to see if any of them could fit into his program? It happens all the time. You don't hear coach Kyle whining.

If this is true, about the public school coach, he should be turned in, immediately. That is if he made any contact with the kids.

fish82;579783 wrote:I'm sure they have, however a tertiary Google search brings up zilch. Do you recall which schools were specifically mentioned, or I don't suppose you saved a link for a story that you hold so dear to your heart?

I'm just curious, since you're obviously trying to paint the entire private school population with this brush...and like I said, there ain't no such animal in SWO.

What Skank fails to mention in his unending rant is that the "combine" he refers to was for 8th graders from parochial grade schools in the Cleveland area. Now he wants us to not even attempt to keep our Catholic kids in our own schools.

skank;579579 wrote:Mr./Mrs. Parker, if you are on here looking for perfect spelling and or punctuation, you have your work cut out for you, from the public school boys AND....Surprisingly enough, the Private school boys too.

There have been consistantly 7 private schools in DI for the last 10 years:

Cleveland St. Ignatius
Lakewood St. Edward
Toledo St. John
Cincinnati LaSalle
Cincinnati St. Xavier
Cincinnati Elder
Cincinnati Moeller

A few may have come and gone, like maybe Toledo St. Francis, I don't know for sure, but those 7 have been a constant. Fifty seven percent (57%) have been to the championship game multiple times in the last ten years, and since St. Ed is a prohibitive favorite, lets just jump the gun here and say they win, that will be 70% of the DI championships from 57% of the DI Paroch's....which represent about 5% of the total schools in DI....Public OR Private. And they have represented 50% of the participants.

In D1, 6 private schools account for 23 titles. 9 public schools account for 15 titles. Now some of those schools are no longer in D1, and numbers obviously fluctuate over the years. But we'll say 120 teams on average in D1. That means that 12.5% of the schools account for ALL the titles.

I could skew the stats too just like you did. I could say that the public champions, which represent 7.5% of the total schools in D1...public or private...account for 39% of all the titles. But I wouldn't do that, because that would represent a skewed view of the stats.

Look at the big picture...the same teams are in the championship constantly. Sure a team flairs up once in awhile like Brunswick and Boardman and Glenville and they make it to the championship. But over the history of the division, Princeton, McKinley, Harding, and Hilliard Davidson have all won multiple titles. So don't try to say it's all the private schools.

I'll say it again...the GOOD PROGRAMS, both private and public, continue to do well year in and year out in all divisions.

skank;579579 wrote:Mr./Mrs. Parker, if you are on here looking for perfect spelling and or punctuation, you have your work cut out for you, from the public school boys AND....Surprisingly enough, the Private school boys too.

There have been consistantly 7 private schools in DI for the last 10 years:

Cleveland St. Ignatius
Lakewood St. Edward
Toledo St. John
Cincinnati LaSalle
Cincinnati St. Xavier
Cincinnati Elder
Cincinnati Moeller

A few may have come and gone, like maybe Toledo St. Francis, I don't know for sure, but those 7 have been a constant. Fifty seven percent (57%) have been to the championship game multiple times in the last ten years, and since St. Ed is a prohibitive favorite, lets just jump the gun here and say they win, that will be 70% of the DI championships from 57% of the DI Paroch's....which represent about 5% of the total schools in DI....Public OR Private. And they have represented 50% of the participants.

I have no concept of what you mean about my having my 'work cut out for me.' I don't care aburt ur splng : or puncuariontin!! per-SE; It's just that the way you so deftly combine non-standard usage, "spelling" which sometimes transcends typos and enters a zone where the reader is left wondering what word you were even reaching for, and punctuation which obfuscates rather than elucidates, makes it really hard to follow you sometimes. Now certainly you could argue that you're on an emotional rant, not trying to be logical, but this package of frenzy combined with the poor use of statistics really diminishes your 'case.' (We'll set aside for a moment the likely more germane question of what set you off on a case-building exercise to begin with, what drives the obvious jealousy of the catholic schools, as that no doubt goes into a psychological domain none of us on here are likely qualified to deal with effectively.) Back to your 'statistical analysis' -- you keep making my point, that it is GREAT PROGRAMS that get to play 13, 14, 15 games a year. It is more about that than about catholic or quaker or other christian or tax-supported or farm or city or ethnic composition or anything else. Absent the occasional blessing of a sudden syzygy of D-1 kids in an otherwise unremarkable program, it is about committed, disciplined, and passionate coaches and the concentric rings they systematically build out from them in staffs, volunteers, parents, students, and players. You continue to insult the players and supporters of the schools you mention and even moreso those from places like Kenton and Versailles and Ironton and Valley View and Glenville and Colerain and the rest. Your math is momentarily interesting, until as sherm has pointed out, you could construct a very similar argument to 'prove' (not) that the game is rigged for public schools by listing that a handful-subset of them show up again and again in the playoffs. The fact that Orrville and Alder and Wheelersburg are good lots of years doesn't prove anything about public versus private or north versus south or schools that start with letters in the word "Whoa" or anything else except that Orrville and Alder and Wheelersburg are great programs. Like Ignatius and Moeller and Watterson. I don't what drives your victimhood and schadenfreude. I don't know who you support or what sad story they have of losing to which private school, I'm just not familiar. But you gotta let it go. Spend your energy and 'stats' proving that the trade towers didn't fall or that Barney Frank was born on the moon. The people who support top programs, of all types, wouldn't understand your obsession.

This may sound a bit rash, but I do not believe any private schools should be in divisions 4-6 in football, or 3-4 in basketball and baseball. In these divisions, this is where your small towns are. This is where winning for your town means something. Look at St. Eds, do you think the entire city of Cleveland is going to go crazy about their team winning a State Title? the answer is no, there will be proud parents and alums, but the rest of the city will go about is buisness. Look at DVI, Had Mogadore won last week and then won Friday, what do you think the small town of Mogadore would have been like for the next year? They would have been going nuts, they already do every friday night when not a light will be found on in town on Friday night because everyone is at the game. It is these small towns that lose out because of Private schools. Same thing in DV, do you think the whole town of Youngstown is going to go crazy over Ursuline steamrolling their way to another title? No, because there are 75,000 people in Youngstown, and not all of them are Ursuline fans. Had Hillsdale or Norwayne made it to the title game and won their small 2500 people villages would have went crazy for an entire year celebrating their title. It is the small town villages and cities that lose out because of private schools, that is why they need the multiplier and move them all up at least 2 divisions, I know this won't seem fair to all, but it is a better solution. After all, isn't the reason kids go to private schools for a better education or for a religious education? or is it for the sports?

BuckCrazy;580374 wrote:This may sound a bit rash, but I do not believe any private schools should be in divisions 4-6 in football, or 3-4 in basketball and baseball. In these divisions, this is where your small towns are.

The problem with your "logic" is that there are actually many more private schools in DV and DVI that have losing records. Not having them in the division where they "belong" so that your team and some town can "feel better" and "go crazy" is actually pretty dumb.

The rest of your post makes no sense either

BuckCrazy;580374 wrote:This may sound a bit rash, but I do not believe any private schools should be in divisions 4-6 in football, or 3-4 in basketball and baseball. In these divisions, this is where your small towns are. This is where winning for your town means something. Look at St. Eds, do you think the entire city of Cleveland is going to go crazy about their team winning a State Title? the answer is no, there will be proud parents and alums, but the rest of the city will go about is buisness. Look at DVI, Had Mogadore won last week and then won Friday, what do you think the small town of Mogadore would have been like for the next year? They would have been going nuts, they already do every friday night when not a light will be found on in town on Friday night because everyone is at the game. It is these small towns that lose out because of Private schools. Same thing in DV, do you think the whole town of Youngstown is going to go crazy over Ursuline steamrolling their way to another title? No, because there are 75,000 people in Youngstown, and not all of them are Ursuline fans. Had Hillsdale or Norwayne made it to the title game and won their small 2500 people villages would have went crazy for an entire year celebrating their title. It is the small town villages and cities that lose out because of private schools, that is why they need the multiplier and move them all up at least 2 divisions, I know this won't seem fair to all, but it is a better solution. After all, isn't the reason kids go to private schools for a better education or for a religious education? or is it for the sports?

Similar idea as mine Id like those really competitive schools to play a few divisions up anyway

skank;579579 wrote:Mr./Mrs. Parker, if you are on here looking for perfect spelling and or punctuation, you have your work cut out for you, from the public school boys AND....Surprisingly enough, the Private school boys too.

There have been consistantly 7 private schools in DI for the last 10 years:

Cleveland St. Ignatius
Lakewood St. Edward
Toledo St. John
Cincinnati LaSalle
Cincinnati St. Xavier
Cincinnati Elder
Cincinnati Moeller

A few may have come and gone, like maybe Toledo St. Francis, I don't know for sure, but those 7 have been a constant. Fifty seven percent (57%) have been to the championship game multiple times in the last ten years, and since St. Ed is a prohibitive favorite, lets just jump the gun here and say they win, that will be 70% of the DI championships from 57% of the DI Paroch's....which represent about 5% of the total schools in DI....Public OR Private. And they have represented 50% of the participants.

Publics have met privates in the DI state semi finals 43 times:

Moeller beats
Findlay '75
Whitmer '79
Upper Arlington '80
Upper Arlington '81
Gahanna Lincoln '82
Troy '85
Lima '89
Hilliard '93
Upper Arlington '97

Ignatius beatsWhitmer '88
Massillon '89
Massillon '91
Fitch '92
McKinley '94
Boardman '95
McKinley '96
Pickerington '99
Massillon '01
Hoover '08

OthersSt Ed beats Newark '75
Parma Padua beats Massillon '79
Toledo St. Francis beats Centerville '84
St. Edward beats Fitch '86
St. X beats Piqua '92
St. X beats Upper Arlington '98
St. X beats Dublin Coffman '01
Elder beats Findlay '02
Elder beats Dublin Scioto '03
St. X beats Hilliard Davidson '05
St. X beats Dublin Coffman '07
Elder beats Pick. Central '08
St Edward beats Tol. Whitmer '10

And Publics have won a scant 11 times
Warren beats Moeller '74
Gahanna Lincoln beats St. Edward '76
McKinley beats St. Joe '77
McKinley beats St. Joe '81
Ak. Garfield beats Mentor Lake Cath. '83
McKinley beats St. Joe '85
Lima Sr. beats Elder '96
McKinley beats Ignatius '97
McKinley beats Ignatius '98
Massillon beats St. Edward '05
Hilliard Davidson beats Elder '09

With one school, Canton McKinley winning almost half of them.

That is a .744 winning pct.

Now, since 1985, the Privates hold a 23-5 edge, (.821 winning pct).

Winners in head to head games have been


PrivatesMoeller
St. Edward
Parma Padua
Tol. St. Francis
Ignatius
St. Xavier
Elder

PublicsWarren G. Harding
Gahanna Lincoln
Canton McKinley
Akron Garfield
Lima. Sr.
Massillon
Hilliard Davidson

Seven privates
Seven publics

Despite overwhelming numbers in favor of the publics as far as participation goes.

Alma_Parker;580326 wrote:I have no concept of what you mean about my having my 'work cut out for me.' I don't care aburt ur splng : or puncuariontin!! per-SE; It's just that the way you so deftly combine non-standard usage, "spelling" which sometimes transcends typos and enters a zone where the reader is left wondering what word you were even reaching for, and punctuation which obfuscates rather than elucidates, makes it really hard to follow you sometimes. Now certainly you could argue that you're on an emotional rant, not trying to be logical, but this package of frenzy combined with the poor use of statistics really diminishes your 'case.' (We'll set aside for a moment the likely more germane question of what set you off on a case-building exercise to begin with, what drives the obvious jealousy of the catholic schools, as that no doubt goes into a psychological domain none of us on here are likely qualified to deal with effectively.) Back to your 'statistical analysis' -- you keep making my point, that it is GREAT PROGRAMS that get to play 13, 14, 15 games a year. It is more about that than about catholic or quaker or other christian or tax-supported or farm or city or ethnic composition or anything else. Absent the occasional blessing of a sudden syzygy of D-1 kids in an otherwise unremarkable program, it is about committed, disciplined, and passionate coaches and the concentric rings they systematically build out from them in staffs, volunteers, parents, students, and players. You continue to insult the players and supporters of the schools you mention and even moreso those from places like Kenton and Versailles and Ironton and Valley View and Glenville and Colerain and the rest. Your math is momentarily interesting, until as sherm has pointed out, you could construct a very similar argument to 'prove' (not) that the game is rigged for public schools by listing that a handful-subset of them show up again and again in the playoffs. The fact that Orrville and Alder and Wheelersburg are good lots of years doesn't prove anything about public versus private or north versus south or schools that start with letters in the word "Whoa" or anything else except that Orrville and Alder and Wheelersburg are great programs. Like Ignatius and Moeller and Watterson. I don't what drives your victimhood and schadenfreude. I don't know who you support or what sad story they have of losing to which private school, I'm just not familiar. But you gotta let it go. Spend your energy and 'stats' proving that the trade towers didn't fall or that Barney Frank was born on the moon. The people who support top programs, of all types, wouldn't understand your obsession.

It wasn't MY post you were refering to, but, again, another private school supporter with an 'I'm better than you attitude'. What a surprise.

BuckCrazy;580374 wrote:This may sound a bit rash, but I do not believe any private schools should be in divisions 4-6 in football, or 3-4 in basketball and baseball. In these divisions, this is where your small towns are. This is where winning for your town means something. Look at St. Eds, do you think the entire city of Cleveland is going to go crazy about their team winning a State Title? the answer is no, there will be proud parents and alums, but the rest of the city will go about is buisness. Look at DVI, Had Mogadore won last week and then won Friday, what do you think the small town of Mogadore would have been like for the next year? They would have been going nuts, they already do every friday night when not a light will be found on in town on Friday night because everyone is at the game. It is these small towns that lose out because of Private schools. Same thing in DV, do you think the whole town of Youngstown is going to go crazy over Ursuline steamrolling their way to another title? No, because there are 75,000 people in Youngstown, and not all of them are Ursuline fans. Had Hillsdale or Norwayne made it to the title game and won their small 2500 people villages would have went crazy for an entire year celebrating their title. It is the small town villages and cities that lose out because of private schools, that is why they need the multiplier and move them all up at least 2 divisions, I know this won't seem fair to all, but it is a better solution. After all, isn't the reason kids go to private schools for a better education or for a religious education? or is it for the sports?

Ah yes...those terrible cheating privates in D4-D6!

Those powerhouse killers like Cuyahoga Falls Christian Academy (#13, 6-4 record), Cincinnati Purcell Marian (#30, 1-9 record), Louisville St. Thomas Aquinas (#12, 5-5 record), Cleveland VASJ (#15, 4-6 record), Dayton Christian (#20, 6-4 record), Columbus Bishop Ready (#21, 4-6 record), Warren JFK (#11, 4-6 record), Bedford St. Peter Chanel (#21, 2-7 record), Cleveland Heights Lutheran East (#22, 3-6 record), St. Mary Central Catholic (#26, 1-9 record), Youngstown Christian (#26, 1-9 record), Cardinal Stritch (#18, 4-6 record), Tuscarawas Central Catholic (#16, 4-6 record), Bishop Rosecrans (#23, 3-7 record), Grove City Christian (#23, 3-7 record), St. John Central (#28, 2-8), Steubenville Central Catholic (#27, 1-9 record), Fisher Catholic (#29, 1-9 record), Troy Christian (#14, 4-6 record), and Cincinnati Christian (#29, 1-9 record).

I hate those guys and how they dominate the lower divisions and STEAL all the championships from those hard-working small town teams, like Coldwater, Versailles, St. Henry, and Maria Stein. If those cheating privates weren't in the division those teams could have won WAY MORE than their 17 combined State Championships.

Look at the list my friend. It's the SAME teams year in and year out that make the title game in D4-D6. It's not just the private schools. There's 4 or 5 dominate public schools in those divisions.

So spare me this sob story about the poor little small towns that are getting cheated out of a title because of the big bad private schools. That argument won't fly here.