A question concerning L1 and L2 points...

Home ▸ Archive ▸ High School Football ▸ A question concerning L1 and L2 points...
cruiser_96's avatar

cruiser_96

Senior Member

7,536 posts
Oct 19, 2010 9:02 AM
If Anytown High School beats a team that goes 9-1, that helps their cause, right? And in a big way if I'm not mistaking???

My real question is if AHS loses to a team that goes 1-9, does that hurt their cause??? Along the same lines, would losing to a team that goes 10-0 help or hurt AHS??? In this last two scenarios, Anytown High School would be 8-2...which would have more weight??? A loss to a great team or a loss to a bad team??? Or does losing NEVER help?

I'm trying to figure this points stuff out so I thought I'd go to the experts!
Oct 19, 2010 9:02am
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Oct 19, 2010 9:22 AM
cruiser_96;524839 wrote:If Anytown High School beats a team that goes 9-1, that helps their cause, right? And in a big way if I'm not mistaking???

My real question is if AHS loses to a team that goes 1-9, does that hurt their cause??? Along the same lines, would losing to a team that goes 10-0 help or hurt AHS??? In this last two scenarios, Anytown High School would be 8-2...which would have more weight??? A loss to a great team or a loss to a bad team??? Or does losing NEVER help?

I'm trying to figure this points stuff out so I thought I'd go to the experts!

When you lose you gain nothing. That's the impact.

It doesn't matter if you lose to a 9-1 team or a 1-9 team. You gain nothing.
Oct 19, 2010 9:22am
thePITman's avatar

thePITman

Senior Member

3,867 posts
Oct 19, 2010 9:38 AM
^^ Correct.

When you lose, you gain zero (0) 1st level points. And if you lose, you cannot gain 2nd level points from that team.
(All your defeated opponents' 1st level points are summed together to equal your 2nd level points.)

There are more complicated situations where a forfeit (well, a cancelled game/bye week) could help a team's cause when determine the "average" point ratio, which is the ultimate sorting key for ranking teams in the region... but very rarely does this happen.

If you want to know the formula, here it is (copied from my Excel sheet):

(E2/(C2)+((F2*10)/G2))

where

E2 = Level 1 points (accumulate points by defeating opponents; points awarded by opponent's division: i.e. 5.0 points for beating a D3 team, 5.5 points for a D2 team, etc.)
C2 = Number of games played (normally 10)
F2 = Level 2 points (the Level 1 points of defeated opponents)
G2 = Level 2 divisor (it has something to do with the number of games played by opponents; I just copy from JoeEitel for this field)
Oct 19, 2010 9:38am
reddevil90's avatar

reddevil90

We Will Rise Again!

953 posts
Oct 19, 2010 12:38 PM
Its a matter of using Excel and adding the formula into it! And add the teams that you beat. And the teams that you beat have to win to help you if you lose!! Say you lost to a team that is 0-7 and you are 5-2. And now you are 5-3 you get no 1st level point. but the 5 teams that you beat all won. Now you get level 2 points from all five teams that help you. This happen to campbell a few weeks back with a loss to Salem. we was 5-0 going into the game and in 4Th place. we only fell to 5Th because 4 of those teams won there game to give us level 2 points. and we are now in 3rd cause of the level 2 points and with the last two wins to winning teams. hope that helps. So a loss is a goose egg in level 1 points but if any of the teams you beat win help with level 2 points. just got to hope if you lose at lease one or two of those team you beat wins. cause no points really suck and hurt.
Oct 19, 2010 12:38pm
thePITman's avatar

thePITman

Senior Member

3,867 posts
Oct 19, 2010 1:02 PM
^^ Exactly. When you beat someone, you become their biggest fan the rest of the year (until the postseason begins). When you see a team that's 7-1 but ranked between 6th and 10th in the region, it's because they beat a lot of 0-8 or 1-7 teams that aren't helping them with L2 points (or the region is loaded). That's why beating good teams that are winning games is important.
Oct 19, 2010 1:02pm
E

enigmaax

Senior Member

4,511 posts
Oct 19, 2010 4:48 PM
cruiser_96;524839 wrote:If Anytown High School beats a team that goes 9-1, that helps their cause, right? And in a big way if I'm not mistaking???

My real question is if AHS loses to a team that goes 1-9, does that hurt their cause??? Along the same lines, would losing to a team that goes 10-0 help or hurt AHS??? In this last two scenarios, Anytown High School would be 8-2...which would have more weight??? A loss to a great team or a loss to a bad team??? Or does losing NEVER help?

I'm trying to figure this points stuff out so I thought I'd go to the experts!

If you have to lose a game, you'd rather lose to the 1-9 team than the 9-1 team, especially if the 9-1 team is in your region. The 1-9 team doesn't give you a lost of points, so even though you lost and get zero, the impact isn't as great because you aren't losing out on that many points. Losing to the 9-1 team not only costs you points for the win AND all their second level points, but if that team would then get your points at 2 levels (which if you are 8-2, is a shit ton). Thats kind of a double whammy if its a team in your region.

Regardless of who you lose to, you aren't going to get points for the loss. But losing to a good team costs you much more potential points.
Oct 19, 2010 4:48pm
cruiser_96's avatar

cruiser_96

Senior Member

7,536 posts
Oct 19, 2010 8:46 PM
Thanks for all the posts, guys. I was talking to some co-workers and this was a quesiton I had that we weren't sure on. ALL of this sums it up. Thanks a million. People helping people... gotta love it!

...I know I do.
Oct 19, 2010 8:46pm
reddevil90's avatar

reddevil90

We Will Rise Again!

953 posts
Oct 19, 2010 9:20 PM
Well ThePitMan knows a lot more about it then i do. I just know enough to look at the points and who and what. But i do know if you know how to use excel like my brother then its easy to do it on your own. I dont know excel but he does it for me so i know by Friday night if no games are on saturday who is where. I pay him a few bucks for me to know before Joe brings his out. But i only care about region 13. But if you know how to use it and add the formula that PitMan gave you its easy .
Oct 19, 2010 9:20pm
cruiser_96's avatar

cruiser_96

Senior Member

7,536 posts
Oct 20, 2010 8:09 AM
thePITman... I used your formula for Groveport Madison and came up with 12.71717. Joe Eitel has us with 16 point something. Did I do something wrong???

L1 = 35.5
Games Played = 8
L2 = 116 (This COULD be where the mistake is! ;) )
L2D = 99 (stolen from Joe as you modeled!!!)

Are D-I wins worth 6 points???

D-II - 5.5 points
D-III - 5 points
D-IV - 4.5 points
D-V - 4 points
Oct 20, 2010 8:09am
thePITman's avatar

thePITman

Senior Member

3,867 posts
Oct 20, 2010 8:39 AM
^^ I just did that with a calculator, and it works fine.

35.5 / 8 + (116 * 10) / 99 = 16.1547

L1 / # games played + (L2 * 10) / L2 divisor
Oct 20, 2010 8:39am
cruiser_96's avatar

cruiser_96

Senior Member

7,536 posts
Oct 20, 2010 8:51 AM
No prob... Could it be the above formula... (E2/(C2)+((F2*10)/G2))

I'll figure it out. As I go through life I've learned... It's probably my fault! (Only been married 7 years!!! :D )
Oct 20, 2010 8:51am
cruiser_96's avatar

cruiser_96

Senior Member

7,536 posts
Oct 20, 2010 8:53 AM
Told you it was my fault! I figured it out. Thanks a mill... Yerra peach.
Oct 20, 2010 8:53am
E

enigmaax

Senior Member

4,511 posts
Oct 20, 2010 9:30 AM
thePITman;524858 wrote: G2 = Level 2 divisor (it has something to do with the number of games played by opponents; I just copy from JoeEitel for this field)

This would be the total number of games that will be played by your opponents (by the last week of the regular season). So if all ten of your opponents play ten games, the L2 divisor is 100. If your school only plays nine games, then your maximum L2 divisor is going to be 90. Some teams who play West Virginia schools will end up with a lower L2 divisor because the WV regular season finishes up one week after Ohio, so the last game for those WV opponents doesn't count in the Ohio ratings.
Oct 20, 2010 9:30am
cruiser_96's avatar

cruiser_96

Senior Member

7,536 posts
Oct 20, 2010 9:54 AM
AWESOME info, enigmaax!!! I love me some info...
Oct 20, 2010 9:54am
thePITman's avatar

thePITman

Senior Member

3,867 posts
Oct 20, 2010 9:59 AM
Thanks for the exact clarification, enigmaax. I knew it was something close to that but wasn't sure if it was strictly that or had anything else into it. Thanks!!
Oct 20, 2010 9:59am
Caturdayz's avatar

Caturdayz

Member

95 posts
Oct 20, 2010 4:52 PM
The L2 divisor also goes down if a team you've played plays a team that doesn't take part in OHSAA playoffs. Usually small prep schools or club football teams, like the Columbus Crusaders.

If such a school is on your schedule you don't get any L2 points for any teams they beat, as they don't count in the rankings, but your divisor goes down by 10.
Oct 20, 2010 4:52pm
E

enigmaax

Senior Member

4,511 posts
Oct 20, 2010 5:24 PM
Caturdayz;526256 wrote:The L2 divisor also goes down if a team you've played plays a team that doesn't take part in OHSAA playoffs. Usually small prep schools or club football teams, like the Columbus Crusaders.

If such a school is on your schedule you don't get any L2 points for any teams they beat, as they don't count in the rankings, but your divisor goes down by 10.

That type of game doesn't count against your record or L1 either as far as the OHSAA is concerned. So essentially you aren't helped or penalized by playing such a team - it is just as though you have only played nine games.

Just to clarify, that doesn't apply to all teams don't take part in the OHSAA playoffs. Teams from other states do count as long as their games are finished prior to the end of the Ohio regular season. The difference in that case is that the L2 points you earn are the same as the L1 points for the school you beat, regardless of the size of that school's defeated opponents.

For example if you beat a team who is considered a DI school according to Ohio enrollment guidelines, you get 6.0 L1 points as well as 6.0 L2 points for every team they beat, even if the remainder of their schedule is all small schools. Same thing goes for beating a small school from another state - if they are considered D-VI, you get 3.5 L1 points for beating them and 3.5 L2 points for each of their wins even if the rest of their schedule is all DI size.
Oct 20, 2010 5:24pm
I

icskins

Senior Member

174 posts
Oct 21, 2010 9:11 AM
enigmaax,

You seem to know a lot about this. I have asked this question before and gotten different answers. I emailed Joe Eitel, but he is pretty busy. If a team plays an out of state D1 team and beats them, then that out of state team plays and beats a D6 Ohio team, what points does the first team get? Is it D1 points because it was an out of state team, or does Ohio figure out that the out of state team played a small Ohio team?

Thanks
Oct 21, 2010 9:11am
E

enigmaax

Senior Member

4,511 posts
Oct 21, 2010 10:29 AM
icskins;527134 wrote:enigmaax,

You seem to know a lot about this. I have asked this question before and gotten different answers. I emailed Joe Eitel, but he is pretty busy. If a team plays an out of state D1 team and beats them, then that out of state team plays and beats a D6 Ohio team, what points does the first team get? Is it D1 points because it was an out of state team, or does Ohio figure out that the out of state team played a small Ohio team?

Thanks

My understanding is that it would be D1 points regardless of the opponent.
Oct 21, 2010 10:29am
thePITman's avatar

thePITman

Senior Member

3,867 posts
Oct 21, 2010 10:34 AM
This is all great stuff. Thanks for the info.
Oct 21, 2010 10:34am
I

icskins

Senior Member

174 posts
Oct 21, 2010 2:52 PM
Thank you. That was my understanding as well, but some people disagreed with me. The OHSAA website is very vague.

That is one of my biggest problems with playing out of state teams. It is unfair in the points, whether you are playing up or playing down.
Oct 21, 2010 2:52pm
E

enigmaax

Senior Member

4,511 posts
Oct 21, 2010 4:50 PM
icskins;527540 wrote:Thank you. That was my understanding as well, but some people disagreed with me. The OHSAA website is very vague.

That is one of my biggest problems with playing out of state teams. It is unfair in the points, whether you are playing up or playing down.

Yeah, talk to some of those teams that played Canadians. Those are basically club teams with large enrollments and count just the same as well.

I noticed the OHSAA site greatly reduced their explanation/examples. I used to have a printed copy somewhere (probably from like 1980), but I couldn't find one as detailed in a quick search. I'm nearly 100% certain on that, though, as a lot of my local teams play WV schools.
Oct 21, 2010 4:50pm