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Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Oct 13, 2010 10:35 AM
thedynasty1998;518163 wrote:That's what someone would study at the college level. I'm not saying geography and history are not important, but there is a reason that China is surpassing us economically and it's because of the innovation and focus on the math and sciences being taught over there.

Maybe we can agree to disagree, but I don't think a history teacher has the same value as a math teacher, although that's obviously not how the current system is setup.
I completely agree with this, but that is how the union sets their negotiations. There are few professions where the type of practice doesn't play a role in compensation. A surgery specialist certainly is compensated more than a pediatrician. An M&A attorney who handles billion dollar deals gets compensated more than an insurance defense attorney. Yet in education, a math teacher capable of teaching college level calculus and even up to Diff EQ gets compensated the same as an elementary gym teacher.

That doesn't mean that pediatricians, insurance defense attorneys, and elementary gym teachers aren't important, but it means that other members of their profession have unique and more valuable skills that should be compensated more. But in education, it isn't....and IMO it hurts the effectiveness of public schools.
Oct 13, 2010 10:35am
FatHobbit's avatar

FatHobbit

Senior Member

8,651 posts
Oct 13, 2010 10:47 AM
I disagree that math and science teachers should automatically make more than other teachers. I've had bad math teachers, but that subject was always much easier for me. I did not ever really appreciate foreign language classes, history or english. (I'm sure there are more, but that's what comes to mind now) But a few of my teachers in those subjects were really good and they were able to inspire me. They should definitely be paid more than my 8th grade algebra teacher who was incapable of showing me ANYTHING beyond the examples in the book. A good teacher in any subject IMO is worth more than a bad teacher in math or science.
Oct 13, 2010 10:47am
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Oct 13, 2010 10:52 AM
^^^

Good point, but if we pay math teachers more, perhaps your school would have recruited a more competent teacher. With the current salary structure, all of the super-qualified math/science teachers go into other pursuits.
Oct 13, 2010 10:52am
FatHobbit's avatar

FatHobbit

Senior Member

8,651 posts
Oct 13, 2010 10:57 AM
Manhattan Buckeye;518189 wrote:^^^

Good point, but if we pay math teachers more, perhaps your school would have recruited a more competent teacher. With the current salary structure, all of the super-qualified math/science teachers go into other pursuits.

I had some really good math teachers. I just don't think they should get paid more by default. I also think there are different skill sets for motivating a class full of high school kids to learn math than there are for the people who go into other pursuits.
Oct 13, 2010 10:57am
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Oct 13, 2010 11:01 AM
I don't disagree, but if the underlying subject requires more valuable skills, I think it should be compensated accordingly.

At any rate, it wouldn't happen anytime soon, the teachers' unions would fight such a structure to the bitter end. There a lot more elementary school teachers than there are HS math/science teachers able to teach at the collegiate level. But I do believe this is one of the reasons why our public schools suffer.
Oct 13, 2010 11:01am
FatHobbit's avatar

FatHobbit

Senior Member

8,651 posts
Oct 13, 2010 11:07 AM
Manhattan Buckeye;518193 wrote:I don't disagree, but if the underlying subject requires more valuable skills, I think it should be compensated accordingly.
I'm not sure why everyone thinks math and science are so much more important than all the other subjects that are being taught. What exactly is the goal of a public education?
Oct 13, 2010 11:07am
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Oct 13, 2010 11:08 AM
Manhattan Buckeye;518193 wrote:But I do believe this is one of the reasons why our public schools suffer.

Is this the general consensus? Do ALL public schools suffer? I won't disagree that there are some that do, but do ALL? To often we generalize all education together b/c of some poor districts.
Oct 13, 2010 11:08am
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Oct 13, 2010 11:09 AM
FatHobbit;518199 wrote:What exactly is the goal of a public education?

To create a well-rounded student.
Oct 13, 2010 11:09am
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Oct 13, 2010 11:10 AM
On a side note... I'm really starting to hate my avatar. Thanks Justin Incredible. I can't even take myself seriously with this stupid thing.
Oct 13, 2010 11:10am
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Oct 13, 2010 11:16 AM
ernest_t_bass;518201 wrote:Is this the general consensus? Do ALL public schools suffer? I won't disagree that there are some that do, but do ALL? To often we generalize all education together b/c of some poor districts.

I don't know if it is consensus, but the more I think about it the public school I attended in Ohio was pretty bad. We had no AP courses. Our HS math teacher is a friend, a neighbor of my parents and goes to church with my parents, so I'm not going to bash him because I really believe he was a good teacher - but even if we offered calculus, I'm not sure he could teach it.

In 2010 there is no reason why ALL public schools can't offer two years of college level math (on a semester basis, 3 semesters of Calc, Diff EQ and maybe even Linear), the kids are smart enough to learn it. but there seems to be a lack of willing and capable teachers. Other subjects are important, but to be honest the vast majority of my public schooling was regurgitation, regurgitation, repetition, repetition, etc.
Oct 13, 2010 11:16am
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Oct 13, 2010 11:21 AM
Man Buck... By what you are saying, you are right... that sounds like a bad system. But I will ask this... how did you turn out?
Oct 13, 2010 11:21am
thedynasty1998's avatar

thedynasty1998

Senior Member

6,844 posts
Oct 13, 2010 11:25 AM
The US education system is suffering, and yes, that is the consensus, when compared to China and other highly developed countries.

As for the example that FatHobbit used with his own personal math teachers, that's exactly why teachers should be paid based upon performance. The best teachers (your foreign language teacher) should get paid more if they are better than your math teacher, but again, that's not how it's setup.
Oct 13, 2010 11:25am
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Oct 13, 2010 11:35 AM
thedynasty1998;518211 wrote:The US education system is suffering, and yes, that is the consensus, when compared to China and other highly developed countries.

Link? Proof? I, like you, have heard this as well. Can you show me the comparison? Also, with that comparison, can you show me proof that these other countries test just the same that we do. Can you show me that these other countries focus their dollars on ALL students, just like we do? Can you show me that other countries pour TONS of money into special education, probably more so that gifted education?

Again... let ME tell YOU how to sell a house.
Oct 13, 2010 11:35am
Pick6's avatar

Pick6

A USA American

14,946 posts
Oct 13, 2010 12:06 PM
ernest_t_bass;518150 wrote:What makes History "not hard to teach?" Just curious. (I teach Econ and Accounting, so by your standards, I'm in the clear :) )

(Before anyone says it... we have PSAT's today, so I have more free time than normal)

kind of like dynasty said, history is more of a read and memorize class. The ones I listed, you can't just read and learn. You have to do work to learn as well.
Oct 13, 2010 12:06pm
thedynasty1998's avatar

thedynasty1998

Senior Member

6,844 posts
Oct 13, 2010 12:33 PM
ernest_t_bass;518224 wrote:Link? Proof? I, like you, have heard this as well. Can you show me the comparison? Also, with that comparison, can you show me proof that these other countries test just the same that we do. Can you show me that these other countries focus their dollars on ALL students, just like we do? Can you show me that other countries pour TONS of money into special education, probably more so that gifted education?

Again... let ME tell YOU how to sell a house.
Article from 19 months ago:
The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development places the United States 18th among the 36 nations examined, USA Today reported Wednesday.

"The United States has rested on its laurels way too long," Jacob Funk Kirkegaard of the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington, told USA Today. "Other countries have increasingly caught up and surpassed the United States."

"We've been asleep for a good number of years as a country," says Richard Freeman, an economics professor at Harvard. "It's not that we're doing horrible. But the other guys are moving faster."

There's some proof for you.

No, I don't know what the tests were, but there are a few published statements.

Also, don't get so defensive. When you work for in the public sector, you are going to be more heavily scrutinized. And I appreciate the house comment, but I am not a sales agent.
Oct 13, 2010 12:33pm
G

Gblock

Oct 13, 2010 12:45 PM
thedynasty1998;518252 wrote:Article from 19 months ago:
The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development places the United States 18th among the 36 nations examined, USA Today reported Wednesday.

"The United States has rested on its laurels way too long," Jacob Funk Kirkegaard of the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington, told USA Today. "Other countries have increasingly caught up and surpassed the United States."

"We've been asleep for a good number of years as a country," says Richard Freeman, an economics professor at Harvard. "It's not that we're doing horrible. But the other guys are moving faster."

There's some proof for you.

No, I don't know what the tests were, but there are a few published statements.

Also, don't get so defensive. When you work for in the public sector, you are going to be more heavily scrutinized. And I appreciate the house comment, but I am not a sales agent.


thats not proof at all.....in china all kids dont even go to school past jr. high if at all and they only include their best in brightest in their test scores.......there are other countries that have surpassed us but they also go to school year round for longer hours including saturdays....try selling that to the american public..
Oct 13, 2010 12:45pm
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Gblock

Oct 13, 2010 12:53 PM
btw i have to lol at those who use phrases like "when i was in school" or "i had a teacher once" , and base all their judgments on schools from 20+ years ago. I also had teachers or coaches who didnt do much. they wouldnt last long in most districts now. In most urban districts classrooms are under more scrutiny than ever and are being visited on a weekly basis. i dont know how they do it in rural areas. schools just like everything else in this country have undergone lots of improvements. what they expect kids to know is drastically increased from what we were taught and at an earlier age.

and there is a lot more rigorous instruction since the onset of state testing. go out and visit a school and a math class nowadays. i bet most on here couldnt pass the middle school ohio achievement test let alone the OGT.
Oct 13, 2010 12:53pm
thedynasty1998's avatar

thedynasty1998

Senior Member

6,844 posts
Oct 13, 2010 12:54 PM
Obama: ‘Money without reform’ won’t fix U.S. education system
Recent world rankings showing U.S. students failing to make the grade in math and science are “a sign of long-term decline,” that will require reform of the country’s education system to fix, President Obama told NBC’s “Today” show on Monday.

Obama: Money alone can’t fix broken education system
Money alone can’t fix the problems in public education. Speaking on NBC’s “Today” show Obama focused on education, calling for a longer school year, more emphasis in math and science instruction.
With your political views of Obama aside, he obviously feels like the math and sciences are more important and that we are lacking.

And I don't know how my previous post didn't provide some proof. It's a world ranking.
Oct 13, 2010 12:54pm
G

Gblock

Oct 13, 2010 12:55 PM
the organization for economic cooperation and development......LOL
Oct 13, 2010 12:55pm
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Oct 13, 2010 12:59 PM
" i bet most on here couldnt pass the middle school ohio achievement test let alone the OGT."

Please tell me that wasn't a serious comment. Hell, my sister in law just took and aced an econ summer class at one of the most revered universities in the country. I think she studied maybe 2 hours a week. We've diluted education to the point where we give credit just for showing up. Her father and I were both surprised at the lack of work needed to get an A.

And FWIW, most folks pay attention to pulic schools, whether they attended 30, 20, 10 years or a year ago. The HS I attended still doesn't offer calculus. It is pathetic.
Oct 13, 2010 12:59pm
G

Gblock

Oct 13, 2010 1:01 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;518286 wrote:" i bet most on here couldnt pass the middle school ohio achievement test let alone the OGT."

Please tell me that wasn't a serious comment. Hell, my sister in law just took and aced an econ summer class at one of the most revered universities in the country. I think she studied maybe 2 hours a week. We've diluted education to the point where we give credit just for showing up. Her father and I were both surprised at the lack of work needed to get an A.

And FWIW, most folks pay attention to pulic schools, whether they attended 30, 20, 10 years or a year ago. The HS I attended still doesn't offer calculus. It is pathetic.

have you ever seen it?

also college is different....they dont make money if they fail you in the class...they want you to keep taking classes...my masters was twice as easy to get as my undergrad
Oct 13, 2010 1:01pm
thedynasty1998's avatar

thedynasty1998

Senior Member

6,844 posts
Oct 13, 2010 1:05 PM
Gblock;518281 wrote:the organization for economic cooperation and development......LOL

You're an idiot
Oct 13, 2010 1:05pm
G

Gblock

Oct 13, 2010 1:06 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;518286 wrote:" i bet most on here couldnt pass the middle school ohio achievement test let alone the OGT."



And FWIW, most folks pay attention to pulic schools, whether they attended 30, 20, 10 years or a year ago. The HS I attended still doesn't offer calculus. It is pathetic.

and my point was not what type of school they pay attention to but rather basing their judgements on old outdated information....thats like basing my opinion about cellphones off of my first cellphone...not a great comparison
Oct 13, 2010 1:06pm
G

Gblock

Oct 13, 2010 1:06 PM
thedynasty1998;518294 wrote:You're an idiot

just sayin
Oct 13, 2010 1:06pm
thedynasty1998's avatar

thedynasty1998

Senior Member

6,844 posts
Oct 13, 2010 1:11 PM
Gblock;518297 wrote:just sayin

What is wrong with that organization? Why exactly do you not consider them credible?
Oct 13, 2010 1:11pm