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redstreak one's avatar

redstreak one

Senior Member

1,152 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:10 PM
Cultural facilities commission State employees.

http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/state-salary
Nov 16, 2010 1:10pm
redstreak one's avatar

redstreak one

Senior Member

1,152 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:11 PM
Jobs and family services Ohio.

http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/state-salary
Nov 16, 2010 1:11pm
redstreak one's avatar

redstreak one

Senior Member

1,152 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:12 PM
Jobs and family services Ohio
Ohio arts council.

http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/state-salary

Sorry, I thought these links took you straight to the list. You have to choose from the drag down bar. My point being is, look through some of these salaries, I think why most yell about teachers is that we have all been involved with either a very bad or average teacher in our experiences. How many on the Ohio arts council have you met? lol
Nov 16, 2010 1:12pm
F

fan_from_texas

Senior Member

2,693 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:12 PM
I'm not suggesting that we cut teacher pay. For levels of education, intellect, experience, hours worked, etc., the overall comp package seems fairly competitive--I'm considering things like days off, benefits, decent job protection, general level of prestige, etc. part of the overall "comp package."

In my mind, the market is a good indicator of whether a particular profession is overpaid or underpaid. E.g., assuming perfect information, we'd expect a relationship between the number of people entering the field, and the overall comp package. I know lots of people who want to be teachers--it seems as though there is a huge oversupply right now. This suggests to me that either (1) there is bad information, such that people drastically overestimate how good teachers have it, and thus people want to be teachers, or (2) teachers are paid pretty competitively with the private sector, given their overall skillset. I'm inclined to think the answer is (2)--teachers do pretty well, considering the overall comp package.

I don't propose cutting teacher pay. If anything, I propose raising it by tying it into a merit-based approach that every other industry uses. No need to debate this now (as we've done it a dozen times on other threads), but I'd prefer that we pay the best teachers more and eliminate the underperformers.
Nov 16, 2010 1:12pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:15 PM
WebFire;560829 wrote:Sure.

Tutoring is structured, additional instruction to a curriculum, outside of normal instruction.

A struggling student asking for help is, "Hey Mr. Smith, I don't quite understand today's lesson. Can you help me?"
Thanks.

In the context of the above conversation I got that the kids that were being discussed fit into your explanation of struggling.

I misinterpreted that. I know at the school my children attend if you are struggling with a class you can come to the tutoring center before school, after school or during study hall or lunch.

Maybe that's where I made my mistake.

Thanks again.
Nov 16, 2010 1:15pm
G

Gblock

Nov 16, 2010 1:15 PM
furthermore blaming teachers because we are paid by tax dollars is like me blaming lawyers who drive up insurance rates with bogus lawsuits and tactics that get inflated judgments and drive up prices of everything we buy and services we use. For example i used to teach special ed and there are lawyers who go around to public schools and examine iep's for errors. the error could be as simple as a misspelled word or a missing signature or a mislabled date. they then contact the parent and convince them to sue the district. the district then in turn doesnt try to fight them they pay out about 10000 a piece. In fact there is no one harmed by any of these errors and yet you have someone getting paid. my friend who is a personal injury lawyer brags every day about the ways he gets big judgments for clients from insurance companies who sometimes dont deserve them. this also costs taxpayers. so if your out to help the taxpayers try cleaning up the government/insurace and others before you want me to take a pay cut
Nov 16, 2010 1:15pm
W

wkfan

Senior Member

1,641 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:22 PM
fan_from_texas;560837 wrote:I'd prefer that we pay the best teachers more and eliminate the underperformers.
This.
Nov 16, 2010 1:22pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:29 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;560752 wrote:If reality is simple, then yes I'm simple.

What's your suggestion to make it more complex?

If you are an associate at a law firm, and business sucks (as it has for closing on 3 years) and HR tells you that everyone is taking a 10% pay cut, what would be your reaction?

It is take it or leave it. It happened to me twice, and I left both times because I had other opportunities. If I tried to "fight the system" they'd tell me to pound sand.

This is reality in the private sector. The term "rat race" was borne for a reason.

The situation you gave is completely different from what I am talking about.

Say your employer asks you to do something "extra." You enjoy your job, so you say yes. And then you say yes some more. After a while, your boss realizes that you are a push over and starts throwing more and more stuff at you, b/c he/she KNOWS you can't say no. Well, eventually, you catch on, and realize your boss is taking advantage of you.
Nov 16, 2010 1:29pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:30 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;560771 wrote:This thread wasn't about jealousy. It was about whether teachers were overpaid or underpaid.

People, namely Scarlett Buckeye, Dynasty, FFT and myself are explaining how the private sector works, if you want to learn more about it read the posts and ask questions. Jealousy doesn't enter into the picture.

If this thread were solely about teacher pay, why does a comparison of the private sector need to be brought up as justification, etc.? It is because that is your argument to refute. Jealousy is simply an argument, in an argumentative thread.
Nov 16, 2010 1:30pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:43 PM
thedynasty1998;560791 wrote:But when a student needs your help, they should make themselves available.

Should, but only in a perfect world. Contractual terms actually do mean something to some people, and they are there for a reason. There is a huge difference between "should" and "have to."

You HAVE TO pay taxes.
You SHOULD donate to charity.

If you choose to dismiss yourself from either of the above situations, only one can get you into "trouble."
Nov 16, 2010 1:43pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:47 PM
Scarlet_Buckeye;560805 wrote:The rest of society is out there taking severe pay cuts and suffering severe benefit losses and teachers are STILL unwilling to do the same at taxpayer's expense.

Where is your data on this, that "teachers are unwilling to do this?"
Nov 16, 2010 1:47pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:50 PM
Scarlet_Buckeye;560805 wrote:This is reality to all you teachers who feel entitled to MORE.

Again... Data?
Nov 16, 2010 1:50pm
redfalcon's avatar

redfalcon

Senior Member

1,088 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:51 PM
Indeed.
Nov 16, 2010 1:51pm
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:52 PM
ernest_t_bass;560863 wrote:If this thread were solely about teacher pay, why does a comparison of the private sector need to be brought up as justification, etc.? It is because that is your argument to refute. Jealousy is simply an argument, in an argumentative thread.


Because it is exactly that. A comparison. How else would we judge teachers' compensation? Do market forces not exist in the public teacher comp world?

And its not about pay, its about job security and benefits. How many times have you entered a classroom on a Friday knowing that it is likely you or one of your co-workers might get laid off? I'm guessing not often. That is the reality in the private sector. 4th quarter '08-1st quarter '09 was the nadir of my career. Every Friday I saw a friend and co-worker get the axe - and each Friday it could have easily been me. How much money do you place on not having to deal with that?

Jealousy has nothing to do with it, the teachers posting here obviously clueless about how the real world (i.e. the taxpayers paying your salary and pension) works is more of an issue. You guys aren't making a good argument for yourselves. Really.
Nov 16, 2010 1:52pm
thedynasty1998's avatar

thedynasty1998

Senior Member

6,844 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:54 PM
Do we really need data to justify teachers are unwilling to take a pay cut? Get serious.
Nov 16, 2010 1:54pm
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:55 PM
ernest_t_bass;560858 wrote:The situation you gave is completely different from what I am talking about.

Say your employer asks you to do something "extra." You enjoy your job, so you say yes. And then you say yes some more. After a while, your boss realizes that you are a push over and starts throwing more and more stuff at you, b/c he/she KNOWS you can't say no. Well, eventually, you catch on, and realize your boss is taking advantage of you.

I don't know what you are talking about.

'Extra' is expected in the private sector. My wife is going to Jersey tomorrow morning. Her employer didn't ask her if we had dog/kid sitters in place, it wasn't an option. This is what you do. I don't want her to go to Jersey. It wasn't in her 'contract.' But this is how things work. Where the work is, you do it. Certainly her company foots the bill for her travel expenses and hotel, but she doesn't get paid overtime or get a cookie because she's away from her family for a few days.

That is reality - public school teachers seem to not understand this.
Nov 16, 2010 1:55pm
redfalcon's avatar

redfalcon

Senior Member

1,088 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:59 PM
Then would you please clarify as to how YOUR real world works? You assume that we went straight from college to education. I worked in drywall as a laborer to help me pay for college for over 4 years, I've had other jobs.

DON'T sit there and tell me my job isn't "real world," and act as if you understand everything about our profession.
Nov 16, 2010 1:59pm
redfalcon's avatar

redfalcon

Senior Member

1,088 posts
Nov 16, 2010 1:59 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;560887 wrote:Because it is exactly that. A comparison. How else would we judge teachers' compensation? Do market forces not exist in the public teacher comp world?

And its not about pay, its about job security and benefits. How many times have you entered a classroom on a Friday knowing that it is likely you or one of your co-workers might get laid off? I'm guessing not often. That is the reality in the private sector. 4th quarter '08-1st quarter '09 was the nadir of my career. Every Friday I saw a friend and co-worker get the axe - and each Friday it could have easily been me. How much money do you place on not having to deal with that?

Jealousy has nothing to do with it, the teachers posting here obviously clueless about how the real world (i.e. the taxpayers paying your salary and pension) works is more of an issue. You guys aren't making a good argument for yourselves. Really.

Then would you please clarify as to how YOUR real world works? You assume that we went straight from college to education. I worked in drywall as a laborer to help me pay for college for over 4 years, I've had other jobs.

DON'T sit there and tell me my job isn't "real world," and act as if you understand everything about our profession.
Nov 16, 2010 1:59pm
G

Gblock

Nov 16, 2010 2:00 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;560894 wrote:I don't know what you are talking about.

'Extra' is expected in the private sector. My wife is going to Jersey tomorrow morning. Her employer didn't ask her if we had dog/kid sitters in place, it wasn't an option. This is what you do. I don't want her to go to Jersey. It wasn't in her 'contract.' But this is how things work. Where the work is, you do it. Certainly her company foots the bill for her travel expenses and hotel, but she doesn't get paid overtime or get a cookie because she's away from her family for a few days.

That is reality - public school teachers seem to not understand this.

she should get a contract
Nov 16, 2010 2:00pm
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Nov 16, 2010 2:02 PM
Gblock;560898 wrote:she should get a contract
Indeed. Unfortunately she doesn't have that bargaining power. And if even if she did - they could buy her out.

Again, how many teachers here saw someone being laid off?

I'm really curious, I can assure you it is an overrated experience coming back from lunch and seeing the person next door to you in tears cleaning out the office.
Nov 16, 2010 2:02pm
G

Gblock

Nov 16, 2010 2:05 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;560887 wrote:Because it is exactly that. A comparison. How else would we judge teachers' compensation? Do market forces not exist in the public teacher comp world?

And its not about pay, its about job security and benefits. How many times have you entered a classroom on a Friday knowing that it is likely you or one of your co-workers might get laid off? I'm guessing not often. That is the reality in the private sector. 4th quarter '08-1st quarter '09 was the nadir of my career. Every Friday I saw a friend and co-worker get the axe - and each Friday it could have easily been me. How much money do you place on not having to deal with that?

Jealousy has nothing to do with it, the teachers posting here obviously clueless about how the real world (i.e. the taxpayers paying your salary and pension) works is more of an issue. You guys aren't making a good argument for yourselves. Really.


actually last year our district cut 53 teachers.....3 years ago 142....we have cut 412 or so since 2002(roughly). also when the economy gets better are people going to then say we should get more pay? i dont think so. i have a great understanding of the "real world" but i just dont think if you cut our salaries anymore i would be able to continue to do what i do and i dont think you would attract and retain people worth teaching your children.

since 1997 our district has eliminated 1052 positions
Nov 16, 2010 2:05pm
redfalcon's avatar

redfalcon

Senior Member

1,088 posts
Nov 16, 2010 2:07 PM
And you don't think I am expected to do extra???

I am required to tutor any student for however long it takes, for no additional pay. I also have to go to staff meetings which start well nefore the normal school day at least once a week, I don't get anything extra for those. I have to go to IEP and parent meetings which are NEVER during my normal school hours, for no extra pay. I don't have a choice in these issues, I just have to do it.

In January, I have to go to Cody, Wyoming, a nine hour drive from where I am. I'll be there for four days for a conference. Sure, my lodging is provided, as is the gas, but I don't get a choice or a pet sitter either, so I don't understand your argument.

You don't seem to understand that more often than not, we do the same shit that you are describing.
Nov 16, 2010 2:07pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Nov 16, 2010 2:07 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;560887 wrote:Jealousy has nothing to do with it, the teachers posting here obviously clueless about how the real world (i.e. the taxpayers paying your salary and pension) works is more of an issue. You guys aren't making a good argument for yourselves. Really.

Either that, or you are failing to see our "argument." I really don't think that any teacher on here is arguing about their PAY (which is the intention of this thread... correct?).

I am a teacher. I get certain benefits. WHAT. DO. YOU. WANT. ME. TO. DO. ABOUT. IT?

Do you want me to give all my benefits back?
Nov 16, 2010 2:07pm
redfalcon's avatar

redfalcon

Senior Member

1,088 posts
Nov 16, 2010 2:08 PM
The district to the north of mine riffed 15 teachers last year. This is a district that had less than 100 teachers grades K-12 before the riff. Some of them had tenure. One of them was a friend of mine.

I've seen it.
Nov 16, 2010 2:08pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Nov 16, 2010 2:08 PM
thedynasty1998;560889 wrote:Do we really need data to justify teachers are unwilling to take a pay cut? Get serious.

Yes, if you are going to use it in an "argument." So I can just start stating things, propose them as facts, then say... "do you really need data?"
Nov 16, 2010 2:08pm