FatHobbit
Posts: 8,651
Sep 8, 2010 12:12pm
I'm bored at work and having a religious discussion with a coworker. He claims that it's in the Koran that Muslims must kill all infidels. I googled it, and I can't find anything that's not a bunch of biased crap one way or the other. I basically find all Muslims are better than christians or all christians are better than muslims. So I thought I would ask someone who has actually read it. Does it say that Muslims must kill all infidels in the Koran?
ptown_trojans_1
Posts: 7,632
Sep 8, 2010 12:31pm
Yes and no.
One of the problems in the Qur'an is sometimes it contradicts itself. In some sections it mentions living together and respecting the people of the book and in other sections it says not exactly killing, but not accepting them as true believers or something like that.
But, some sections, which today are taken to mean Christians were originally taken to mean idol worshipers in Mecca and Mohammad was in exile in Medina. War against the infidels was originally idol worships who exiled Mohammad and took over the Kaaba. Some passages while he was in exile make reference to that. Once, Mohammad took over Mecca, then the passages change their tone.
I don't have the passages on me, in my notes back at home. But, another thing that people fail to realize when reading the Qur'an is that it is not in chronological order. The suras (chapters) are arranged by length, not when they were received, and that was due to grammar and the Umayyaids wanting it that way for some reason in the 800s I think. So, sometimes the context of a passage is lost when reading the sura.
What gets lost is the historic context of when the suras were revealed and now the radicals take that out of context and spin to their advantage.
The best translation to me is the AJ Arberry text.
http://www.mlivo.com/translations/Arberry.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Koran_Interpreted
http://www.amazon.com/Koran-Interpreted-Translation-J-Arberry/dp/0684825074
Hope that helps.
One of the problems in the Qur'an is sometimes it contradicts itself. In some sections it mentions living together and respecting the people of the book and in other sections it says not exactly killing, but not accepting them as true believers or something like that.
But, some sections, which today are taken to mean Christians were originally taken to mean idol worshipers in Mecca and Mohammad was in exile in Medina. War against the infidels was originally idol worships who exiled Mohammad and took over the Kaaba. Some passages while he was in exile make reference to that. Once, Mohammad took over Mecca, then the passages change their tone.
I don't have the passages on me, in my notes back at home. But, another thing that people fail to realize when reading the Qur'an is that it is not in chronological order. The suras (chapters) are arranged by length, not when they were received, and that was due to grammar and the Umayyaids wanting it that way for some reason in the 800s I think. So, sometimes the context of a passage is lost when reading the sura.
What gets lost is the historic context of when the suras were revealed and now the radicals take that out of context and spin to their advantage.
The best translation to me is the AJ Arberry text.
http://www.mlivo.com/translations/Arberry.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Koran_Interpreted
http://www.amazon.com/Koran-Interpreted-Translation-J-Arberry/dp/0684825074
Hope that helps.
FatHobbit
Posts: 8,651
Sep 8, 2010 12:38pm
Thanks!
Belly35
Posts: 9,716
Sep 9, 2010 9:37am
'Ideology of Pakistan', Mufti Rafi Usmani sahab mentioned that 'Nowhere in the Qur'an or Ahadeeth, you will find Islam being mentioned as a religion. It is always mentioned as Deen. Deen means a complete way of life, whereas religion is a set of laws limited to worshipping etc.
1. Religion of Islam …..is not a religion, not mention in the Qur’an as a religion no where to be found
Deen is mention but taken as a comprehensive system of life and not a religion
Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Al-Imran, (Verse 19), what can be translated as, "The deen before Allah (accepted by Allah) is Islam". He also says in surat Al-Mae’dah, (Verse 3), what can be translated as, "Today, I have completed your deen, and have completed my bliss upon you and accepted for you Islam as a deen." He also says in surat Al-Imran, (Verse 85), what can be translated as, "Whosoever seeks, other than Islam, a deen, it will not be accepted from him and he, in the Hereafter, is among the losers."
The word deen and the word Islam were mentioned in these verses and in many others in the Qur’an. These two words are two of the most important words in the life of the Muslims, because the guidance, success in this life and in the Hereafter depends on two things: Understanding the meaning of these two words (deen and Islam), and applying this meaning in life.
Our understanding for these two words got weak because of our weakness in the Arabic language with which Qur’an was revealed. As a result, we repeat these two words (deen and Islam) with the tongues without understanding them except for a few people who could understand them as they should be understood. So, it is impossible to apply their meanings in our lives, despite our insistence on belonging to the deen and specifically to Islam.
What is the meaning of the word deen and the word Islam?
To answer this question, it is a must that we refer to the Arabic language dictionaries which still keep the meaning of how the Arabs used to understand the word deen and the word Islam when Qur’an was being revealed. In that period of time, there was no problem with understanding these two words by the Arabs from whom the companions of the prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) came. That generation that transformed the understanding for these two words into reality in their individual and collective lives. As a result, this understanding led them to the guidance, the guidance of Islam. This change was the greatest change in the long history of mankind.
The concept of deen: The word deen is used in the Arabic language to give different meanings, most importantly are:
1. Subjugation, Authority, Ruling and Having Charge
A. He subjugated people to obey. Subjugated here is a literal translation of the verb of the word deen.
B. He has authority over him. Has authority here is a literal translation of the verb of the word deen. In this context, the saying of the prophet (S.A.W.) reveals this meaning, "The intelligent person is the one who has authority over himself and works for the Hereafter" This means that the intelligent person is the one who has subjugated himself and made himself obedient to Allah. In this context, also, the past participle would be subjugated, ruled and submitted. For example, Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Al-Waqe’ah, (Verse 86 & 87), what can be translated as, "If you are not subjugated, then return it if you are truthful". This means, if you are not forced by the will of Allah in the issues of death and life, then return the soul to the body after it has left it due to death.
2. Obedience and Submission due to Subjugation:
3. The Method and the Habit:
4. Punishment, Reward and Judgment: The Arabs had a saying, which implies the following: you are treated the same way you treat others.
These four linguistic meanings constitute the concept of the word deen in the Qur’an where it implies a comprehensive system of life that is composed of four parts:
1. The rulership and the authority belong to Allah (S.W.T.).
2. The obedience and submission to this rulership and authority by those who embraced this deen.
3. The comprehensive system (intellectual and practical) established by this authority (Allah).
4. The reward given by this authority (Allah) to those that followed the system and submitted to it and the punishment inflicted upon those who rebel against it and disobey it.
Based on this definition of deen, we can summarize that deen is a submission, following and worship by man for the creator, the ruler, the subjugator in a comprehensive system of life with all its belief, intellectual, moral and practical aspects.
After understanding this definition of the Arabic word deen, we realize that it is wrong to translate it to the English with the word "religion". Furthermore we do not need anyone to come up with a definition for the word deen
Wake the Fuck-up Liberal and America or this is what your faith will be………Under the No Religion of Islam…
When a Muslim declares that Islam is a religion of peace, he/she is either ignorant of the Koran (Qur'an), or is deceitfully thinking of this "peace", as it extends only to those within the Muslim Community. The deceit is that they will not tell you exactly what they mean. According to the Qur'an: "Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another, but ruthless to unbelievers" Surah 48:29. "Kill the Mushrikun (unbelievers) wherever you find them, and capture
them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush..." Surah 9:5. Also see Surah 9:29: PICKTHAL: "Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture (Christians & Jews) as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His
messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." Please note that there is not a single verse in the entire Christian Bible that contains this "openended", universal command to kill/or be ruthless to unbelievers.
Surah 47:4 says:
Fa'idha Laqitumu Al-Ladhina Kafaru Fadarba Ar-Riqabi Hattaá 'Idha 'Athkhantumuhum Fashuddu Al-Wathaqa Fa'imma Mannaan Ba`du Wa 'Imma Fida'an Hattaá Tada`a Al-Harbu 'Awzaraha Dhalika WaLaw Yasha'u Allahu Lantasara Minhum Wa Lakin Liyabluwa Ba`dakum Biba`din Wa Al-Ladhina Qutilu
Fi Sabili Allahi Falan Yudilla 'A`malahum
which means
Therefore, WHEN YOU MEET THE UNBELIEVERS, SMITE AT THEIR NECKS; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you
fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost. Many Quran translators have tried to soften the meaning in their translation by adding the words “in war” in brackets after the word “Unbelievers” but they are NOT there in the original Arabic text.
Religion of Peace … both a lie
1. Religion of Islam …..is not a religion, not mention in the Qur’an as a religion no where to be found
Deen is mention but taken as a comprehensive system of life and not a religion
Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Al-Imran, (Verse 19), what can be translated as, "The deen before Allah (accepted by Allah) is Islam". He also says in surat Al-Mae’dah, (Verse 3), what can be translated as, "Today, I have completed your deen, and have completed my bliss upon you and accepted for you Islam as a deen." He also says in surat Al-Imran, (Verse 85), what can be translated as, "Whosoever seeks, other than Islam, a deen, it will not be accepted from him and he, in the Hereafter, is among the losers."
The word deen and the word Islam were mentioned in these verses and in many others in the Qur’an. These two words are two of the most important words in the life of the Muslims, because the guidance, success in this life and in the Hereafter depends on two things: Understanding the meaning of these two words (deen and Islam), and applying this meaning in life.
Our understanding for these two words got weak because of our weakness in the Arabic language with which Qur’an was revealed. As a result, we repeat these two words (deen and Islam) with the tongues without understanding them except for a few people who could understand them as they should be understood. So, it is impossible to apply their meanings in our lives, despite our insistence on belonging to the deen and specifically to Islam.
What is the meaning of the word deen and the word Islam?
To answer this question, it is a must that we refer to the Arabic language dictionaries which still keep the meaning of how the Arabs used to understand the word deen and the word Islam when Qur’an was being revealed. In that period of time, there was no problem with understanding these two words by the Arabs from whom the companions of the prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) came. That generation that transformed the understanding for these two words into reality in their individual and collective lives. As a result, this understanding led them to the guidance, the guidance of Islam. This change was the greatest change in the long history of mankind.
The concept of deen: The word deen is used in the Arabic language to give different meanings, most importantly are:
1. Subjugation, Authority, Ruling and Having Charge
A. He subjugated people to obey. Subjugated here is a literal translation of the verb of the word deen.
B. He has authority over him. Has authority here is a literal translation of the verb of the word deen. In this context, the saying of the prophet (S.A.W.) reveals this meaning, "The intelligent person is the one who has authority over himself and works for the Hereafter" This means that the intelligent person is the one who has subjugated himself and made himself obedient to Allah. In this context, also, the past participle would be subjugated, ruled and submitted. For example, Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Al-Waqe’ah, (Verse 86 & 87), what can be translated as, "If you are not subjugated, then return it if you are truthful". This means, if you are not forced by the will of Allah in the issues of death and life, then return the soul to the body after it has left it due to death.
2. Obedience and Submission due to Subjugation:
3. The Method and the Habit:
4. Punishment, Reward and Judgment: The Arabs had a saying, which implies the following: you are treated the same way you treat others.
These four linguistic meanings constitute the concept of the word deen in the Qur’an where it implies a comprehensive system of life that is composed of four parts:
1. The rulership and the authority belong to Allah (S.W.T.).
2. The obedience and submission to this rulership and authority by those who embraced this deen.
3. The comprehensive system (intellectual and practical) established by this authority (Allah).
4. The reward given by this authority (Allah) to those that followed the system and submitted to it and the punishment inflicted upon those who rebel against it and disobey it.
Based on this definition of deen, we can summarize that deen is a submission, following and worship by man for the creator, the ruler, the subjugator in a comprehensive system of life with all its belief, intellectual, moral and practical aspects.
After understanding this definition of the Arabic word deen, we realize that it is wrong to translate it to the English with the word "religion". Furthermore we do not need anyone to come up with a definition for the word deen
Wake the Fuck-up Liberal and America or this is what your faith will be………Under the No Religion of Islam…
When a Muslim declares that Islam is a religion of peace, he/she is either ignorant of the Koran (Qur'an), or is deceitfully thinking of this "peace", as it extends only to those within the Muslim Community. The deceit is that they will not tell you exactly what they mean. According to the Qur'an: "Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another, but ruthless to unbelievers" Surah 48:29. "Kill the Mushrikun (unbelievers) wherever you find them, and capture
them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush..." Surah 9:5. Also see Surah 9:29: PICKTHAL: "Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture (Christians & Jews) as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His
messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." Please note that there is not a single verse in the entire Christian Bible that contains this "openended", universal command to kill/or be ruthless to unbelievers.
Surah 47:4 says:
Fa'idha Laqitumu Al-Ladhina Kafaru Fadarba Ar-Riqabi Hattaá 'Idha 'Athkhantumuhum Fashuddu Al-Wathaqa Fa'imma Mannaan Ba`du Wa 'Imma Fida'an Hattaá Tada`a Al-Harbu 'Awzaraha Dhalika WaLaw Yasha'u Allahu Lantasara Minhum Wa Lakin Liyabluwa Ba`dakum Biba`din Wa Al-Ladhina Qutilu
Fi Sabili Allahi Falan Yudilla 'A`malahum
which means
Therefore, WHEN YOU MEET THE UNBELIEVERS, SMITE AT THEIR NECKS; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you
fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost. Many Quran translators have tried to soften the meaning in their translation by adding the words “in war” in brackets after the word “Unbelievers” but they are NOT there in the original Arabic text.
Religion of Peace … both a lie
FatHobbit
Posts: 8,651
Sep 9, 2010 9:52am
Belly35;476779 wrote:'Ideology of Pakistan', Mufti Rafi Usmani sahab mentioned that 'Nowhere in the Qur'an or Ahadeeth, you will find Islam being mentioned as a religion. It is always mentioned as Deen. Deen means a complete way of life, whereas religion is a set of laws limited to worshipping etc.
1. Religion of Islam …..is not a religion, not mention in the Qur’an as a religion no where to be found
Deen is mention but taken as a comprehensive system of life and not a religion
Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Al-Imran, (Verse 19), what can be translated as, "The deen before Allah (accepted by Allah) is Islam". He also says in surat Al-Mae’dah, (Verse 3), what can be translated as, "Today, I have completed your deen, and have completed my bliss upon you and accepted for you Islam as a deen." He also says in surat Al-Imran, (Verse 85), what can be translated as, "Whosoever seeks, other than Islam, a deen, it will not be accepted from him and he, in the Hereafter, is among the losers."
The word deen and the word Islam were mentioned in these verses and in many others in the Qur’an. These two words are two of the most important words in the life of the Muslims, because the guidance, success in this life and in the Hereafter depends on two things: Understanding the meaning of these two words (deen and Islam), and applying this meaning in life.
Our understanding for these two words got weak because of our weakness in the Arabic language with which Qur’an was revealed. As a result, we repeat these two words (deen and Islam) with the tongues without understanding them except for a few people who could understand them as they should be understood. So, it is impossible to apply their meanings in our lives, despite our insistence on belonging to the deen and specifically to Islam.
What is the meaning of the word deen and the word Islam?
To answer this question, it is a must that we refer to the Arabic language dictionaries which still keep the meaning of how the Arabs used to understand the word deen and the word Islam when Qur’an was being revealed. In that period of time, there was no problem with understanding these two words by the Arabs from whom the companions of the prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) came. That generation that transformed the understanding for these two words into reality in their individual and collective lives. As a result, this understanding led them to the guidance, the guidance of Islam. This change was the greatest change in the long history of mankind.
The concept of deen: The word deen is used in the Arabic language to give different meanings, most importantly are:
1. Subjugation, Authority, Ruling and Having Charge
A. He subjugated people to obey. Subjugated here is a literal translation of the verb of the word deen.
B. He has authority over him. Has authority here is a literal translation of the verb of the word deen. In this context, the saying of the prophet (S.A.W.) reveals this meaning, "The intelligent person is the one who has authority over himself and works for the Hereafter" This means that the intelligent person is the one who has subjugated himself and made himself obedient to Allah. In this context, also, the past participle would be subjugated, ruled and submitted. For example, Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Al-Waqe’ah, (Verse 86 & 87), what can be translated as, "If you are not subjugated, then return it if you are truthful". This means, if you are not forced by the will of Allah in the issues of death and life, then return the soul to the body after it has left it due to death.
2. Obedience and Submission due to Subjugation:
3. The Method and the Habit:
4. Punishment, Reward and Judgment: The Arabs had a saying, which implies the following: you are treated the same way you treat others.
These four linguistic meanings constitute the concept of the word deen in the Qur’an where it implies a comprehensive system of life that is composed of four parts:
1. The rulership and the authority belong to Allah (S.W.T.).
2. The obedience and submission to this rulership and authority by those who embraced this deen.
3. The comprehensive system (intellectual and practical) established by this authority (Allah).
4. The reward given by this authority (Allah) to those that followed the system and submitted to it and the punishment inflicted upon those who rebel against it and disobey it.
Based on this definition of deen, we can summarize that deen is a submission, following and worship by man for the creator, the ruler, the subjugator in a comprehensive system of life with all its belief, intellectual, moral and practical aspects.
After understanding this definition of the Arabic word deen, we realize that it is wrong to translate it to the English with the word "religion". Furthermore we do not need anyone to come up with a definition for the word deen
Wake the Fuck-up Liberal and America or this is what your faith will be………Under the No Religion of Islam…
When a Muslim declares that Islam is a religion of peace, he/she is either ignorant of the Koran (Qur'an), or is deceitfully thinking of this "peace", as it extends only to those within the Muslim Community. The deceit is that they will not tell you exactly what they mean. According to the Qur'an: "Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another, but ruthless to unbelievers" Surah 48:29. "Kill the Mushrikun (unbelievers) wherever you find them, and capture
them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush..." Surah 9:5. Also see Surah 9:29: PICKTHAL: "Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture (Christians & Jews) as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His
messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." Please note that there is not a single verse in the entire Christian Bible that contains this "openended", universal command to kill/or be ruthless to unbelievers.
Surah 47:4 says:
Fa'idha Laqitumu Al-Ladhina Kafaru Fadarba Ar-Riqabi Hattaá 'Idha 'Athkhantumuhum Fashuddu Al-Wathaqa Fa'imma Mannaan Ba`du Wa 'Imma Fida'an Hattaá Tada`a Al-Harbu 'Awzaraha Dhalika WaLaw Yasha'u Allahu Lantasara Minhum Wa Lakin Liyabluwa Ba`dakum Biba`din Wa Al-Ladhina Qutilu
Fi Sabili Allahi Falan Yudilla 'A`malahum
which means
Therefore, WHEN YOU MEET THE UNBELIEVERS, SMITE AT THEIR NECKS; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you
fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost. Many Quran translators have tried to soften the meaning in their translation by adding the words “in war” in brackets after the word “Unbelievers” but they are NOT there in the original Arabic text.
Religion of Peace … both a lie
Belly.... I can tell exactly which parts were written by you and which parts were copied from the internet. That's one side of the biased stuff I found when I googled it, which is why I was asking ptown what it actually said.
ptown_trojans_1
Posts: 7,632
Sep 9, 2010 11:14am
No problem. Any other questions, let me know.FatHobbit;475851 wrote:Thanks!
Belly, where did you obtain that translation?
Sura 47, I believe is a Mecca sura, meaning it was recited in reference to idol worshipers, not Jews or Christians. Now, radicals take it to mean Christians. But, the context is idol worships in Mecca.
Also, I disagree with the notion that religion does not appear in the Qur'an. In Arberry's translations it does.
Finally, who is this Mufti and what influence or authority does he have?
Come on, you know the rules, cite your stuff.
I
I Wear Pants
Posts: 16,223
Sep 9, 2010 2:43pm
Nice copypasta there Belly.
ptown_trojans_1
Posts: 7,632
Sep 9, 2010 3:23pm
By the way,my favorite passage from the Qur'an is from the Sura of Light.
From Arberry: "God is the Light of the heavens and the earth; the likeness of His Light is as a niche wherein is a lamp (the lamp in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star) kindled from a Blessed Tree, an olive that is neither of the East nor of the West whose oil wellnigh would shine, even if no fire touched it; Light upon Light; (God guides to His Light whom He will.) -The Qur'an-24:35
Meaning, God is all powerful, his influence encompasses the universe, and is like the light from the best lamp with the best oil made from the best olives in the world. And God will lead all to the light.
It is easily one of my favorite suras as it speaks to living your life in service of God.
From Arberry: "God is the Light of the heavens and the earth; the likeness of His Light is as a niche wherein is a lamp (the lamp in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star) kindled from a Blessed Tree, an olive that is neither of the East nor of the West whose oil wellnigh would shine, even if no fire touched it; Light upon Light; (God guides to His Light whom He will.) -The Qur'an-24:35
Meaning, God is all powerful, his influence encompasses the universe, and is like the light from the best lamp with the best oil made from the best olives in the world. And God will lead all to the light.
It is easily one of my favorite suras as it speaks to living your life in service of God.
Belly35
Posts: 9,716
Sep 9, 2010 3:56pm
Take years to get to this levelI Wear Pants;477183 wrote:Nice copypasta there Belly.
I
I Wear Pants
Posts: 16,223
Sep 9, 2010 4:10pm
Haha. This is true. I am but a beginner.
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Sep 12, 2010 1:40pm
Islam a religion of peace?
One way to determine the true essence of a religion is by examining the lives of their founder and his disciples.
With the issuance of the bai at al-harb oath of war Muhammad claimed divine permission to wage war.
He used this supposed permission to violate a truce with his opponents to begin a campaign of looting caravans.
He approved the assassination of the opposition leader Kab ibn al-Ashraf.
He had prisoners executed.
Of the three Jewish tribes in Arabia. He had two expelled. Ban u Quraiza were the third Jewish tribe. Muhammad had all 600 of the men executed and the women and children enslaved.
He spread Islam by conquest in Arabia. His followers would continue this program, spreading the religion for the next two hundred years, capturing lands from Spain to Pakistan for Islam. The majority of populations centers for Islam were given the faith by force at that time.
I am not aware of Jesus or his disciples practicing assassinations, executions, ethnic cleansing, genocide or spreading their faith by wars of conquest.
Christ and his disciples died as martyrs, peaceful advocates for their faith.
For the first 250 years of Christianity the religion was spread by proselytizing and example
One way to determine the true essence of a religion is by examining the lives of their founder and his disciples.
With the issuance of the bai at al-harb oath of war Muhammad claimed divine permission to wage war.
He used this supposed permission to violate a truce with his opponents to begin a campaign of looting caravans.
He approved the assassination of the opposition leader Kab ibn al-Ashraf.
He had prisoners executed.
Of the three Jewish tribes in Arabia. He had two expelled. Ban u Quraiza were the third Jewish tribe. Muhammad had all 600 of the men executed and the women and children enslaved.
He spread Islam by conquest in Arabia. His followers would continue this program, spreading the religion for the next two hundred years, capturing lands from Spain to Pakistan for Islam. The majority of populations centers for Islam were given the faith by force at that time.
I am not aware of Jesus or his disciples practicing assassinations, executions, ethnic cleansing, genocide or spreading their faith by wars of conquest.
Christ and his disciples died as martyrs, peaceful advocates for their faith.
For the first 250 years of Christianity the religion was spread by proselytizing and example
ptown_trojans_1
Posts: 7,632
Sep 12, 2010 5:13pm
Ehh, isa, we disagree on this aspect. I still get your point, but I disagree with your reading of history.
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Sep 12, 2010 5:36pm
ptown you are an intelligent young man
you disagree with my reading of history?
you disagree that good old Muhammad committed these acts? really? that you can read history and none of the following happened?
he did not authorize executions and assassinations?
he did not authorize raiding
are you saying he did not banish, massacre and enslave the Jewish tribes of Arabia?
are you saying that from the get go Islam was spread by conquest?
or maybe you are saying Christ and his disciples were on a comparable level because they took similar actions to spread their faith.
that Christianity was spread by conquest in its first two and half centuries.
you disagree with my reading of history?
you disagree that good old Muhammad committed these acts? really? that you can read history and none of the following happened?
he did not authorize executions and assassinations?
he did not authorize raiding
are you saying he did not banish, massacre and enslave the Jewish tribes of Arabia?
are you saying that from the get go Islam was spread by conquest?
or maybe you are saying Christ and his disciples were on a comparable level because they took similar actions to spread their faith.
that Christianity was spread by conquest in its first two and half centuries.
ptown_trojans_1
Posts: 7,632
Sep 12, 2010 6:20pm
isadore;481512 wrote:ptown you are an intelligent young man
you disagree with my reading of history?
you disagree that good old Muhammad committed these acts? really? that you can read history and none of the following happened?
he did not authorize executions and assassinations?
he did not authorize raiding
are you saying he did not banish, massacre and enslave the Jewish tribes of Arabia?
are you saying that from the get go Islam was spread by conquest?
or maybe you are saying Christ and his disciples were on a comparable level because they took similar actions to spread their faith.
that Christianity was spread by conquest in its first two and half centuries.
For the sake of starting a long, drawn out argument that I really don't care for, sure haha.
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Sep 12, 2010 6:29pm
everything I listed he did,
it reflects on him and essence of the relgion he began
al queda and its fanatic terrorists are a true reflection the father of their faith.
it reflects on him and essence of the relgion he began
al queda and its fanatic terrorists are a true reflection the father of their faith.
ptown_trojans_1
Posts: 7,632
Sep 12, 2010 6:41pm
isadore;481546 wrote:everything I listed he did,
it reflects on him and essence of the relgion he began
al queda and its fanatic terrorists are a true reflection the father of their faith.
I disagree, but whatever.
redfalcon
Posts: 1,088
Sep 12, 2010 6:50pm
Isadore, I would chime in and try and persuade you, but you have proven time and time again to be a closed minded racist. I will list several violent verses from the bible and you can decide what religion is the more violent of the two.
I bolded the most blatent one. Islam can kind of be twisted and interpreted to say that non believers must die (which it doesn't actually say, see the above post from Ptown), but Christianity flat out say kill'em all.
Death of Women, Children, Infants, and Unborn babies.
Numbers 31:17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Joshua 10:28And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho. 29Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: 30And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.31And Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, unto Lachish, and encamped against it, and fought against it: 32And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah.
2 Kings 2:23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
2 Kings 15:16Then Menahem smote Tiphsah, and all that were therein, and the coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
Psalms 137:9Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Psalms 137:9Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks. (NLT)
Ezekial 9: 5And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
Hosea 9:16Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.
Hosea 13:16Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Punishment for cursing parents (Death):
Exodus 21:15And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
Exodus 21:17And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Deuteronomy 21:18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Matthew 15:1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Punishment For Apostates (Death):
Deuteronomy 13:6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deuteronomy 13: 13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
Deuteronomy 17:3And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 4And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 5Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
2 Chronicles 15:13That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Romans 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Punishment for Psychics (Death):
Leviticus 20: 27A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Punishment for Rapists (or Rape Victims, You Decide):
Deuteronomy 22:28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
Deuteronomy 22:28 If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, 29the man who lay with her shall give fifty shekels of silver to the young woman’s father, and she shall become his wife. Because he violated her he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives. (NRSV)
From Dictionary.com
Seize- To grasp suddenly and forcibly; take or grab
Deuteronomy 22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife
I bolded the most blatent one. Islam can kind of be twisted and interpreted to say that non believers must die (which it doesn't actually say, see the above post from Ptown), but Christianity flat out say kill'em all.
Death of Women, Children, Infants, and Unborn babies.
Numbers 31:17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Joshua 10:28And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho. 29Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: 30And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.31And Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, unto Lachish, and encamped against it, and fought against it: 32And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah.
2 Kings 2:23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
2 Kings 15:16Then Menahem smote Tiphsah, and all that were therein, and the coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
Psalms 137:9Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Psalms 137:9Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks. (NLT)
Ezekial 9: 5And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
Hosea 9:16Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.
Hosea 13:16Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Punishment for cursing parents (Death):
Exodus 21:15And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
Exodus 21:17And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Deuteronomy 21:18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Matthew 15:1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Punishment For Apostates (Death):
Deuteronomy 13:6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deuteronomy 13: 13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
Deuteronomy 17:3And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 4And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 5Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
2 Chronicles 15:13That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Romans 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Punishment for Psychics (Death):
Leviticus 20: 27A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Punishment for Rapists (or Rape Victims, You Decide):
Deuteronomy 22:28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
Deuteronomy 22:28 If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, 29the man who lay with her shall give fifty shekels of silver to the young woman’s father, and she shall become his wife. Because he violated her he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives. (NRSV)
From Dictionary.com
Seize- To grasp suddenly and forcibly; take or grab
Deuteronomy 22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Sep 12, 2010 6:57pm
the view of a groundless apologistptown_trojans-1 wrote:I disagree, but whatever.
thank you for your input
CenterBHSFan
Posts: 6,115
Sep 12, 2010 6:59pm
I do not think that Isa could be described as a racist.
Prejudiced, debatable. But, never racist.
redfalcon, I'm curious. Is your post a tit-for-tat example or a justification of what Isadore posted?
Prejudiced, debatable. But, never racist.
redfalcon, I'm curious. Is your post a tit-for-tat example or a justification of what Isadore posted?
ptown_trojans_1
Posts: 7,632
Sep 12, 2010 7:09pm
isadore;481565 wrote:the view of a groundless apologist
thank you for your input
No prob Chief....
redfalcon
Posts: 1,088
Sep 12, 2010 7:12pm
tit for tat. Both religions have very violent pasts, and extremists on both sides are still active.
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Sep 12, 2010 7:40pm
Of course he would claim I was racist, because he can not tell the difference between an ethnic group and a religion. But what the hell for him ignorance is bliss.
Interest that all but two of your quotes are from the Old Testament. Predating Christ.
Romans is from Paul, who took a very strict view of things but as opposed to Muhammed and his disciples never assassinated anyone, never practiced genocide, never conquered or enslaved anyone. Just died a martyr.
And Christ is standing up for parents in Matthew 15, but does he kill anyone, does he commit genocide, does he enslave, does he assassinate.
From the get go Christianity was different in its essence from Islam.
Christ and his disciples killed no one, they spread their faith by proselytizing and by their examples. They died as martyrs to their faith. For their first 250 years that was the way Christianity spread around the Mid east and the Mediterranean.
Muhammed and his follower began with murder and conquest, then spread their religion using those methods. For their first 250 years they conquered by the sword from Spain to Pakistan gaining most of the population centers Islam controls today.
Interest that all but two of your quotes are from the Old Testament. Predating Christ.
Romans is from Paul, who took a very strict view of things but as opposed to Muhammed and his disciples never assassinated anyone, never practiced genocide, never conquered or enslaved anyone. Just died a martyr.
And Christ is standing up for parents in Matthew 15, but does he kill anyone, does he commit genocide, does he enslave, does he assassinate.
From the get go Christianity was different in its essence from Islam.
Christ and his disciples killed no one, they spread their faith by proselytizing and by their examples. They died as martyrs to their faith. For their first 250 years that was the way Christianity spread around the Mid east and the Mediterranean.
Muhammed and his follower began with murder and conquest, then spread their religion using those methods. For their first 250 years they conquered by the sword from Spain to Pakistan gaining most of the population centers Islam controls today.
redfalcon
Posts: 1,088
Sep 12, 2010 8:10pm
What's your point? And you are a racist based on your other comments, both on this forum and back to JJ.isadore;481600 wrote:Of course he would claim I was racist, because he can not tell the difference between an ethnic group and a religion. But what the hell for him ignorance is bliss.
Interest that all but two of your quotes are from the Old Testament. Predating Christ.
Romans is from Paul, who took a very strict view of things but as opposed to Muhammed and his disciples never assassinated anyone, never practiced genocide, never conquered or enslaved anyone. Just died a martyr.
And Christ is standing up for parents in Matthew 15, but does he kill anyone, does he commit genocide, does he enslave, does he assassinate.
From the get go Christianity was different in its essence from Islam.
Christ and his disciples killed no one, they spread their faith by proselytizing and by their examples. They died as martyrs to their faith. For their first 250 years that was the way Christianity spread around the Mid east and the Mediterranean.
Muhammed and his follower began with murder and conquest, then spread their religion using those methods. For their first 250 years they conquered by the sword from Spain to Pakistan gaining most of the population centers Islam controls today.
Oh, and I'm not going to actually respond to whatever gibberish you post next.
I
isadore
Posts: 7,762
Sep 12, 2010 8:21pm
too slow to pick up the point, quite understandable given your previously demonstrated shortcoming. It is no surprise that you are unable to respond to the fact that Islam was violent from the blood career of its founder and his disciples while Christianity was not from the life of its founder and his followers.
J
jmog
Posts: 6,567
Sep 13, 2010 1:19pm
redfalcon: I am not going to dig in and disect every one of your quotes as I have better things to do.
However, your quotes about violence fall into 1 of 4 catagories:
1. Historical recording of actual events. These verses are not God saying "go out and kill all the babies", they are verses describing what actually happened (right or wrong).
2. The Psalms ones are easy, the Bible is saying that people want to kill the Jews including their babies, it is NOT saying to please go kill babies.
3. Jesus telling stories/parables about violent leaders.
4. Jesus catching religious leaders in their own hypocracy, not actually calling for violence.
I do agree that when someone reads just one verse, as you just quoted one verse, some can EASILY be taken out of context, but to say the Bible/Jesus calls for/promotes violence is 100% false.
However, your quotes about violence fall into 1 of 4 catagories:
1. Historical recording of actual events. These verses are not God saying "go out and kill all the babies", they are verses describing what actually happened (right or wrong).
2. The Psalms ones are easy, the Bible is saying that people want to kill the Jews including their babies, it is NOT saying to please go kill babies.
3. Jesus telling stories/parables about violent leaders.
4. Jesus catching religious leaders in their own hypocracy, not actually calling for violence.
I do agree that when someone reads just one verse, as you just quoted one verse, some can EASILY be taken out of context, but to say the Bible/Jesus calls for/promotes violence is 100% false.