OSU's Lenzelle Smith out 3-6 months

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CinciX12

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Jul 27, 2010 7:19 PM
Laley23;433564 wrote:At OSU yes.

What did he accomplish elsewhere? Nothing at Butler or X. That 1 season is pretty much his career highlight.

I like the guy too after all these years, but without that year his life would be vastly different.
Jul 27, 2010 7:19pm
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Laley23

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Jul 28, 2010 12:05 PM
CinciX12;433788 wrote:What did he accomplish elsewhere? Nothing at Butler or X. That 1 season is pretty much his career highlight.

I like the guy too after all these years, but without that year his life would be vastly different.

Well in 4 years, at a mid-major, to win your first round game every time in the tourney and advance to the Elite 8 is a success. It isnt a HUGE success, but it isnt a failure, or underachieving that is for sure. So at OSU he has underachieved outside of the Oden team imo, but at Butler he was on par, and at Xavier he overachieved slightly.
Jul 28, 2010 12:05pm
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thedynasty1998

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Jul 28, 2010 12:17 PM
Laley23;434462 wrote:Well in 4 years, at a mid-major, to win your first round game every time in the tourney and advance to the Elite 8 is a success. It isnt a HUGE success, but it isnt a failure, or underachieving that is for sure. So at OSU he has underachieved outside of the Oden team imo, but at Butler he was on par, and at Xavier he overachieved slightly.

That's funny because when OSU hired Matta, I thought he was a good in game coach, but questioned his recruiting ability. Now, I think he is the best recruiter in the country (given his current situation), but a poor in game coach.

With that said, I wouldn't trade him for anyone.
Jul 28, 2010 12:17pm
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CinciX12

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Jul 28, 2010 12:32 PM
I'm not saying he failed at Xavier by any means that would just be stupid. But like Dynasty just said he has changed as a coach significantly to what I was used to seeing, not that it is better or worse. The in-game adjustments don't really seem to be there for him as consistently as they used to be.

He beats Duke and Xavier is his career highlight though. Now that would have been overachieving.
Jul 28, 2010 12:32pm
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thedynasty1998

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Jul 28, 2010 12:43 PM
CinciX12;434488 wrote:But like Dynasty just said he has changed as a coach significantly to what I was used to seeing, not that it is better or worse. The in-game adjustments don't really seem to be there for him as consistently as they used to be.

I wonder how much of that is due to the turnover of his assistant coaches? It seems like he loses someone yearly and maybe he isn't trusting his assistants as much for in game adjustments, or they just aren't as good?
Jul 28, 2010 12:43pm
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CinciX12

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Jul 28, 2010 1:22 PM
I can't really find a reason for it either. To me it always seems like he is determined to NOT make an in game adjustment usually. I have always thought it was he feared the 'defending' part of it at Ohio State. When you mess up with that Block O on your chest you have an entire state flipping out and questioning you. At Butler no one knew they existed, they are around 8th in media coverage in Indy (Higher now obviously), and at Xavier bad coaching decisions weren't really noticed because there was always another story in the area to cover it up on a large scale.

So basically he was braver at X because when he was there it was a rarity to even make SportsCenter during the season, the media wasn't there other than the Enquirer to really question decisions.
Jul 28, 2010 1:22pm
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Big Gain

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Jul 29, 2010 2:16 AM
thedynasty1998;433459 wrote:I was thinking about that the other day. If OSU didn't win that game, would Matta be considered a tournament underachiever?
woulda, coulda, shoulda, dumba
Jul 29, 2010 2:16am
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centralbucksfan

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Aug 2, 2010 9:45 AM
Laley23;434462 wrote: So at OSU he has underachieved outside of the Oden team imo, but at Butler he was on par, and at Xavier he overachieved slightly.
Quite possibly, the MOST ignorant statement made on this board in a LONG, LONG time.
2nd place is Dynasty "POOR" in game coach.

Two ridiculous comments.

You don't win multiple Big Ten titles, build a program into a top 10-15 program, turn a DORMANT program around, by "underachieving and being a poor in game coach".
Aug 2, 2010 9:45am
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centralbucksfan

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Aug 2, 2010 9:54 AM
CinciX12;433788 wrote:What did he accomplish elsewhere? Nothing at Butler or X. That 1 season is pretty much his career highlight.

I like the guy too after all these years, but without that year his life would be vastly different.

What did he do? He is only one of a FEW coaches to EVER win conference titles in multiple conferences. He is one of a handful of coaches to win 20+ games EVERY season he has been a head coach. I could go on and on with Matta success as a head coach if I wanted.
But according to YOU and others...if you don't win a national title, you are crap. So I guess MOST coaches are CRAP, and FEW good coaches. I guess Calipari is possibly the WORST coach based on what is being said about Matta then.
Its obvious some of you have NEVER been involved in sports or coaching. There is MORE to being successful then just winning a national title. Every coach would love to do this. But it is not the ONLY thing that distinguishes what is successful, and what is NOT successful.

Bottom line, you and most other X fans (I know more) are still VERY bitter about how Matta left X. Get over it.
Aug 2, 2010 9:54am
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thedynasty1998

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Aug 2, 2010 10:01 AM
centralbucksfan;438920 wrote:What did he do? He is only one of a FEW coaches to EVER win conference titles in multiple conferences. He is one of a handful of coaches to win 20+ games EVERY season he has been a head coach. I could go on and on with Matta success as a head coach if I wanted.
But according to YOU and others...if you don't win a national title, you are crap. So I guess MOST coaches are CRAP, and FEW good coaches. I guess Calipari is possibly the WORST coach based on what is being said about Matta then.
Its obvious some of you have NEVER been involved in sports or coaching. There is MORE to being successful then just winning a national title. Every coach would love to do this. But it is not the ONLY thing that distinguishes what is successful, and what is NOT successful.

Bottom line, you and most other X fans (I know more) are still VERY bitter about how Matta left X. Get over it.

I think I brought up the discussion on Matta, so with that said, I think he is a great coach. However I think he has somewhat underachieved in the tournament, but at the same time, he tends to overachieve in the regular season which gives people higher hopes than what maybe should be expected.

Heading into last year, I wouldn't have believed OSU would have won the Big 10 title and would have went to the sweet 16 in the tourney. That is a credit to Matta's coaching ability.

But I do think he is a better recruiter than coach. Nothing wrong with that, because he's an elite recruiter, however it's hard to deny some of the coaching decisions he's made. But then again, it's a lot easier for us to criticize on here, than to actually make the in game adjustments.

Like I said above, I wouldn't trade Matta for anyone. He took the program to a level we haven't seen in a while and there is no reason to think he won't keep OSU near the top.
Aug 2, 2010 10:01am
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centralbucksfan

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Aug 2, 2010 10:09 AM
thedynasty1998;438924 wrote:I think I brought up the discussion on Matta, so with that said, I think he is a great coach. However I think he has somewhat underachieved in the tournament, but at the same time, he tends to overachieve in the regular season which gives people higher hopes than what maybe should be expected.

Heading into last year, I wouldn't have believed OSU would have won the Big 10 title and would have went to the sweet 16 in the tourney. That is a credit to Matta's coaching ability.

But I do think he is a better recruiter than coach. Nothing wrong with that, because he's an elite recruiter, however it's hard to deny some of the coaching decisions he's made. But then again, it's a lot easier for us to criticize on here, than to actually make the in game adjustments.

Like I said above, I wouldn't trade Matta for anyone. He took the program to a level we haven't seen in a while and there is no reason to think he won't keep OSU near the top.
Well, I never said he was "great", nor do I think he is great. I do believe he is very good, and on that "second tier" of top coaches around the country. There are few great coaches IMO.
But he is still a quality coach IMO. And like you, I wouldn't trade him for anyone currently. Not only that, I don't think he gets enough credit for player development either. YOu look at guys likes Turner, who stayed 3yrs, along with others who have stayed...they have improved significantly over their time at OSU. Matta deserves some credit for this without question.
Aug 2, 2010 10:09am
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thedynasty1998

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Aug 2, 2010 10:21 AM
Interesting point about player development, it's just a shame he hasn't had the chance to work longer with some of his more talented players to really tell if that is true or not.

I might actually disagree with you on this though. You look at some of his four year guys and some improved (Turner in 3 years, Dials, we saw Terwilliger develop his game). Yet at the same time, you have guys who haven't really developed much (Butler and Diebler).
Aug 2, 2010 10:21am
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Prescott

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Aug 2, 2010 11:33 AM
(Butler and Diebler).
I don't know how you could say that Diebler hasn't developed. All of his positive statistics have gone and all of his negative statistics have gone down. As for Butler, I think he improved to the point that Matta put everything on his shoulders during his senior season.

Most players develop because they mature physically and mentally. In reality, a players development depends on how hard the player wants to work and how much talent that player has. There is a ceiling.
Aug 2, 2010 11:33am
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thedynasty1998

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Aug 2, 2010 12:03 PM
Prescott;438977 wrote:I don't know how you could say that Diebler hasn't developed. All of his positive statistics have gone and all of his negative statistics have gone down. As for Butler, I think he improved to the point that Matta put everything on his shoulders during his senior season.

Most players develop because they mature physically and mentally. In reality, a players development depends on how hard the player wants to work and how much talent that player has. There is a ceiling.
No doubt there is a ceiling and development obviously goes hand in hand with effort.

However, Butler was basically the same player as a senior as a freshman, which was a great shooter, solid ball handler and someone who could manage the game. He never really developed into a PG who could create or a mid range guy. Not a knock on him, but I just thought as a freshman he would have developed more.

And let's not confuse improvement with maturity with development. Players are naturally going to be better as a senior than a freshman. Each year Turner was at OSU, he added something to his game and improved. Same can be said for Terrence Dials who lost weight and really developed into a good player. Another I would point to is Othello Hunter. Dude was as raw as could be when he arrived, but got dramatically better over the years. I mentioned Diebler because he is someone who came in as a one dimensional player, and he remains that. I think it would be hard to say he has developed the way one would have hoped.
Aug 2, 2010 12:03pm
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Prescott

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Aug 2, 2010 12:33 PM
I mentioned Diebler because he is someone who came in as a one dimensional player, and he remains that. I think it would be hard to say he has developed the way one would have hoped.
You gave a nice list of players who, in your opinion, have developed while at OSU.

As for Diebler, he is what he is. He was recruited to be a one-dimensional offensive plater and that is what he is. Unfortunately for Diebler and OSU fans, he will never be more than that because his athleticism creates a ceiling.

That being said, he has developed. He is a better ball handler, a better defender because he understands passing lanes, and his shot selection is better, which makes him a more efficient player when compared to his freshman year.

A coach can only give a player a blueprint for improvement. The hard work needed for development comes from the player.
Aug 2, 2010 12:33pm
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centralbucksfan

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Aug 2, 2010 2:20 PM
Prescott;439031 wrote:You gave a nice list of players who, in your opinion, have developed while at OSU.

As for Diebler, he is what he is. He was recruited to be a one-dimensional offensive plater and that is what he is. Unfortunately for Diebler and OSU fans, he will never be more than that because his athleticism creates a ceiling.

That being said, he has developed. He is a better ball handler, a better defender because he understands passing lanes, and his shot selection is better, which makes him a more efficient player when compared to his freshman year.

A coach can only give a player a blueprint for improvement. The hard work needed for development comes from the player.
Well put, couldn't agree more. Butler had a ceiling, and I believe he reached that ceiling. That is evident in that he never made the NBA, like many thought.(not myself). But he certainly improved during his tenure at OSU, NO question. And that after being moved OFF the ball his junior year. Quite possibly the single most difficult thing to do for a player who did nothing but play with the ball for his entire life. Same for Deibler. The guy was a PG all they way up to college. >Then he had to learn to play off the ball. Playing off the ball is NOT an easy thing to learn when you have never done it.
As mentioned, its all about a players ceiling / potential. Many had/have unrealistic expectations of Deibler because of his scoring in high school. He has come to OSU and done what I personally expected him to do, be a shooter, period. Thats his role, and he plays that role well and has gotten better each year at it.
Turner on the other hand, has a HUGE upside. He, like Hunter, was pretty raw player/athlete coming to OSU. His hard work ethic along with the coaches working wth him (development), put him where he is today. As mentioned, some players could practice 24/7 and will never be like Turner. You do have to have that God given ability to be a great player. Its not for everyone.
Aug 2, 2010 2:20pm
thedynasty1998's avatar

thedynasty1998

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Aug 2, 2010 3:11 PM
I understand what goes into development. I think Butler improved, as I said above due to his physical maturity and experience. But he never really developed new parts of his game. I really liked Butler and I don't mean to knock him, but I just think he's an example of a guy who didn't really develop the way one might have predicted after his freshman season.

As for Dielber, I honestly don't understand how anyone could be happy with his development. He hasn't gotten any tougher, seems even more scared to put the ball on the ground, and never bought into rebounding.

The fact that his rebounding and assists numbers were the same his junior year as his freshman year is all the proof I need, when his minutes went up by 16 mpg. The guy can obviously shoot the basketball, but I don't understand why anyone makes excuses for him in failing to improve in other areas.

Just to discuss further, here are my opinions on some guys.

Guys who I would say have been disappointing in their development:
Lighty - better shooter, but never really took that step many thought he would
Lauderdale - Still as inept offensively as day 1
Buford - He has this year to really show his improvement, but he didn't improve as much as one would expect from year 1 to 2
Z - How a guy can be 7 foot and spend a redshirt year working on his game, yet not be better than Madsen is beyond me

Guys who developed exponentially under Matta:
Ivan Harris - really transformed his game to find a role
Turner
Hunter
Aug 2, 2010 3:11pm
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Laley23

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Aug 5, 2010 12:53 AM
centralbucksfan;438914 wrote:Quite possibly, the MOST ignorant statement made on this board in a LONG, LONG time.
2nd place is Dynasty "POOR" in game coach.

Two ridiculous comments.

You don't win multiple Big Ten titles, build a program into a top 10-15 program, turn a DORMANT program around, by "underachieving and being a poor in game coach".

Yep, its ignorant....

Do you even know what the comment was made about? Jesus, you mention shit that has no bearing on the topic at hand....the NCAA tournament.

Outside of the Oden team, he has underachieved. The only people who would tell you otherwise are OSU fans.

Not Eligible
2nd round
NIT
First Round
Sweet Sixteen

Thats 3 NCAAs, and all three are losing to lower seeds, and twice losing in the opening weekend and twice as the #2 seed.
Aug 5, 2010 12:53am
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thedynasty1998

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Aug 5, 2010 9:10 AM
So Matta would be considered a good in game coach?

I thought that was pretty common knowledge, guess not. Had no idea that was an "ignorant" comment?

He rarely makes in game adjustments or mixes rotations based on who is playing well/who isn't.
Aug 5, 2010 9:10am
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centralbucksfan

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Aug 8, 2010 7:51 PM
Laley23;442266 wrote:Yep, its ignorant....

Do you even know what the comment was made about? Jesus, you mention shit that has no bearing on the topic at hand....the NCAA tournament.

Outside of the Oden team, he has underachieved. The only people who would tell you otherwise are OSU fans.

Not Eligible
2nd round
NIT
First Round
Sweet Sixteen

Thats 3 NCAAs, and all three are losing to lower seeds, and twice losing in the opening weekend and twice as the #2 seed.


Yup, IGNORANT, with a capital "I". Its easy to blurt out the above without taking into consideration what he walked into, on top of the many players who have left the program early. The NCAA is NOT, I repeat, is NOT the end all when it comes to evaluating a coach. If you want to believe that, so be it....but then its quite obvious you never played nor coached sports.


Was I disappointed with the 1st rd exit two years ago and the NIT? Yes. Other then that, this past season, his teams EXCEEDED expectations and in his second year, his teams FAR exceeded expectations. He also got done, what Cal couldn't do this past season, by meeting expectations with the Oden frosh laden team. Obviously not an easy task.

Oh yes, 3 Big Ten titles in 6 seasons. Not too bad. And he continues to rake in recruits. His time will come. Many FORGOT the guy has only been a head coach for 10 seasons, averages 25 wins per season and is only 42yrs of age.

It takes time to build a "program". OSU won't be outside the NCAA for quite a while IMO.

So anyone thinking Matta or OSU have "underachievied" for the MOST part...are in fact, making IGNORANT statements.
Aug 8, 2010 7:51pm
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centralbucksfan

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Aug 8, 2010 7:53 PM
thedynasty1998;442351 wrote:So Matta would be considered a good in game coach?

He rarely makes in game adjustments or mixes rotations based on who is playing well/who isn't.

Rarely? LOL Your smarter then that, and know better. Have you been in the locker room at half for all the games? Give me a break. So you sound like the common Mr. Armchair QB.

"In Game" adjustments are highly overrated in most all sports.
Aug 8, 2010 7:53pm
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thedynasty1998

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Aug 8, 2010 7:59 PM
centralbucksfan;445746 wrote:He also got done, what Cal couldn't do this past season, by meeting expectations with the Oden frosh laden team. Obviously not an easy task.


So anyone thinking Matta or OSU have "underachievied" for the MOST part...are in fact, making IGNORANT statements.
Why do you find it necessary to compare him to Calipari? No one even mentioned him.

And if you would have read the discussion above, it was about underachieving in tourney play. No question he has exceeded expectations in the regular season.
centralbucksfan;445748 wrote:Rarely? LOL Your smarter then that, and know better. Have you been in the locker room at half for all the games? Give me a break. So you sound like the common Mr. Armchair QB.

"In Game" adjustments are highly overrated in most all sports.

You are joking right? First off, no I haven't sat in the lockeroom. But there is something call the eye test, and one can watch the game and notice a team that makes adjustments. Like sometimes, a guy isn't playing well and gets pulled. Or a man to man defense isn't working, so you go to a zone. Or a team is doubling the post on the entry pass, and you change up your plays.

Matta can be very stubborn in his ways and sometimes it hurts him. No one here is bashing him or calling for his head, it's just discussion on Matta.
Aug 8, 2010 7:59pm
thedynasty1998's avatar

thedynasty1998

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Aug 8, 2010 8:00 PM
centralbucksfan;445748 wrote:"In Game" adjustments are highly overrated in most all sports.

BTW, you are smarter than that. This might be one of the dumbest comments I've heard from you.
Aug 8, 2010 8:00pm
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centralbucksfan

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Aug 8, 2010 8:47 PM
Laley23;442266 wrote:Yep, its ignorant....

Do you even know what the comment was made about? Jesus, you mention shit that has no bearing on the topic at hand....the NCAA tournament.

Outside of the Oden team, he has underachieved. The only people who would tell you otherwise are OSU fans.

Not Eligible
2nd round
NIT
First Round
Sweet Sixteen

Thats 3 NCAAs, and all three are losing to lower seeds, and twice losing in the opening weekend and twice as the #2 seed.

And Jesus, you respond to shit that has NO bearing on the topic at hand!! ;) I knew exactly what you were talking about.

What you fail to recognize are circumstances that affected not making the NCAA the one season, and of course the other had nothing to do with Matta.

Losing to a lower seed isn't always an 'upset" as seeding can be very subjective especially when you make it to the sweet 16. His second season, arguably Matta best coaching, that team overachieved BIG time. And this past season, the same. Both deserving of #2 seed...but neither quite "that" good.
Not saying Matta is all this and that...but the guy deserves some props for what he has done, and is doing at OSU.

Lets not forget...he is only 42, and only been a head coach for 10yrs who happens to avg. 25 wins per season as a head coach.
Aug 8, 2010 8:47pm
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centralbucksfan

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Aug 8, 2010 8:48 PM
thedynasty1998;445759 wrote:BTW, you are smarter than that. This might be one of the dumbest comments I've heard from you.

Ya, Ok Mr. Wooden. Keep forgettting, you played big time D2 and know it all. My bad.
Aug 8, 2010 8:48pm