Glory Days
Posts: 7,809
May 5, 2010 10:50pm
ummmm what did the driver or passengers do to make the cop think he was there illegally? the cop still needs to explain why he thinks the person is here illegally.Sykotyk wrote: Okay, so there's 14 cars driving each 5mph over the speed limit. One has a hispanic male driving with two other hispanic males in the car. The cop pulls him over (he was breaking the law, afterall). Then gives reason to believe he's not a US citizen and demands proof. Same with those in the car.
He did have lawful contact. He did break the law. But, the discriminatory nature of the law will allow B.S. like this to take place.
There's no other way around it than to say that white/black people will be overlooked, while hispanic/Mexican/brown people will be required to do something different.
That is discrimination. And that is illegal. Sorry, equal protection requires you treat them the same.
Sykotyk
LJ
Posts: 16,351
May 5, 2010 10:50pm
The state can enforce that...........tk421 wrote:Uh huh, how likely is it that the federal government would ever do that? I have a better chance of getting struck by lightening. In the mean time, let's not worry about securing the border.You can contract that right away. So fine employers who employ illegals more, even jail them. Crack down on fake ID places. So on and so on.
and again with the straw man....
No one has EVER said ANYTHING about not enforcing border patrol policies or even strengthening them.
tk421
Posts: 8,500
May 5, 2010 10:50pm
That would require the government do something, which they have shown they won't do. So, that idea is out.I Wear Pants wrote: I think jail time for knowingly hiring illegals would go a lot further to stop the problem then fines or this bill.
tk421
Posts: 8,500
May 5, 2010 10:51pm
Please, we have thousands of border patrol, yet hundreds of thousands of illegals still pour into this country yearly. Clearly, they are doing such a good job. When is the last time any employer has ever been fined a huge amount that would deter them from hiring illegals? I've never heard of it happening.LJ wrote:The state can enforce that...........tk421 wrote:Uh huh, how likely is it that the federal government would ever do that? I have a better chance of getting struck by lightening. In the mean time, let's not worry about securing the border.You can contract that right away. So fine employers who employ illegals more, even jail them. Crack down on fake ID places. So on and so on.
and again with the straw man....
No one has EVER said ANYTHING about not enforcing border patrol policies or even strengthening them.
LJ
Posts: 16,351
May 5, 2010 10:52pm
The state can enforce that, so that idea is definitely back on the table.tk421 wrote:That would require the government do something, which they have shown they won't do. So, that idea is out.I Wear Pants wrote: I think jail time for knowingly hiring illegals would go a lot further to stop the problem then fines or this bill.
LJ
Posts: 16,351
May 5, 2010 10:52pm
ok so we agree? :huh::huh::huh:tk421 wrote:Please, we have thousands of border patrol, yet hundreds of thousands of illegals still pour into this country yearly. Clearly, they are doing such a good job.LJ wrote:The state can enforce that...........tk421 wrote:Uh huh, how likely is it that the federal government would ever do that? I have a better chance of getting struck by lightening. In the mean time, let's not worry about securing the border.You can contract that right away. So fine employers who employ illegals more, even jail them. Crack down on fake ID places. So on and so on.
and again with the straw man....
No one has EVER said ANYTHING about not enforcing border patrol policies or even strengthening them.
tk421
Posts: 8,500
May 5, 2010 10:53pm
So, how does the state know if someone hired illegal aliens if no one can ask for citizenship? How exactly does that work? After all, can't ask them for a green card if they are pulled over, I doubt they are asking for one when they hire them. I don't see this working too well.LJ wrote:The state can enforce that, so that idea is definitely back on the table.tk421 wrote:That would require the government do something, which they have shown they won't do. So, that idea is out.I Wear Pants wrote: I think jail time for knowingly hiring illegals would go a lot further to stop the problem then fines or this bill.
Glory Days
Posts: 7,809
May 5, 2010 10:57pm
hahahahahahahahaha WOW. i cant believe that. how do you know if they are illegal? the employer cant ask them, that would be discrimination right?I Wear Pants wrote: I think jail time for knowingly hiring illegals would go a lot further to stop the problem then fines or this bill.
LJ
Posts: 16,351
May 5, 2010 10:57pm
sigh... You can contract rights away. So basically, if you are offered a job and a condition of employment is that you show proof of citizenship (you know, how LOTS of jobs do) you can either accept the job and show it, or you can deny the job and not show it. Quite the simple concept.tk421 wrote:So, how does the state know if someone hired illegal aliens if no one can ask for citizenship? How exactly does that work? After all, can't ask them for a green card if they are pulled over, I doubt they are asking for one when they hire them. I don't see this working too well.LJ wrote:The state can enforce that, so that idea is definitely back on the table.tk421 wrote:That would require the government do something, which they have shown they won't do. So, that idea is out.I Wear Pants wrote: I think jail time for knowingly hiring illegals would go a lot further to stop the problem then fines or this bill.
tk421
Posts: 8,500
May 5, 2010 10:57pm
Yeah, can't ask them for citizenship when stopped by the police but they can ask when hiring? I don't think so.Glory Days wrote:hahahahahahahahaha WOW. i cant believe that. how do you know if they are illegal? the employer cant ask them, that would be discrimination right?I Wear Pants wrote: I think jail time for knowingly hiring illegals would go a lot further to stop the problem then fines or this bill.
LJ
Posts: 16,351
May 5, 2010 10:58pm
You're better than this....Glory Days wrote:hahahahahahahahaha WOW. i cant believe that. how do you know if they are illegal? the employer cant ask them, that would be discrimination right?I Wear Pants wrote: I think jail time for knowingly hiring illegals would go a lot further to stop the problem then fines or this bill.
tk421
Posts: 8,500
May 5, 2010 10:58pm
Uh huh, I'm sure those illegals are signing contracts before starting their jobs.LJ wrote:sigh... You can contract rights away. So basically, if you are offered a job and a condition of employment is that you show proof of citizenship (you know, how LOTS of jobs do) you can either accept the job and show it, or you can deny the job and not show it. Quite the simple concept.tk421 wrote:So, how does the state know if someone hired illegal aliens if no one can ask for citizenship? How exactly does that work? After all, can't ask them for a green card if they are pulled over, I doubt they are asking for one when they hire them. I don't see this working too well.LJ wrote:The state can enforce that, so that idea is definitely back on the table.tk421 wrote:That would require the government do something, which they have shown they won't do. So, that idea is out.I Wear Pants wrote: I think jail time for knowingly hiring illegals would go a lot further to stop the problem then fines or this bill.
LJ
Posts: 16,351
May 5, 2010 10:59pm
Uh, I KNOW so, you can contract rights away.tk421 wrote:Yeah, can't ask them for citizenship when stopped by the police but they can ask when hiring? I don't think so.Glory Days wrote:hahahahahahahahaha WOW. i cant believe that. how do you know if they are illegal? the employer cant ask them, that would be discrimination right?I Wear Pants wrote: I think jail time for knowingly hiring illegals would go a lot further to stop the problem then fines or this bill.
Glory Days
Posts: 7,809
May 5, 2010 10:59pm
you are assuming they will be hired in the books etc.LJ wrote:sigh... You can contract rights away. So basically, if you are offered a job and a condition of employment is that you show proof of citizenship (you know, how LOTS of jobs do) you can either accept the job and show it, or you can deny the job and not show it. Quite the simple concept.tk421 wrote:So, how does the state know if someone hired illegal aliens if no one can ask for citizenship? How exactly does that work? After all, can't ask them for a green card if they are pulled over, I doubt they are asking for one when they hire them. I don't see this working too well.LJ wrote:The state can enforce that, so that idea is definitely back on the table.tk421 wrote:That would require the government do something, which they have shown they won't do. So, that idea is out.I Wear Pants wrote: I think jail time for knowingly hiring illegals would go a lot further to stop the problem then fines or this bill.
LJ
Posts: 16,351
May 5, 2010 11:00pm
LOL WHAT?!tk421 wrote:Uh huh, I'm sure those illegals are signing contracts before starting their jobs.LJ wrote:sigh... You can contract rights away. So basically, if you are offered a job and a condition of employment is that you show proof of citizenship (you know, how LOTS of jobs do) you can either accept the job and show it, or you can deny the job and not show it. Quite the simple concept.tk421 wrote:So, how does the state know if someone hired illegal aliens if no one can ask for citizenship? How exactly does that work? After all, can't ask them for a green card if they are pulled over, I doubt they are asking for one when they hire them. I don't see this working too well.LJ wrote:The state can enforce that, so that idea is definitely back on the table.tk421 wrote:That would require the government do something, which they have shown they won't do. So, that idea is out.I Wear Pants wrote: I think jail time for knowingly hiring illegals would go a lot further to stop the problem then fines or this bill.
They don't have to sign anything.... The employer says "a condition to you getting this job is that you have to show proof of citizenship". At that point they either take the job and show proof, or they deny the job and don't show proof.
tk421
Posts: 8,500
May 5, 2010 11:01pm
I have a sure fire way to secure our border and stop the illegal immigration problem. Build a 20 foot high barb wire topped concrete barricade across the entire border. Put sentry posts every so often for border patrol. Have signs in Spanish informing anyone who trespasses on foreign territory they will be shot on site. No exceptions. Basically, we should start treating our country like they do military bases. I'm dead serious, too. I guarantee this stops the problem.
LJ
Posts: 16,351
May 5, 2010 11:01pm
So just more crimes being committed? Criminals will be criminals am I right?Glory Days wrote:you are assuming they will be hired in the books etc.LJ wrote:sigh... You can contract rights away. So basically, if you are offered a job and a condition of employment is that you show proof of citizenship (you know, how LOTS of jobs do) you can either accept the job and show it, or you can deny the job and not show it. Quite the simple concept.tk421 wrote:So, how does the state know if someone hired illegal aliens if no one can ask for citizenship? How exactly does that work? After all, can't ask them for a green card if they are pulled over, I doubt they are asking for one when they hire them. I don't see this working too well.LJ wrote:The state can enforce that, so that idea is definitely back on the table.tk421 wrote:That would require the government do something, which they have shown they won't do. So, that idea is out.I Wear Pants wrote: I think jail time for knowingly hiring illegals would go a lot further to stop the problem then fines or this bill.
I
I Wear Pants
Posts: 16,223
May 5, 2010 11:01pm
That's what I meant by "hiring illegals". Just make harsher penalties for hiring under the table/under minimum wage.
tk421
Posts: 8,500
May 5, 2010 11:02pm
Are you serious? You actually think employers are doing that? If they did, we wouldn't be having this problem. Really. And yes, they do have to sign something. I vividly remember having to present proof of ID that the employer had to write down then we both had to sign. So, I very much doubt illegals are getting these types of jobs.LJ wrote:LOL WHAT?!tk421 wrote:Uh huh, I'm sure those illegals are signing contracts before starting their jobs.LJ wrote:sigh... You can contract rights away. So basically, if you are offered a job and a condition of employment is that you show proof of citizenship (you know, how LOTS of jobs do) you can either accept the job and show it, or you can deny the job and not show it. Quite the simple concept.tk421 wrote:So, how does the state know if someone hired illegal aliens if no one can ask for citizenship? How exactly does that work? After all, can't ask them for a green card if they are pulled over, I doubt they are asking for one when they hire them. I don't see this working too well.LJ wrote:The state can enforce that, so that idea is definitely back on the table.tk421 wrote:That would require the government do something, which they have shown they won't do. So, that idea is out.I Wear Pants wrote: I think jail time for knowingly hiring illegals would go a lot further to stop the problem then fines or this bill.
They don't have to sign anything.... The employer says "a condition to you getting this job is that you have to show proof of citizenship". At that point they either take the job and show proof, or they deny the job and don't show proof.
Glory Days
Posts: 7,809
May 5, 2010 11:03pm
dont business have a presumption of innocence too? why should they have to prove if their employees are legal or not?
I
I Wear Pants
Posts: 16,223
May 5, 2010 11:03pm
Then make employers do that. Seems easy.
LJ
Posts: 16,351
May 5, 2010 11:04pm
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:tk421 wrote:Are you serious? You actually think employers are doing that? If they did, we wouldn't be having this problem. Really.LJ wrote:LOL WHAT?!tk421 wrote:Uh huh, I'm sure those illegals are signing contracts before starting their jobs.LJ wrote:sigh... You can contract rights away. So basically, if you are offered a job and a condition of employment is that you show proof of citizenship (you know, how LOTS of jobs do) you can either accept the job and show it, or you can deny the job and not show it. Quite the simple concept.tk421 wrote:So, how does the state know if someone hired illegal aliens if no one can ask for citizenship? How exactly does that work? After all, can't ask them for a green card if they are pulled over, I doubt they are asking for one when they hire them. I don't see this working too well.LJ wrote:The state can enforce that, so that idea is definitely back on the table.tk421 wrote:That would require the government do something, which they have shown they won't do. So, that idea is out.I Wear Pants wrote: I think jail time for knowingly hiring illegals would go a lot further to stop the problem then fines or this bill.
They don't have to sign anything.... The employer says "a condition to you getting this job is that you have to show proof of citizenship". At that point they either take the job and show proof, or they deny the job and don't show proof.
LJ
Posts: 16,351
May 5, 2010 11:07pm
I have to tell the gov't how much money I made and how many employees I have and every employee I have had on the payroll or paid money to. A simple investigation would solve that problem if I had all illegals working for me and never claimed an employee or 1099 but a gov't investigator came to my work site and found people working for me. They will then require info of who is working for me because they will have a tax fraud case, aka PROBABLE CAUSE, against meGlory Days wrote: dont business have a presumption of innocence too? why should they have to prove if their employees are legal or not?
Glory Days
Posts: 7,809
May 5, 2010 11:07pm
for some reason, Starship Troopers popped into my head "Service guarantees citizenship!"
LJ
Posts: 16,351
May 5, 2010 11:08pm
I'd be cool with an infantry full of illegals trying to gain citizenship statusGlory Days wrote: for some reason, Starship Troopers popped into my head "Service guarantees citizenship!"