bigmanbt wrote: Some of you guys need to learn a lesson that many don't seem to know; businessmen DO NOT like capitalism. Businessmen like whatever system allows them to make more money. Capitalism keeps the best check on business through competition, given the laws of the land promote competition and not hinder competition. Our policies over the last 100 years have not promoted competition, and therefore you get those huge, corrupt businesses who can profit off of "paying" the politicians. In true capitalism, a government would have no say in the market except in areas where private industry cannot profitably provide the service or to construct laws to promote competition (i.e. monopoly and anti-trust matters) in the private sector. People saying we have capitalism here and it's failed need to look again, because it's not our capitalist principals failing us, it's the collectivist policies we've adopted that hinder true capitalism from prevailing.

"The vice of capitalism is that it stands for the unequal sharing of blessings; whereas the virtue of socialism is that it stands for the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill

I agree that our system is NOT pure capitalism. We call it capitalism because people like that word better than others.

Michael Moore is a propagandist. He claims to make documentaries, but academically and journalistically, he is dishonest and a fraud. Moore's MO is to take facts, intersperse them with emotion images, and string them together so as to lead the viewer to a conclusion that is not necessarily warranted or the truth. His facts might be correct...the images heart-renderingly real, but they do not necessarily follow from each other. Moore knows that, but his goal is not the truth ... it is to convince people of his leftist, hateful take on America.
To be fair to him(something he is not to his 'subjects') I haven't seen this particular film.... Nor do I intend to. But I have seen enough of this creature to realize that I'll not patronize any more of his films and hence give the slimeball any of my money. I find him disgusting, he nauseates me, and I'm just NOT going to watch anything else he puts together.


So Moore is blaming capitalism for the bailout? That's rich (pun intended). Let's not forget the wonderful government's role in all of this..... lessening of lending standards so people could get loans that they weren't qualified for....the politicians could have said 'no' to a bailout and let 'capitalism' work and weed out the 'bad' bankers who made the risky loans....etc etc.
So wait.....we want to trust healthcare to them?....hahaha. Sicko man.

^^Great post- can't believe it took til page 2 for someone to nail that.

Some of you need to take a step back and look at what you have in this country. Yes, there are greedy individuals and corporations while a lot of folks struggle to make ends meet. Guess what- welcome to REALITY. There's no perfect economic system and there will always be (and always has been) unequal outcomes of wealth and success in any society. The difference with Marxism is that instead of greedy corporate execs having "too much" its the government who owns everything, ruins the human spirit of hard work, creativity, and ingenuity, and then EVERYBODY is poor.

If capitalism and America are so terrible, why have millions of poor, non-English speaking immigrants risked all to have a fresh start here with no wealth to speak of, all so they could obtain the promise of freedom? It never ceases to amaze me how people are willing to give up their freedom so they can obtain some measure of economic security from the government (which is really not security at all) and so they can see rich individuals/corporations punished by that same government.

And Michael Moore is a joke. Nothing like a little class warfare propaganda to warp people's minds. Then again, if people feel they are owed certain "rights" not enumerated by the Constitution, and are willing to trade the freedom that so many fought and died for, maybe they deserve to be deceived by a Michael Moore film.

MM has to be laughing his considerable butt off at how he's fooled some of you folks.

If ever someone used the capitalistic system to make as much as he could, it's Moore -- and then he turns around and convinces the same fools who shelled out their dollars to believe his anti-capitalism, leftist rant in the process.

Too rich.

How has he fooled anyone?

The only new thing that I saw on here was the whole Dead Peasant Insurance thing.

I'm not bashing capitalism. Never once have I said that Capitalism is bad and the U.S. should switch its economic system.

This movie concentrated more on big business and corporate America vs. the people/workers more than anything else. He might be blaming it on Capitalism, but I really don't find that accurate.

I liked what he said about having businesses being run like a democracy, at least in principle. I found it interesting how the company in Wisconsin was run. It's funny though because people will call this Socialism. But for some reason in government it's call Democracy.

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, there is a factory of around 100 people. They all have a seat in the "board room" and all reap the benefits of the the profits.

bigkahuna wrote>>>
"This movie concentrated more on big business and corporate America vs. the people/workers more than anything else"


This, of course, is how Dennis Kuchinich has made a living all these years...convince the "liitle guy" that his problems are really the fault of someone else (banks, big business, the rich)....and not the result of their own choices. Class warfare at it's finest. It is so much easier to accept that I'm being abused by my employer paying me minimum wage with no benefits, than getting mad at myself for fucking off and smoking grass in high school, not going to college and developing no skills.



Let's see if I can guess how Moore shows it..... FACT...a company in Wisconsin has emplotyees that sit in the board room and get a share of the profits. FACT...GM and it's employees squabbling over wages. Fact...Bankers get a bonus. Fact...GM workers get laid off and lose home.

Moore's leads you to the conclusion...that GM executives and Bankers are getting rich on the backs of workers who are getting thrown out of their homes....and it doesn't have to be that way...look at that business in Wisconsin!

All of the facts are true, the images of people losing their homes are real and tear at your heart, and Moore weaves them together skillfully.

BUT...none of these 'facts' really are necessarily related and lead definitively to the conclusion that Moore portrays.
Nowhere in Moore's schtick is the fact that GM is forced into an adversarial relationship with it's employees by a powerful labor union....that labor costs and benefits make GM's product less competitive in the market..and hence the layoffs. That government issues directives to 'help' more people to qualify for loans that maybe they really can't afford. And what?...no love for the bank VP getting a bonus for doing his job well? He's an 'employee' too!.


Once you realize what Moore is doing, it is easy to see thru him, and realize the fraud and propagndist he really is. He is a slimebucket journalistically....far worse than just 'slanted' reporting that people complain about on the major networks. He is even worse than Rush Limbaugh who is at least honest in where he is coming from.

Slimebucket= people that let America become what it is.
Slimebucket= people who let foreign steel kill our mills.
Slimebucket= people who do not care about the blue collar workers who have lost their jobs.
Slimebucket= people that worry about other countries when "home" needs help.
Slimebucket= too many people in this country.

That may be true, but those who are only out for themselves and lie and cheat, cut across all economic strata, and are not confined to to the upper and upper mddle class. There are plenty of wealthy people who's generosity and philantropy is unchallenged.

HitsRus wrote: There are plenty of wealthy people who's generosity and philantropy is unchallenged.

Yeah, I wonder if MM will ever do a documentary on those folks?
::cough, cough::

HitsRus wrote: There are plenty of wealthy people who's generosity and philantropy is unchallenged.

You mean Bill Gates and Warren Buffet?

HitsRus wrote: That may be true, but those who are only out for themselves and lie and cheat, cut across all economic strata, and are not confined to to the upper and upper mddle class.

Don't forget many are firmly ensconced in government as well.

I Wear Pants wrote:

HitsRus wrote: There are plenty of wealthy people who's generosity and philantropy is unchallenged.

You mean Bill Gates and Warren Buffet?

Don't forget the Oprah.

The Oprah.

I Wear Pants wrote: The Oprah.

You don't know the Oprah?

Her ^^

Yep, that is the Oprah.

Haha THE Oprah.

Moore does talk about the Unions, but in a positive light. I'm not real big on Unions, or what they have become today. The only person who has my best interest in mind and needs to speak on my behalf is me.

capitalism is what makes this country great. it is based on the idea that hard work pays off and one should be payed what they truly worth. for example should a doctor who worked hard in school and studied in school be paid the same as a fry cook in mcdonalds who screwed off in school? absolutley not.

HitsRus wrote: bigkahuna wrote>>>
"This movie concentrated more on big business and corporate America vs. the people/workers more than anything else"


This, of course, is how Dennis Kuchinich has made a living all these years...convince the "liitle guy" that his problems are really the fault of someone else (banks, big business, the rich)....and not the result of their own choices. Class warfare at it's finest. It is so much easier to accept that I'm being abused by my employer paying me minimum wage with no benefits, than getting mad at myself for fucking off and smoking grass in high school, not going to college and developing no skills.



Let's see if I can guess how Moore shows it..... FACT...a company in Wisconsin has emplotyees that sit in the board room and get a share of the profits. FACT...GM and it's employees squabbling over wages. Fact...Bankers get a bonus. Fact...GM workers get laid off and lose home.

Moore's leads you to the conclusion...that GM executives and Bankers are getting rich on the backs of workers who are getting thrown out of their homes....and it doesn't have to be that way...look at that business in Wisconsin!

All of the facts are true, the images of people losing their homes are real and tear at your heart, and Moore weaves them together skillfully.

BUT...none of these 'facts' really are necessarily related and lead definitively to the conclusion that Moore portrays.
Nowhere in Moore's schtick is the fact that GM is forced into an adversarial relationship with it's employees by a powerful labor union....that labor costs and benefits make GM's product less competitive in the market..and hence the layoffs. That government issues directives to 'help' more people to qualify for loans that maybe they really can't afford. And what?...no love for the bank VP getting a bonus for doing his job well? He's an 'employee' too!.


Once you realize what Moore is doing, it is easy to see thru him, and realize the fraud and propagndist he really is. He is a slimebucket journalistically....far worse than just 'slanted' reporting that people complain about on the major networks. He is even worse than Rush Limbaugh who is at least honest in where he is coming from.

Really?

I guarantee that anyone on this forum can think of a few people that flew right, went to college, and have skills but are struggling to get by if not failing because businesses are way more cricked than they used to be.


I guess my problem the big wigs is that they are in control of the company and give themselves bonuses. Kind of like Congress voting to give itself a raise. If any of us could name our price, we obviously would.

I agree that the government/banks are/were too loose with who they gave loans to. A family making $100,000/year can't afford a $300,000+ house, but they told them they can. Like I said before, some honesty all around would go a LONG way.

rookie_j70 wrote: capitalism is what makes this country great. it is based on the idea that hard work pays off and one should be payed what they truly worth. for example should a doctor who worked hard in school and studied in school be paid the same as a fry cook in mcdonalds who screwed off in school? absolutley not.

Which is why our country isn't really a capitalistic society because we see things like this happen.

An assembly line worker (Non-union) makes 50,000+ starting out.
A McDonald's manager makes right around 30,000.

A teacher if they are lucky makes around 32,000 starting out. That's with 4 years of busting their ass in school.

An RN will earn somewhere between 35-40 starting out.

rookie_j70 wrote: capitalism is what makes this country great. it is based on the idea that hard work pays off and one should be payed what they truly worth. for example should a doctor who worked hard in school and studied in school be paid the same as a fry cook in mcdonalds who screwed off in school? absolutley not.

I'm glad you bring this point up. What did you want to be when you grew up? Going through my final 2 years of High School, my father pulled me in every direction possible to follow in his footsteps and work in the steel mill. Good money, you can make a decent living, but WAY before I was even in H.S. the mills were failing. Because I was pushed into working as a steel worker all through school, I never got a chance to look at my options and what i wanted to do. I worked briefly in the mill before I decided that wasn't the job i wanted to do all my life. My father was upset, told me that he would not help me with any college costs and said good luck. I started volunteering as a fireman and EMT. I LOVED the EMS side of things. I decided that i would go work for the local ambulance company and see how I liked it. Turned out I LOVED it. I loved working with people, doing something new every day, and helping people that needed help. Problem was when I started, the pay rate was $7.25 an hr. I work 24 hour shifts, when the company was short on manpower, I usually worked 72 hours straight. Most of the time with no sleep. I have been shot at, plugged stab wounds of people who tell us they have deadly diseases, I have been exposed to all kinds of nasty airborne viruses from patients, and i work my ass off every day I come to work even though my day could turn into someone's worst nightmare. One wrong move at this job could cost you your life. So are people that are hard workers really getting paid what they are worth? I will gladly let anyone who thinks our current economy and corporate structure is competent work a day in my shoes for my pay.

I had to go to school for what I do, some high profile company exec. just might be in my care someday and their life might just depend on the guy that busts his ass and risks it for mere pennies.

I refuse to lick someones rear end to make money. I believe in a hard days work for a hard days pay. Problem is the hard days are every day and the pay never comes in form of money, it comes in self gratification.

The company I work for has a monopoly on this area. They are a multi-million dollar company, therfore they pay us next to nothing because in this area, good jobs are hard to come by and this one leave no threat of lay-off. They get away with it because they can. We attempted to go union a while back and the owner gave everyone a vacation without pay, brought in workers from another ambulance service over 80 miles away, and paid them 35 buck an hour to cover the business until we changed our minds about the union. Now tell me whats fair about that? I forgot to mention that our owner is a lawyer as well... A union lawyer. We have absolutely NO CHANCE to better ourselves in this profession and its because the "system" just doesn't care about the blue collared worker... Its about maximizing your bottom line as a business owner and monopolies.

So, my question to you is this... It sounds like you make a very comfortable living doing what you do and these kinds of things are not on your dinner plate. So what did you do in life that makes you more important than the rest of the people that love what they do, but are compensated far less than they should be?

....and have you stopped beating your wife?....same kind of question.

Seriously...what do you suggest should be done? The government step in and set wage controls just for you...or for everybody? Whose gonna make the call as to what is fair? How much is Michael Moore and his crappy films worth? I have no doubt that you are worth more. If I'm setting the price, Mike is NOT going to be happy.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=michaelmoore09.htm

Total Lifetime Grosses
Domestic: $14,363,397 82.4%
+ Foreign: $3,073,112 17.6%
= Worldwide: $17,436,509

http://boxofficemojo.com/people/chart/?id=michaelmoore.htm

Lifetime Gross Total (7): $187,264,678

HitsRus wrote: ....and have you stopped beating your wife?....same kind of question.

Seriously...what do you suggest should be done? The government step in and set wage controls just for you...or for everybody? Whose gonna make the call as to what is fair? How much is Michael Moore and his crappy films worth? I have no doubt that you are worth more. If I'm setting the price, Mike is NOT going to be happy.

You have twisted this way out of context... You pulling a Michael Moore all by yourself. The point is that employees should be able to file for union representation without fear for their job. Its not about special treatment for this person or that person, its about fair compensation for employees who risk more on a day to day basis than some pencil pushing jerkoff that is easily manipulated sucking the company D to get ahead. Twice here we have attempted to become union workers and both times it was leaked to management who was able to put a stop to it. Sure, once the motion is made for union representation, the employees are supposed to be protected... UNLESS the owner of the company has one or more of those pencil pushing jerkoffs paid to talk. I am not looking to make millions... i do not need millions to make me happy. What I do want is fair treatment and representation as an employee and have a voice. These things are not over the top and unfair, but the "system" is failing here and its because the people with more money than they know what to do with need more and more to satisfy themselves while the employees struggle to make ends meet.


And BTW, I would NEVER hit a woman... I'm not a political man. Just a hard worker that wants a fair chance.

I apologize. My point was to expose Moore for the disingenuous sort that he is.... not antagonize you. Jerks come in all sorts of packages...it is usually best to just remove yourself from there vicinity. Even if you would unionize...he'd still be a jerk to work for.