2quik4u wrote: now i'm not justifying what happened here, but you have to understand this is going to happen every once in awhile no matter what

One has to wonder exactly what "once in awhile" truly means. The only reason this video made it to public eyes was due to the overwhelming persistance of Reuters International.

Some believe that this was an isolated incident. My take, shooting randomly and killing randomly is a lot more pervasive in the operation of Iraqi Freedom (sic).

2quik4u wrote: http://blog.ajmartinez.com/2010/04/05/wikileaks-collateral-murder/

Between 3:13 and 3:30 it is quite clear to me, as both a former infantry sergeant and a photographer, that the two men central to the gun-camera’s frame are carrying photographic equipment. This much is noted by WikiLeaks, and misidentified by the crew of Crazyhorse 18. At 3:39, the men central to the frame are armed, the one on the far left with some AK variant, and the one in the center with an RPG. The RPG is crystal clear even in the downsized, very low-resolution, video between 3:40 and 3:45 when the man carrying it turns counter-clockwise and then back to the direction of the Apache. This all goes by without any mention whatsoever from WikiLeaks, and that is unacceptable.

This part can be pushed into the mistake column. The second round of "engagement" defies all logical thinking in defeating the enemy. There was a wounded man, whether he is an insurgent or an innocent civilian...doesn't matter...... was being tended to by health care personnel from an unarmored bus..

Does the military have a policy of "take no prisoners"?

God help us all if the military views the second round of blasts as proper protocol.

the only mistake made here was the reporters being with the enemy.

the iraqi army and police are not allowed to have RPGs, atleast where i was in baghdad. so target identification wouldnt have been hard here. plus many insurgents use cameras to video their attacks to get paid. and many times vans or trucks are used to transport insurgents and their dead after attacks, the van showing up is nothing new.

interesting how they say "attack on civilians". no, it was an attack on insurgents where civilians were killed accidentally. gotta love how they dont show the whole clip either, but what do you expect from someone called wikileaks. oh wait, the video is "as sure as anyone can of anything in real life".

Footwedge wrote:

2quik4u wrote: http://blog.ajmartinez.com/2010/04/05/wikileaks-collateral-murder/

Between 3:13 and 3:30 it is quite clear to me, as both a former infantry sergeant and a photographer, that the two men central to the gun-camera’s frame are carrying photographic equipment. This much is noted by WikiLeaks, and misidentified by the crew of Crazyhorse 18. At 3:39, the men central to the frame are armed, the one on the far left with some AK variant, and the one in the center with an RPG. The RPG is crystal clear even in the downsized, very low-resolution, video between 3:40 and 3:45 when the man carrying it turns counter-clockwise and then back to the direction of the Apache. This all goes by without any mention whatsoever from WikiLeaks, and that is unacceptable.

This part can be pushed into the mistake column. The second round of "engagement" defies all logical thinking in defeating the enemy. There was a wounded man, whether he is an insurgent or an innocent civilian...doesn't matter...... was being tended to by health care personnel from an unarmored bus..

Does the military have a policy of "take no prisoners"?

God help us all if the military views the second round of blasts as proper protocol.

unless those medical personnel were with the red cross or crescent moon, they are targets too. even a wounded insurgent can pull the trigger on an AK-47 and RPG.

"It is my conviction that killing
under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
- Albert Einstein

Glory Days wrote:
unless those medical personnel were with the red cross or crescent moon, they are targets too. even a wounded insurgent can pull the trigger on an AK-47 and RPG.

View the end of the video. The injured man was completely unarmed and nary a threat to anyone....just a human being clinging to life.

The unarmored bus that was shredded was merely transportation to the hospital.

Footwedge, have you ever served in the military?? Did you watch Band of Brothers???

Footwedge wrote:

Glory Days wrote:
unless those medical personnel were with the red cross or crescent moon, they are targets too. even a wounded insurgent can pull the trigger on an AK-47 and RPG.

View the end of the video. The injured man was completely unarmed and nary a threat to anyone....just a human being clinging to life.

The unarmored bus that was shredded was merely transportation to the hospital.

hahahaha the comedy is getting good in here. that injured man clinging to life would have happily pulled the pin on a grenade as US Soldiers walked up to him.

Footwedge wrote: "It is my conviction that killing
under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
- Albert Einstein

"Stupid is as stupid does"- Forrest Gump.

the lesson, dont walk around with insurgents.

Footwedge wrote:

Glory Days wrote:
unless those medical personnel were with the red cross or crescent moon, they are targets too. even a wounded insurgent can pull the trigger on an AK-47 and RPG.

View the end of the video. The injured man was completely unarmed and nary a threat to anyone....just a human being clinging to life.

The unarmored bus that was shredded was merely transportation to the hospital.

You don't know any of this. How do you know the van was transportation to a hospital? How do you know the men were unarmed? How do you know the van didn't have armed occupants?

You dont.

Mr. 300 wrote: Footwedge, have you ever served in the military?? Did you watch Band of Brothers???

Never served in the military. Was drafted to do so for Vietnam, but Nixon ended the war after my first physical.

I admit it. I would have made a horrible soldier. I'm not into shooting and killing people. Never appealed to me in the least.

If the United States was truly threatened, which we haven't been since WWII and I was called on to actually defend our country, well that is a different story.

the lesson, dont walk around with insurgents.

What is sad....you actually spent time over there....and as such....you would know that virtualy all civilians had to intermingle amongst insurgents.

Your tacit approval regarding this event is remarkable. You OK with what Lt. Calley did as well?

Declaring war and then invading a country does not permit one to commit cold blooded murder.

WebFire wrote:

You don't know any of this. How do you know the van was transportation to a hospital? How do you know the men were unarmed? How do you know the van didn't have armed occupants?

You dont.

Apparently you didn't have the stomach to watch the video. The vehicle was a fuggin bus/van...not an armored vehicle.

So my assumption that this vehicle would have been headed to the hospital is wrong?

Where else do vehicles go after scraping off the ground a mortally wounded individual? The amusement park?

Footwedge wrote:I admit it. I would have made a horrible soldier. I'm not into shooting and killing people. Never appealed to me in the least.

You're not insinuating that those who choose to serve are "into shooting and killing people" are you?

I served for 9 years and I didn't know one person in my military experience who was into shooting and killing people. But most were willing to do so if called upon by their commanders to do it.

Footwedge wrote:

Mr. 300 wrote: Footwedge, have you ever served in the military?? Did you watch Band of Brothers???

Never served in the military. Was drafted to do so for Vietnam, but Nixon ended the war after my first physical.

I admit it. I would have made a horrible soldier. I'm not into shooting and killing people. Never appealed to me in the least.

If the United States was truly threatened, which we haven't been since WWII and I was called on to actually defend our country, well that is a different story.

the fuck was 9/11 then?

2quik4u wrote:the fuck was 9/11 then?

Naw that doesn't count. The United States deserved that attack because of our imperialism, decadence, and infidel nature.

You don't shoot people trying to medically help someone.

believer wrote:

2quik4u wrote:the fuck was 9/11 then?

Naw that doesn't count. The United States deserved that attack because of our imperialism, decadence, and infidel nature.

Iraq had nothing to do with that.

2quik4u wrote:

Footwedge wrote:

Mr. 300 wrote: Footwedge, have you ever served in the military?? Did you watch Band of Brothers???

Never served in the military. Was drafted to do so for Vietnam, but Nixon ended the war after my first physical.

I admit it. I would have made a horrible soldier. I'm not into shooting and killing people. Never appealed to me in the least.

If the United States was truly threatened, which we haven't been since WWII and I was called on to actually defend our country, well that is a different story.

the fuck was 9/11 then?

Had nothing to do with 9-11. This topic doesn't even discuss the Iraq invasion. It's a specific event that the military tried desparately to cover up. Just like they did whenever Pat Tillman was murdered for his outspoken negative opinions regarding Iraq.

Footwedge wrote:

the lesson, dont walk around with insurgents.

What is sad....you actually spent time over there....and as such....you would know that virtualy all civilians had to intermingle amongst insurgents.

Your tacit approval regarding this event is remarkable. You OK with what Lt. Calley did as well?

Declaring war and then invading a country does not permit one to commit cold blooded murder.

no, civilians get the fuck out of dodge when insurgents are going to attack. and they dont help insurgents, they try and stay away from them. we did not attack civilians in this incident, we attacked insurgents. you seem to be missing that.

Footwedge wrote:

WebFire wrote:

You don't know any of this. How do you know the van was transportation to a hospital? How do you know the men were unarmed? How do you know the van didn't have armed occupants?

You dont.

Apparently you didn't have the stomach to watch the video. The vehicle was a fuggin bus/van...not an armored vehicle.

So my assumption that this vehicle would have been headed to the hospital is wrong?

Where else do vehicles go after scraping off the ground a mortally wounded individual? The amusement park?

insurgents dont have armored vehicles. they use regular pick up trucks and vans. civilians there dont help insurgents, and its pretty clear by the people carrying RPGs, they were insurgents since no Iraqi(even the police and army) are allowed to have RPGs.

there are plenty of videos out there showing insurgents attack or set up IEDs with van or truck. i guess we cant attack them because its not an armored vehicle?

Footwedge wrote:

2quik4u wrote:

Footwedge wrote:

Mr. 300 wrote: Footwedge, have you ever served in the military?? Did you watch Band of Brothers???

Never served in the military. Was drafted to do so for Vietnam, but Nixon ended the war after my first physical.

I admit it. I would have made a horrible soldier. I'm not into shooting and killing people. Never appealed to me in the least.

If the United States was truly threatened, which we haven't been since WWII and I was called on to actually defend our country, well that is a different story.

the fuck was 9/11 then?

Had nothing to do with 9-11. This topic doesn't even discuss the Iraq invasion. It's a specific event that the military tried desparately to cover up. Just like they did whenever Pat Tillman was murdered for his outspoken negative opinions regarding Iraq.

cover up? how come the reporter the video talks about that was there right after the incident and even mentioned it in his/her book did not go straight to the press with it 3 years ago when it happend?

believer wrote:
I served for 9 years and I didn't know one person in my military experience who was into shooting and killing people. But most were willing to do so if called upon by their commanders to do it.

You were trained to shoot people. That's one of the main things they teach you.

Whether you were into it or not, that's what you were hired on to do. That's not for me. I've already admitted. I would be a horrible soldier.

1. It's war, shit happens. Things slip through the cracks.
2. The conduct of the Apache pilots does not serve as an accurate representation of the U.S. military as a whole. The U.S. military has made clear that they are extremely cautious about causalities.
3. It is a sad, yet isolated incident that happens in the fog of war. I'm not blaming the reports, or the civilians, but it appears they did not follow proper procedures regarding press identifications. That doesn't justify the attack, but it should be noted.
4. The U.S. has been threatened, during the Cold War, with the threat of thermonuclear war from the Soviet Union. Deterrence was not always stable and there were many near misses.
5. 9/11 did not actually threaten the very existence of the U.S. It was a body blow yes, but did not threaten the very existence of what it is to be America.

Footwedge wrote:Just like they did whenever Pat Tillman was murdered for his outspoken negative opinions regarding Iraq.

I bet it was a plot hatched by the dreaded neocons. What good does it do to throw out accusations like this without proof? There is no hard evidence to support this conspiracy theory.

when did Pat Tillman speak out against Iraq? must have missed that headline.