HighRoller74 wrote: You're missing the point. The rings should have no bearing on this whatsoever. Rings are a team award, 1 player has never, nor will they ever win a championship by themselves.

Give Lebron the teams Kobe's played on and he'd have the same amount if not more rings. If Kobe played on the same teams that Lebron has had, and he'd be sitting at zero rings. And I mean this really isn't even a debate.

'00-'02
Lakers Key Players
Shaq
Kobe
Fisher
Horry
Fox
Brian Shaw
Glenn Rice
Ron Harper

'09
Lakers Championship Starters
Pau Gasol
Kobe
Ariza
Fisher
Bynum

with Lamar Odom, who would start on every other team coming off the bench.

'06 Cavaliers
Z
Gooden
Lebron
Eric Snow (Seriously)
Larry Hughes.

There isn't an NBA player dead or alive that could've won being the lead man on that Cavs team.

You honestly cannot blame Lebron for not having superstars put around him like Kobe has had his whole career. Nor can you blame Kobe for being given them, it just illustrates why the rings have absolutely no value when trying to determine who the better player is.

Of course the Ring argument has no value to the Lebron Nuthuggers.
I guarantee you if it were reversed and Lebron had 4 Rings and Kobe had none Cavs fans would be throwing the Ring Argument into every single conversation involving Lebron vs Kobe.
First it was Kobe couldn't win one without Shaq. Then he had to win one and be the "Main Guy". Then he wins one without Shaq and is the Finals MVP, the "Main Guy" and now its well he got Gasol handed to them even though Gasol never won a Playoff game in his life (0-12) until he played with Kobe.
The Rings matter because the Lakers and Kobe had to go thru argubaly the deepest Western Conference ever and they did it twice in row.

Skyhook79 wrote:

HighRoller74 wrote: You're missing the point. The rings should have no bearing on this whatsoever. Rings are a team award, 1 player has never, nor will they ever win a championship by themselves.

Give Lebron the teams Kobe's played on and he'd have the same amount if not more rings. If Kobe played on the same teams that Lebron has had, and he'd be sitting at zero rings. And I mean this really isn't even a debate.

'00-'02
Lakers Key Players
Shaq
Kobe
Fisher
Horry
Fox
Brian Shaw
Glenn Rice
Ron Harper

'09
Lakers Championship Starters
Pau Gasol
Kobe
Ariza
Fisher
Bynum

with Lamar Odom, who would start on every other team coming off the bench.

'06 Cavaliers
Z
Gooden
Lebron
Eric Snow (Seriously)
Larry Hughes.

There isn't an NBA player dead or alive that could've won being the lead man on that Cavs team.

You honestly cannot blame Lebron for not having superstars put around him like Kobe has had his whole career. Nor can you blame Kobe for being given them, it just illustrates why the rings have absolutely no value when trying to determine who the better player is.

Of course the Ring argument has no value to the Lebron Nuthuggers.
I guarantee you if it were reversed and Lebron had 4 Rings and Kobe had none Cavs fans would be throwing the Ring Argument into every single conversation involving Lebron vs Kobe.
First it was Kobe couldn't win one without Shaq. Then he had to win one and be the "Main Guy". Then he wins one without Shaq and is the Finals MVP, the "Main Guy" and now its well he got Gasol handed to them even though Gasol never won a Playoff game in his life (0-12) until he played with Kobe.
The Rings matter because the Lakers and Kobe had to go thru argubaly the deepest Western Conference ever and they did it twice in row.

THIS!

Skyhook79 wrote:

HighRoller74 wrote: You're missing the point. The rings should have no bearing on this whatsoever. Rings are a team award, 1 player has never, nor will they ever win a championship by themselves.

Give Lebron the teams Kobe's played on and he'd have the same amount if not more rings. If Kobe played on the same teams that Lebron has had, and he'd be sitting at zero rings. And I mean this really isn't even a debate.

'00-'02
Lakers Key Players
Shaq
Kobe
Fisher
Horry
Fox
Brian Shaw
Glenn Rice
Ron Harper

'09
Lakers Championship Starters
Pau Gasol
Kobe
Ariza
Fisher
Bynum

with Lamar Odom, who would start on every other team coming off the bench.

'06 Cavaliers
Z
Gooden
Lebron
Eric Snow (Seriously)
Larry Hughes.

There isn't an NBA player dead or alive that could've won being the lead man on that Cavs team.

You honestly cannot blame Lebron for not having superstars put around him like Kobe has had his whole career. Nor can you blame Kobe for being given them, it just illustrates why the rings have absolutely no value when trying to determine who the better player is.

Of course the Ring argument has no value to the Lebron Nuthuggers.
I guarantee you if it were reversed and Lebron had 4 Rings and Kobe had none Cavs fans would be throwing the Ring Argument into every single conversation involving Lebron vs Kobe.
First it was Kobe couldn't win one without Shaq. Then he had to win one and be the "Main Guy". Then he wins one without Shaq and is the Finals MVP, the "Main Guy" and now its well he got Gasol handed to them even though Gasol never won a Playoff game in his life (0-12) until he played with Kobe.
The Rings matter because the Lakers and Kobe had to go thru argubaly the deepest Western Conference ever and they did it twice in row.

Seeing as Rings are the only thing the Kobe fans can use to better Lebron I doubt you'd see them thrown out. Lebron is better than kobe statistically, and as a teammate so that's out the window.

All I'm saying is that rings are a team award, no single player has won a ring by himself, and they never will. To use that as your be all, end all ,to discussions is ridiculous.

Now I suppose if Kobe and Lebron were dead even in stats, and had the exact same talent levels around them, you could use the rings to settle the fact. But even you Kobe diehards have to admit, the Lakers have had superior talent to what Lebron and Cavs have had. Outside of Lebron the Cavs have/had maybe one guy that would crack the 6 man rotation of the Lakers and thats Mo Williams.

I am a Lebron supporter, however there is no doubting Kobe's greatness, I'm not of those guys who disparages(sp) everything Kobe's done, nor do I resort to the name calling about Kobe's rape charge etc. I'm looking at this from the angle that Championships shouldn't be used as a determining factor when all things aren't equal.

^^^

Good post.

lol @ mallymal saying Wade could be better than LeBron.

smh.. Some people are just ignorant.

mallymal ='s skyhook groupie.

mallymal614 wrote: Lebron may not even be the best player in his own conference (Wade). King James is good but not the best.

First the Celtics are the clear favorite in the East and now LeBron may not be better than D Wade? Wow.

LTrain23 wrote: lol @ mallymal saying Wade could be better than LeBron.

smh.. Some people are just ignorant.

mallymal ='s skyhook groupie.

lol. No need to take shots at people. If everybody agreed on everything, then sports and message boards would be boring. Lebron is a GREAT player. There is no denying that. I just don't think he is as good as Kobe and believes Wade is just as good. That's all. In no way am I trying to discredit Lebron.

At the end of the day, LBJ is the better all around player over Wade. His god given size plus his hard earned skills just allow him to do more things. Not a knock on Wade. But I'll tell you this much. On the biggest stage when it was needed most, I've seen Wade do things and do it better than arguably anybody in history. So, at the end of the day, if I got "stuck" with Wade instead of LBJ... I think I'd be in good hands. I know I have a guy that can pick his team off the floor, put them on his back, and take what everybody else in the league wanted. While being as great as he is, LBJ still has to do that. It may be coming soon...

jpake1 wrote: At the end of the day, LBJ is the better all around player over Wade. His god given size plus his hard earned skills just allow him to do more things. Not a knock on Wade. But I'll tell you this much. On the biggest stage when it was needed most, I've seen Wade do things and do it better than arguably anybody in history. So, at the end of the day, if I got "stuck" with Wade instead of LBJ... I think I'd be in good hands. I know I have a guy that can pick his team off the floor, put them on his back, and take what everybody else in the league wanted. While being as great as he is, LBJ still has to do that. It may be coming soon...

Good post. Charles Barkley said Dwyane Wade led Miami to the playoffs last season as Michael Jackson with a bunch of Titos' .

mallymal614 wrote:
Good post. Charles Barkley said Dwyane Wade led Miami to the playoffs last season as Michael Jackson with a bunch of Titos' .

That is disrespectful to Tito haha. Wade's supporting cast is absolutely atrocious

They definitely aren't a great supporting cast, but it's pretty easy to see how they made the playoffs. The east sucks, plain and simple. Just like when the Cavs made the finals, the east was even worse.

jpake1 wrote: At the end of the day, LBJ is the better all around player over Wade. His god given size plus his hard earned skills just allow him to do more things. Not a knock on Wade. But I'll tell you this much. On the biggest stage when it was needed most, I've seen Wade do things and do it better than arguably anybody in history. So, at the end of the day, if I got "stuck" with Wade instead of LBJ... I think I'd be in good hands. I know I have a guy that can pick his team off the floor, put them on his back, and take what everybody else in the league wanted. While being as great as he is, LBJ still has to do that. It may be coming soon...

Maybe you missed this...

I watched it, and that was an amazing performance. However, you may have missed when I said THE biggest stage. That exact stage that I speak of wasn't so kind to LBJ.

LeBron>D-Wade for sure, but like jpake said, you aren't hurting if you've got D-Wade. Both GREAT players, both will be top 20 in NBA history when it's said and done IMO, except LeBron will be top 5.

I think we should just all appreciate what we have right now in the NBA because there are so many players RIGHT NOW who are going down in the history books. This is the best era the NBA has ever seen.

ESPN's Sportsnation poll asks: Who is the better overall player right now?

The results are 43% Kobe, 57% Lebron

SQ_Crazies wrote: LeBron>D-Wade for sure, but like jpake said, you aren't hurting if you've got D-Wade. Both GREAT players, both will be top 20 in NBA history when it's said and done IMO, except LeBron will be top 5.

I think we should just all appreciate what we have right now in the NBA because there are so many players RIGHT NOW who are going down in the history books. This is the best era the NBA has ever seen.

History will prove the 80's as the greatest era in NBA History.

Magic
Bird
Jordan
Jabbar
Karl Malone
George Gervin
Akeem
Dr J
Barkley
Moses Malone
Isiah
Drexler
Dominique Wilkins
Bernard King
Alex English
John Stockton
James Worthy
Scottie Pippen
Robert Parish
Kevin McHale
Ewing


Name 21 players from todays game that can stack up to that.

Skyhook79 wrote:

SQ_Crazies wrote: LeBron>D-Wade for sure, but like jpake said, you aren't hurting if you've got D-Wade. Both GREAT players, both will be top 20 in NBA history when it's said and done IMO, except LeBron will be top 5.

I think we should just all appreciate what we have right now in the NBA because there are so many players RIGHT NOW who are going down in the history books. This is the best era the NBA has ever seen.

History will prove the 80's as the greatest era in NBA History.

Magic
Bird
Jordan
Jabbar
Karl Malone
George Gervin
Akeem
Dr J
Barkley
Moses Malone
Isiah
Drexler
Dominique Wilkins
Bernard King
Alex English
John Stockton
James Worthy
Scottie Pippen
Robert Parish
Kevin McHale
Ewing


Name 21 players from todays game that can stack up to that.

I'll try. We'll still have to wait and see another 10 years or so, so it's hard to have this argument now. The 80's is definitely the only other era that can contend with today.

1. LeBron
2. Kobe
3. D-Wade
4. Carmelo
5. Dwight Howard
6. Shaq
7. Allen Iverson
8. Chris Paul
9. Vince Carter
10. Tracy McGrady
11. Steve Nash
12. Kevin Durant
13. Kevin Garnett
14. Tim Duncan
15. Brandon Roy
16. Dirk Nowitzki
17. Jason Kidd
18. Paul Peirce
19. Ray Allen
20. Amare Stoudamire
21. Yao Ming (when he was healthy he was great)
22. Pau Gasol
23. Chris Bosh
24. Tony Parker
25. Deron Williams
26. Rip Hamilton
27. Danny Granger
28. Michael Redd (see Yao Ming)
29. Chauncey Billups
30. Carlos Boozer
31. Antwan Jamison
32. Joe Johnson

I'm sure I forgot a few. But after that you still have a lot of good players in this league and a TON of good young players right now. And I think some of the young guys have a shot at making quite a name for themselves too--Oden and Griffin when healthy could, Lopez is in NJ, Evans, Jennings, Rose, etc.

I don't think the league has ever been a talented top to bottom as it is now. I think right now this era can contend with the 80's at the top (in an All-Star matchup I'd take this era hands down, but that's a different topic) but I don't think the 80's can contend with the depth this era has. I think a pretty good indication of that is looking at the parody of college basketball in the last 5-10 years as compared to back in the day. Certainly technology has played a role, and those players from the 80's played a big role in shaping a lot of guys into good ball players these days. Plus it's bigger on a world stage now, so you're getting more foreign players too.

The list I gave you has 18 current HOF with Karl Malone and Scottie Pippen eligible for 2010.
2 other players from the 80's who I didn't mention that are in the HOF, Joe Dumars and Adrian Dantley would make it 22 players from the 80's.
I see 13 tops in your list.

I will take the 80's era as well. Those Celtic/Laker teams were unbelievable.

Do I really see Oden's named mentioned? lol

Skyhook79 wrote: The list I gave you has 18 current HOF with Karl Malone and Scottie Pippen eligible for 2010.
2 other players from the 80's who I didn't mention that are in the HOF, Joe Dumars and Adrian Dantley would make it 22 players from the 80's.
I see 13 tops in your list.

I could name a similar list from the 60's and 70's. I think the debates on this is kind of silly.

Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Oscar Robertson
Bill Russell
Wilt
Hal Greer
George Mikan
Hondo Havlichek
Jerry Lucas
Bill Bradley
Clyde Frazier
Nate Thurmond
Jo-Jo White
Gale Goodrich
Walt Bellamy
Elvin Hayes
Sam Jones
Hal Greer
Rick Barry
Tom Gola
Pistol Pete Maravich
Willis Reed.
Doctor J

And more...all of them could play as well as today's stars.

Every era has a list of great players, obviously. That's why there is a HOF. But my main argument is that the talent has never been has high as it was now. I'd take this era's All Star team and beat any other era there is--the game has evolved based on what the players in the past era's learned about it. Technology has evolved and helped players become more athletic and more intelligent than ever. The media has set expectations for players to live up to these days, it's a lot different than it was back then. I'm not saying any list you can come up with isn't great--I obviously can't argue that the list of 80's players isn't loaded. But the athletes of today are better than they used to be.

Kinda have to wait until they're all done to really evaluate it but SQ put together a solid list. In the last 5 years you've had a guy that could retire as the greatest C ever (Shaq) the greatest PF (Duncan) the greatest SF (Lebron) and a guy that is the consensus second best guard/mid sized player ever (Bryant). I think the only thing this generation has really lacked has been a Jerry West or Magic type of PG. I would say Jason Kidd is probably the closest, maybe Nash? Chris Paul could end up passing both of them.

This starting fives prime all occured within a ten year period, assuming Lebron hits his prime within the next two seasons. He'll be 26/27 at that point so I think it's fair...

PG Nash or Kidd
SG Kobe
SF Lebron
PF Duncan
C Shaq

If you ignore positions you could go with this and have Lebron as a Magic type of point forward. Hell, on their respective teams Lebron, Wade, and Kobe all have as much if not more PG duties than the guys actually listed as the PG.

G Lebron
G Kobe
G Wade
PF Duncan
C Shaq

That team is stacked. Aside from Wade, the others are sure fire top 15 guys already. Wade himself is probably in that 25-35 range at worst.