Mulva wrote: A poor draft, not getting enough back from trades, awful free agent signings (St. Clair, Poteat, Womack, Royal, etc.), throwing Kokinis under the bus, rubbing players the wrong way (the rookie training camp thing, the Rogers thing, unloading Edwards and Winslow, the hotel water bottle incident), agents actively steering players away from Cleveland because of him, totally mishandling the QB situation in training camp/pretty much all year, a complete stubbornness to admit he is wrong/change his way of doing things (reminds me of Eric Wedge in that regard), his track record with the Jets (specifically the meltdown in 2008), and lack of results on the field.

Good enough list?

BS.

We don't know about the draft yet. The trades were fine (the guys we got for Braylon alone are working out). Womack played his arse off yesterday, but I'll give you this one (and he's not going to be the de facto GM anymore so the point is moot). Winslow & Edwards were way overpriced for their talent and weren't going to re-sign with Cleveland w/o breaking the bank. Got a link for agents steering players away? Didn't think so. We don't know if Quinn needed to be sat to let things clear, but he sure played better after he sat for a while. The Jets meltdown was due to Favre having a bad arm and nothing more. This team never had the talent to win much more than it already has.

I wonder what Free Agents Mike Holmgren will go after ?

If Mangini is the coach, free agents will not come here. He might have a contingent of players playing hard for him now, but he is reviled among the players in the league and things like making rookies take 10 hour bus trips and fining veterans $1500 for bottles of water do nothing to help his reputation.

He has done a good job the last few games, but we can't have a coach that no one in the league wants to play for. A few wins down the stretch does not change his reputation among the players. Cleveland was already a tuff enough sell to free agents, but having a task master as a head coach just makes it that much worse in terms of ever trying to attract talent here.

IggyPride00 wrote:

I wonder what Free Agents Mike Holmgren will go after ?

If Mangini is the coach, free agents will not come here. He might have a contingent of players playing hard for him now, but he is reviled among the players in the league and things like making rookies take 10 hour bus trips and fining veterans $1500 for bottles of water do nothing to help his reputation.

He has done a good job the last few games, but we can't have a coach that no one in the league wants to play for. A few wins down the stretch does not change his reputation among the players. Cleveland was already a tuff enough sell to free agents, but having a task master as a head coach just makes it that much worse in terms of ever trying to attract talent here.

How could you possibly know that "no one in the league wants to play for" him? The majority of players I've heard speak of Mangini highly. The players who haven't, are players known around the league to have attitude problems (Edwards, Winslow, Smith, Lewis...).

Mulva wrote: A poor draft, not getting enough back from trades, awful free agent signings (St. Clair, Poteat, Womack, Royal, etc.), throwing Kokinis under the bus, rubbing players the wrong way (the rookie training camp thing, the Rogers thing, unloading Edwards and Winslow, the hotel water bottle incident), agents actively steering players away from Cleveland because of him, totally mishandling the QB situation in training camp/pretty much all year, a complete stubbornness to admit he is wrong/change his way of doing things (reminds me of Eric Wedge in that regard), his track record with the Jets (specifically the meltdown in 2008), and lack of results on the field.

Good enough list?

Track record with the Jets? They were considered one of the best teams in football until Favre got injured (something no one knew about until after the season)...and he seems to be making the same late season melt down right now--although I think he'll turn it around because his team is wayyy better. But personally, I don't see how you can say he did a bad job with the Jets. There are some things out of the coaches control. Get him some players and I think he'll do quite well.

devil1197 wrote: I was told according to Adam Schefter of ESPN, Mike Holmgren will be the President of Football Operations for the Cleveland Browns.

Now I've heard them say Holmgren is for sure coming to Cleveland, but I haven't heard any role specified yet. I never heard that he was for sure going to be President of Football Operations. Any source for this?

pkebker wrote:

devil1197 wrote: I was told according to Adam Schefter of ESPN, Mike Holmgren will be the President of Football Operations for the Cleveland Browns.

Now I've heard them say Holmgren is for sure coming to Cleveland, but I haven't heard any role specified yet. I never heard that he was for sure going to be President of Football Operations. Any source for this?

That's the job according to Mortensen and Schefter. No head coach or GM, he will run the Cleveland Browns in 2010 which means head of the football operations.

Writerbuckeye wrote: BS.

We don't know about the draft yet.

You can say that if you want. I disagree. Drafting a solid but certainly not spectacular center in the 1st round on a team with as many holes as the Browns had is just plain bad. Feel free to call me out the day Maivia and Veikune are legit NFL players. Or Coye Francies. Don Carey was cut the 1st week of August, so I can't even mention him. The 2nd round picks have both been very unimpressive, but I think those 2 guys both have potential to be decent picks still.

The trades were fine (the guys we got for Braylon alone are working out).

If you don't think better players than Kenyon Coleman, Ratliff, Abram Elam could have been had for the 5th overall pick then I don't know what else to say to you.

Womack played his arse off yesterday, but I'll give you this one (and he's not going to be the de facto GM anymore so the point is moot).

It isn't moot at all. It is part of the reason people don't like Mangini, which is the question I was answering.

Winslow & Edwards were way overpriced for their talent and weren't going to re-sign with Cleveland w/o breaking the bank. Got a link for agents steering players away? Didn't think so.

Think again. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/16/sources-agents-steering-players-away-from-browns/

I'm sure multiple sources from the site that breaks a good deal of NFL news won't be good enough because you are determined to stand up for Mangini, but there's nothing I can do about that.

We don't know if Quinn needed to be sat to let things clear, but he sure played better after he sat for a while.

Right. In 4/6 games since the bye he has played WORSE than he did at the beginning of the year. But keep disregarding the stats that are right in front of you.

The Jets meltdown was due to Favre having a bad arm and nothing more.

I'll need to see a link proving that that was the only reason. Because you saying so just doesn't cut it.

This team never had the talent to win much more than it already has.

There is absolutely no way to know or prove that. A different coach may not trade Winslow and Edwards, might have a different draft, and a different offensive scheme, and different free agent signings, and the talent level could have been vastly different (or at least utilized better).

And yes, his track record with the Jets for whoever questioned that one.

They went from the playoffs to 4-12 in 1 year under him. Then they had the meltdown the following season. Ask Jets fans what they think of him. There's a reason he got fired after only 3 seasons there.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/2008/12/29/2008-12-29_the_daily_news_looks_back_at_eric_mangin.html

I don't think trading the 5th pick was a bad idea, seeing as how that contract would be huge for an unproven rookie.

The Braylon and Winslow trades were not GREAT, but they weren't terrible either, especially since we would have gotten nothing had they of left at the end of their contract.

I say, give Mangini one more year, and if we are still as bad as we are now, give him the axe.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4762828

Mangini should be canned at the end of the year. Mainly....because he's an idiot. Running Jamaal Lewis up the middle all year...when he had some pretty good fresh legs rotting on the bench...is good enough reason for me.

As for Robb Ryan....I think too many people think the guy is god's gift to the world, JMHO. The fact is...Oakland's defense is much better this year without him..and talent or no talent, the team statistically is only a pubic hair above Detroit as the worst defense in the league.

Footwedge wrote: Mangini should be canned at the end of the year. Mainly....because he's an idiot. Running Jamaal Lewis up the middle all year...when he had some pretty good fresh legs rotting on the bench...is good enough reason for me.

As for Robb Ryan....I think too many people think the guy is god's gift to the world, JMHO. The fact is...Oakland's defense is much better this year without him..and talent or no talent, the team statistically is only a pubic hair above Detroit as the worst defense in the league.

Mangini should not be canned and Rob Ryan has done a lot of good for this defense.

Again, Oakland gave up under Lane Kiffin, had nothing to do with Ryan..

His defenses are plagued by terrible offenses. Sure, the Browns are terrible statistically, but they are also playing with the WORST offense. How often has the Browns defense looked very good for 2 quarters, only to be left on the field too long and begin to give up big plays?

You get Rob Ryan some talent and he'll show how great of a D-cord he is. Look at the individual numbers. Look at Wimbley, look at the sack totals... This Browns defense is better in a lot of categories over last years team.

Mangini has not had this team give up on him either. They play hard every week and with less talent, he's in position to match the record of last year.

But, I wouldn't be upset with Mangini going. I'll trust Holmgren to make the right decision. But I do want Rob Ryan.

Mulva wrote:

Writerbuckeye wrote: BS.

We don't know about the draft yet.

You can say that if you want. I disagree. Drafting a solid but certainly not spectacular center in the 1st round on a team with as many holes as the Browns had is just plain bad. Feel free to call me out the day Maivia and Veikune are legit NFL players. Or Coye Francies. Don Carey was cut the 1st week of August, so I can't even mention him. The 2nd round picks have both been very unimpressive, but I think those 2 guys both have potential to be decent picks still.

Mack is WAY better than solid. He has been all but dominant working in a division that includes some pretty good NTs. Like it or not, most NFL analysts don't judge drafts until at least a year or two go by. Wide receivers, in particular, usually take time to develop. If only Mack and the two wide receivers end up being starters and contributors, that would mean this was a very good draft.


If you don't think better players than Kenyon Coleman, Ratliff, Abram Elam could have been had for the 5th overall pick then I don't know what else to say to you.

So don't say anything because the players he has acquired (including Trusniak and Stuckey which you ignored) have contributed and helped fill some of the many holes that couldn't have been filled with one selection.


It isn't moot at all. It is part of the reason people don't like Mangini, which is the question I was answering.

It isn't moot, anymore, because he's not going to be the GM, even if he stays.

Think again. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/16/sources-agents-steering-players-away-from-browns/

I'm sure multiple sources from the site that breaks a good deal of NFL news won't be good enough because you are determined to stand up for Mangini, but there's nothing I can do about that.

Oh Lord, you gonna cite TMZ next? PFT is a gossip site and little more. It has zero credibility. Free agents will sign where the money can be found, and Cleveland will have as much as any team out there this free agency period.

Right. In 4/6 games since the bye he has played WORSE than he did at the beginning of the year. But keep disregarding the stats that are right in front of you.

He has turned the ball over less during that period and managed the game pretty darn well. He has been especially impressive running the no huddle offense. They've also won two games. You can't judge a QB solely on his stats, especially when he's had less than a full year of starts in his career. You have to look at how he's progressing, and Quinn HAS progressed since those early games.

I'll need to see a link proving that that was the only reason. Because you saying so just doesn't cut it.

Well, they aren't doing much better this year than last with a new coach and a dinged up QB, so I'm gonna stick with Favre as the main reason. Especially since they won the majority of their games last year when he was healthy early and not later in the season when we found out he was not.

There is absolutely no way to know or prove that. A different coach may not trade Winslow and Edwards, might have a different draft, and a different offensive scheme, and different free agent signings, and the talent level could have been vastly different (or at least utilized better).

They went from the playoffs to 4-12 in 1 year under him. Then they had the meltdown the following season. Ask Jets fans what they think of him. There's a reason he got fired after only 3 seasons there.

And we all know fans and the media are the best judge of whether a coach is best for a team or not. You may be too young to remember, but fans (and media) pretty much ran Belichick out of Cleveland, too, for many of these same reasons. They sure knew what they were doing back then, didn't they?

I don't feel like keeping up this argument, because it's obvious you will defend Mangini at all costs while I really don't care if he stays or goes (I was just addressing the question why he isn't a good coach), but I'll address those points and end it there.

I'll disagree on Mack being way better than solid. That wasn't my real point though. My point was that a center should have been damn near the bottom of the Browns priority list. We have very few playmakers on either side of the ball, and IF they were set on addressing the O-line through the draft right tackle was a much bigger need (with plenty of highly ranked tackles to be had). They (aka Mangini) elected to go the free agency route with that position and made a horrific signing. I also said it's too early to judge the receivers and I think they could both end up being decent picks still, so no argument there.

Trusnik had a couple of good games. He has done next to nothing the last 3 weeks. He's a solid special teamer, but I didn't mention him because he wasn't really worth mentioning. The guy isn't a game changer. Stuckey is a #4 receiver on a team weak at the position. The guy is averaging something like 20 receiving yards/game since joining the Browns. That really isn't a trade move I would be bragging about.

THIS year, Mangini was a poor evaluator of talent. This season isn't over yet. I understand he won't be the GM anymore, but he'll definitely still be trying to get "his guys" in here.

And of course PFT has 0 credibility. Forget the fact that they break several trade and locker-room incident stories before anyone else (citing sources anytime it's possible), they said something negative about Mangini, so they couldn't possibly have legitimate sources! TMZ has plenty of credibility with me too by the way. They break more news stories than anyone. Does the Drudge report hold 0 cred with you too?

I think you know where I stand on the Quinn issue so no need to rehash that point.

Finally, fans and media might not be the best judge of a coach, you are right about that, so let's trust the people in charge. Oh wait, the Jets people in charge fired him after 3 seasons. I wonder what argument that works in favor of. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what Holmgren decides.

Diminishing skills will be announced shortly by Mangini of several players.

He deserves another 1-2 years with someone ahead of him in managment running the overall operations, plus getting good talent scouts to give us the best draft possible.

No way should Mangini be gone.

They're starting to play better now. Give these guys like Mangini and Ryan a chance to bring in some other players.

For the record, Mulva: I have said here and elsewhere that the decision on Mangini should be made by Holmgren when he's hired.

Well, he's on-board now. It's his show. He has to live with the consequences if he decides to can Mangini and start from scratch again.

I'm betting he gives him at least one more year and tries to find him the talent needed to win consistently.

As for Quinn, I'm pretty much in the same boat. I defend him ONLY to the point that I don't feel he's had a fair shake yet. I want to see this guy play under the same coaching staff for more than one year, for an entire season, and be allowed to develop chemistry with his wide receivers and backs.

His numbers against KC were atrocious but you know what? THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO PASS TO WIN THE GAME. So they didn't.

Quinn ran that no huddle offense almost flawlessly, and it won the game for them. Someone made the right calls at the line on the running plays and blocking schemes that sprang Harrison for his record day. Unless Mack is making the line calls, I'd say most of that happened because of how Quinn ran the show (with very few penalties, by the way).

Again, I want him given a fair shot. If he fails after that, I don't care if they trade or cut him.

Quinn's naked bootleg was enough to keep him in for the next year.

I don't see peoples beef with Mack. The guy has been great handling NTs. He will be a top center in the league for years to come if he stays healthy

I don't think too many fans have any beef with Mack's play. Only a few who are trying to find reasons to discredit Mangini.

Center and the blind side tackle (usually the left tackle) are the two most important players on the O-line, especially when you play against teams that run a 3-4. By drafting Thomas and Mack the past three years, those two positions are solidifed for the forseeable future. You have to have someone who can handle Hampton and Ngata and make the right line calls to pick up the blitz if you are going to win in the AFC North. People can hate Mangini all they want for that pick, but if you are going to build an O-line, you start there.

The Browns are a right guard and tackle away from having one of the best lines in football, IMO. Draft one, get the other through free agency and the entire offnese becomes better overnight. This team hasn't been able to run the ball at will since they came back in '99, but they need to get to that point if they want to win games. I know it's cliche, but running the ball and stopping the run is what wins in the playoffs, almost without exception. Mangini gets that...it's not "sexy" like throwing for 400 yards a game is, but it wins. The run defense is improving, as is the rushing attack on offense. I think they are heading in the right direction, and I hope Holmgren gives Mangini another season...

maybe the Browns have turned the corner? I like the move.

Mulva wrote:
I'll disagree on Mack being way better than solid. That wasn't my real point though. My point was that a center should have been damn near the bottom of the Browns priority list. We have very few playmakers on either side of the ball, and IF they were set on addressing the O-line through the draft right tackle was a much bigger need (with plenty of highly ranked tackles to be had). They (aka Mangini) elected to go the free agency route with that position and made a horrific signing. I also said it's too early to judge the receivers and I think they could both end up being decent picks still, so no argument there.

The game of football is won on the lines of scrimmage. There is one main priority and those are the lines of scrimmage.

Skill positions are a dime a dozen and a great line will create great skill players.

Mack was a great choice.

Mack was an excellent pick. He has been consistently good this entire year. Another position especially important in 3-4 schemes is linebacker, and we are incredibly thin at LB. With Rogers healthy, our D-Line is decent. If we can have a playmaking LB, that will really begin to solidify our D.