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Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

Home ▸ Archive ▸ Politics ▸ Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!
OneBuckeye's avatar

OneBuckeye

Senior Member

5,888 posts
Feb 15, 2011 12:21 PM
jc10380;679338 wrote:Look who did your research, a conservative thinktank.

What private sector job am I supped to go to as a firefighter/paramedic?

Are you telling me that rent-a-cops are doing as good of a job as a public police officer? There's a reason they are looked at as a joke.
As a paramedic you should be close to getting something in the way of nursing. You could go back to school and become a nurse. Of course rent a cops don't do as good of a job as public police officers they don't have the $ behind them to be better.
Feb 15, 2011 12:21pm
J

jc10380

Member

65 posts
Feb 15, 2011 12:22 PM
QuakerOats;679340 wrote:Less money in a public sector wallet means more money in a taxpayer's wallet.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Yet, are you going to expect the same services?
Feb 15, 2011 12:22pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Feb 15, 2011 12:23 PM
jc10380;679331 wrote:Here we go. Now I'm the villain.

Services will suffer, and once again. After someone calls 911, ask them what we are worth in pay?
I've taken a HUGE pay cut in the last year. Guess what my first thought was?

"If I don't bust my ass, it might get cut AGAIN! OR, they might even find me expendable and can me!"

Service doesn't suffer, because pay cut puts you into crisis mode if you know your job and pay is only as secure as your ability to perform it at as high a performance as possible.

As for your last comment, you're equating quality service with monetary value. I don't mind paying law enforcement and emergency services to keep the community safe. I don't mind paying teachers a good, livable salary.

However, I DO resent having to pay them an amount that is insulated from the economic downturn I've experienced myself. I ALSO resent the notion that their pay should not be determined by their individual ability to do their job at a certain level.

Oh, and I don't remember who mentioned pay freezes, but to call that a problem, at this point, is kind of funny. I would have KILLED for a pay freeze over the last two years.
Feb 15, 2011 12:23pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Feb 15, 2011 12:25 PM
jc10380;679354 wrote:Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Yet, are you going to expect the same services?

My employers expect it from me. And if I don't give it to them, they can dock my pay again or even can my ass.

So yes. I do.
Feb 15, 2011 12:25pm
Writerbuckeye's avatar

Writerbuckeye

Senior Member

4,745 posts
Feb 15, 2011 12:30 PM
jc10380;679338 wrote:Look who did your research, a conservative thinktank.

What private sector job am I supped to go to as a firefighter/paramedic?

Are you telling me that rent-a-cops are doing as good of a job as a public police officer? There's a reason they are looked at as a joke.

A think tank who doesn't use actual numbers won't be around very long. If the numbers are there, they are there. The political lean of whoever collects them is irrelevant.

There have been other studies of pay at the federal level showing similar results. The public sectors have passed the private in many areas when it comes to total pay and benefits.
Feb 15, 2011 12:30pm
tsst_fballfan's avatar

tsst_fballfan

Senior Member

406 posts
Feb 15, 2011 12:37 PM
jc10380;679331 wrote:Here we go. Now I'm the villain.

Services will suffer, and once again. After someone calls 911, ask them what we are worth in pay?
Why would services suffer?
Feb 15, 2011 12:37pm
J

jc10380

Member

65 posts
Feb 15, 2011 12:37 PM
Writerbuckeye;679374 wrote: The public sectors have passed the private in many areas when it comes to total pay and benefits.

For the first time in history last year. So, we are not as valuable as you?
Feb 15, 2011 12:37pm
J

jc10380

Member

65 posts
Feb 15, 2011 12:40 PM
tsst_fballfan;679380 wrote:Why would services suffer?

Morale first of all. Is someone going to be as eager to do there job when you cut their pay and benefits? That is true of all human nature.
Feb 15, 2011 12:40pm
J

jc10380

Member

65 posts
Feb 15, 2011 12:41 PM
O-Trap;679362 wrote:My employers expect it from me. And if I don't give it to them, they can dock my pay again or even can my ass.

So yes. I do.

So, you want to pay less taxes? Then you have to be prepared to get less services.
Feb 15, 2011 12:41pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Feb 15, 2011 12:44 PM
jc10380;679381 wrote:For the first time in history last year. So, we are not as valuable as you?

The sector is JUST as valuable. Nobody is denying that. The rub is that those individuals who work WITHIN the private sector can have their individual pay docked or increased based on their individual performance. Plus, there is nothing protecting them from getting canned except the value they bring to the employer (not always a monetary value, either). I think many of them would like to see the same competitive nature present in the public sector.
Feb 15, 2011 12:44pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Feb 15, 2011 12:46 PM
jc10380;679387 wrote:So, you want to pay less taxes? Then you have to be prepared to get less services.

I'm in!
Feb 15, 2011 12:46pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Feb 15, 2011 12:48 PM
jc10380;679387 wrote:So, you want to pay less taxes? Then you have to be prepared to get less services.

Here's the problem. You can say that without getting fired.

If the boss who just cut the pay of everyone in my department came to me, and I told him, "You want to pay me less? Then you have to be prepared to get less out of me," he could (and would) simply respond with, "Fine, if you're going to have that attitude, clean out your desk, and I'll find someone willing to replace you."

Thus, just because my pay has been decreased, I don't have the luxury of giving less effort. I don't see why others should be so offended at the notion that they should be subject to the same.
Feb 15, 2011 12:48pm
J

jc10380

Member

65 posts
Feb 15, 2011 12:50 PM
O-Trap;679392 wrote:The sector is JUST as valuable. Nobody is denying that. The rub is that those individuals who work WITHIN the private sector can have their individual pay docked or increased based on their individual performance. Plus, there is nothing protecting them from getting canned except the value they bring to the employer (not always a monetary value, either). I think many of them would like to see the same competitive nature present in the public sector.

I agree with this.

In my profession, how do rate what I am worth? How many fires I put out? How many people I give treatment to on the Medic? How many classes I attend? My general attitude around the station? Is it just based on what my bosses think of me? I just find it hard to quantify what I do. I can't give you numbers. So, who is the judge, and what is "performance" based on?
Feb 15, 2011 12:50pm
tsst_fballfan's avatar

tsst_fballfan

Senior Member

406 posts
Feb 15, 2011 12:51 PM
jc10380;679386 wrote:Morale first of all. Is someone going to be as eager to do there job when you cut their pay and benefits? That is true of all human nature.
I would really question an EMT or firefighter that only did their job to the fullest if they got the contract they wanted. Even more reason to eliminate union protectionism. I want the firefighter that strives everyday to be the very best he can and is compensated based on the performance. I have worked in many union and non-union environments. Without exception the non-union environments were the best because employees had a reason to perform. Unionization breeds complacency. Why strive to do better if you get the same raise no matter what?
Feb 15, 2011 12:51pm
J

jc10380

Member

65 posts
Feb 15, 2011 12:53 PM
O-Trap;679395 wrote:Here's the problem. You can say that without getting fired.

If the boss who just cut the pay of everyone in my department came to me, and I told him, "You want to pay me less? Then you have to be prepared to get less out of me," he could (and would) simply respond with, "Fine, if you're going to have that attitude, clean out your desk, and I'll find someone willing to replace you."

Thus, just because my pay has been decreased, I don't have the luxury of giving less effort. I don't see why others should be so offended at the notion that they should be subject to the same.

I am talking in general. You want to pay less, then you get less. You want to pay for x number of people, well you get x number of equipment on an emergency.

You can't tell me that a happy employee does not work harder than a disgruntled employee.

I am all for merit based pay, but it is not as black and white as some people want to make it.
Feb 15, 2011 12:53pm
J

jc10380

Member

65 posts
Feb 15, 2011 12:58 PM
tsst_fballfan;679399 wrote:I would really question an EMT or firefighter that only did their job to the fullest if they got the contract they wanted. Even more reason to eliminate union protectionism. I want the firefighter that strives everyday to be the very best he can and is compensated based on the performance. I have worked in many union and non-union environments. Without exception the non-union environments were the best because employees had a reason to perform. Unionization breeds complacency. Why strive to do better if you get the same raise no matter what?

I agree. If you dial 911 you should expect a competent person is going to be there to help you.

How do you judge a firefighter or paramedic on performance? There are no uniform numbers to do it.
Feb 15, 2011 12:58pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Feb 15, 2011 1:00 PM
jc10380;679397 wrote:I agree with this.

In my profession, how do rate what I am worth? How many fires I put out? How many people I give treatment to on the Medic? How many classes I attend? My general attitude around the station? Is it just based on what my bosses think of me? I just find it hard to quantify what I do. I can't give you numbers. So, who is the judge, and what is "performance" based on?
Admittedly, I don't know enough about what you do, so I, myself, am inadequate to answer that.

I would contend, however, that there ARE positions in the private sector that can seem just as nebulous. Construction workers can be evaluated on a variety of things, but it's difficult to come up with tangible results by which to evaluate them (speed, but how fast? strength, but how much? etc.). Same with landscapers, or even less labor-intensive positions, like customer support representatives (hired to put out customers' proverbial "fires" whenever possible, I suppose).

People with nebulous values to their employer are still evaluated every day, usually by someone put in charge to do so (foreman, chief, manager, etc.).
Feb 15, 2011 1:00pm
tsst_fballfan's avatar

tsst_fballfan

Senior Member

406 posts
Feb 15, 2011 1:07 PM
jc10380;679402 wrote:I agree. If you dial 911 you should expect a competent person is going to be there to help you.

How do you judge a firefighter or paramedic on performance? There are no uniform numbers to do it.
There are no uniform numbers in most fields. Outside of an assembly line worker maybe. Are you telling me that in a firehouse of say 10 guys nobody could discern that one was any better than another? Does the fire chief really not know what one fighter is more capable of than another?
Feb 15, 2011 1:07pm
J

jc10380

Member

65 posts
Feb 15, 2011 1:13 PM
tsst_fballfan;679418 wrote:There are no uniform numbers in most fields. Outside of an assembly line worker maybe. Are you telling me that in a firehouse of say 10 guys nobody could discern that one was any better than another? Does the fire chief really not know what one fighter is more capable of than another?

I see what you mean. So, in the private sector, is pay not discussed between employees? Do you not know what a couterpart of yours is making?

This would create tension in my profession as our salaries are public record.

I am not saying tension is a reason to not go this route. Just some questions
Feb 15, 2011 1:13pm
OneBuckeye's avatar

OneBuckeye

Senior Member

5,888 posts
Feb 15, 2011 1:19 PM
jc10380;679427 wrote:I see what you mean. So, in the private sector, is pay not discussed between employees? Do you not know what a couterpart of yours is making?

This would create tension in my profession as our salaries are public record.

I am not saying tension is a reason to not go this route. Just some questions
Hell no we don't discuss pay, HR would have your ass if they found out. You don't want to know because it would only cause tension and anger.
Feb 15, 2011 1:19pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Feb 15, 2011 1:23 PM
tsst_fballfan;679399 wrote:I would really question an EMT or firefighter that only did their job to the fullest if they got the contract they wanted. Even more reason to eliminate union protectionism. I want the firefighter that strives everyday to be the very best he can and is compensated based on the performance. I have worked in many union and non-union environments. Without exception the non-union environments were the best because employees had a reason to perform. Unionization breeds complacency. Why strive to do better if you get the same raise no matter what?

As a teacher, I will say that having security does help in focusing on your job. I've had both ends. I've had a Super who treated the school as a business, and everyone was expendable. This Super was also know to get rid of people he did not like, making up "cause." Morale was TERRIBLE. Everyone did what they could just to make sure they didn't "get in trouble," or get on the Super's bad side. Focus was turned from education to "getting by." Take it for what it's worth. It's just reality.

I don't want my EMS/PD/FD people worrying about whether they are going to have a job tomorrow. I want them focusing on the task at hand. I'm not sure if that makes sense to some people.
Feb 15, 2011 1:23pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Feb 15, 2011 1:25 PM
OneBuckeye;679433 wrote:Hell no we don't discuss pay, HR would have your ass if they found out. You don't want to know because it would only cause tension and anger.

Want that to enter schools?
Feb 15, 2011 1:25pm
J

jc10380

Member

65 posts
Feb 15, 2011 1:27 PM
ernest_t_bass;679437 wrote:As a teacher, I will say that having security does help in focusing on your job. I've had both ends. I've had a Super who treated the school as a business, and everyone was expendable. This Super was also know to get rid of people he did not like, making up "cause." Morale was TERRIBLE. Everyone did what they could just to make sure they didn't "get in trouble," or get on the Super's bad side. Focus was turned from education to "getting by." Take it for what it's worth. It's just reality.

I don't want my EMS/PD/FD people worrying about whether they are going to have a job tomorrow. I want them focusing on the task at hand. I'm not sure if that makes sense to some people.
Makes sense to me.
Feb 15, 2011 1:27pm
tsst_fballfan's avatar

tsst_fballfan

Senior Member

406 posts
Feb 15, 2011 1:28 PM
jc10380;679427 wrote:I see what you mean. So, in the private sector, is pay not discussed between employees? Do you not know what a couterpart of yours is making?

This would create tension in my profession as our salaries are public record.

I am not saying tension is a reason to not go this route. Just some questions
No we don't know. I can guesstimate based on performance.
Feb 15, 2011 1:28pm
Q

QuakerOats

Senior Member

8,740 posts
Feb 15, 2011 1:32 PM
jc10380;679354 wrote:Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Yet, are you going to expect the same services?

That is a senseless comment. The citizens/taxpayers will pay what they can afford and deem reasonable to obtain adequate protection. Most are finding out how ridiculous it is to send out firemen and firetrucks for every fender bender or to watch the life flight chopper land at the hospital.

And, when some municipalities are forking over 29% of pay toward pension plans so these publics service workers can retire at 45, it enhances the argument that MAJOR reform is necessary.
Feb 15, 2011 1:32pm