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Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

Home ▸ Archive ▸ Politics ▸ Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!
G

Gblock

Feb 19, 2011 12:05 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;683690 wrote:Link for what, the number of qualified people or the number un/underemployed?

If it is the latter just google it - and find a source you have confidence in. 26M is typically the average reported, but I've seen figures as high as 31M and as low as 22M. If it is the former, it is common sense that many of these folks have college (or higher) degrees.

Serious question, do you realize how bad the job market is right now, particularly for younger people?
those with equal or greater qualifications......the majority of teachers have over a BA or BS because of licensing requirements....are you saying that if i google the number of unemployed in this country i can then take that number and assume that this number also represents the number of people with equal or greater qualifications than teachers? just asking because that number seems high ....what percent are you assuming? and what are you basing that number on?
Feb 19, 2011 12:05pm
B

bonelizzard

Senior Member

129 posts
Feb 19, 2011 12:37 PM
O-Trap;683703 wrote: I'll buy you a beer.

Talking, whether on the phone or in person, is more "personal," yes. I won't deny that it is more personal, regardless of to whom you're speaking. I was saying it's not as EFFECTIVE in the business world, because trying to use a phone call will, most often keep you from getting your message heard, as people are insanely busy (even typing on here, I'm usually multitasking ... things I'd rather not put down to have a phone conversation).

I do what works. I'm in the business world, and I do my best to keep abreast of the latest efficiencies. They make my job, and the job of those around me, easier.

... because in America, you're allowed to be blissfully ignorant and wrong.

Hey, another outstanding post. Not a slam, but the truth.. I need to learn how to quote portions of the statement and be able to comment after that like you do.. Pretty cool.

I don't drink. Clouds the mind.

Hey you said that talking is more "personal" so I was right and you were wrong. I didn't say anything about being more effective in the business world you're reading it out of context. All that I said was, "talking to someone is more personal than email" that's all. So then I'm right and you agree with me? Cool.

"Because in America, you're allowed to be blissfully ignorant and wrong" Now is that a personal insult? Moderators? I'm not sure here but I kind of feel that way. Hum.. is that about SB5, being blissfully ignorant and wrong or about me? Not so confident that this pertains to the thread of SB5. But it’s cool that you can say that about me...

Well, here's my opinion. You are always right and you type very well and you certainly can think that you are a brilliant mind that knows everything and is correct all of the time.

Hey, just stopped by the house for a moment. Can't stick around the house. Back out into the real world.
Feb 19, 2011 12:37pm
F

FALLSGUY

Junior Member

27 posts
Feb 19, 2011 12:53 PM
SB5 is not just about teachers it affects all public employees. Please be reminded Ohio state government workers have taken PAY CUTS for the last 2 years.They have paid more for benefits also. This was done through their unions(1199 and AFSCME). The union employees have been willing to do their part through the unions. The conservative politicians who connect deficit reduction with abolishing unions are dishonest. They had an agenda coming in. They knew that if they didn't try to connect public employees to the deficit through the unions the general public would not support them.
Feb 19, 2011 12:53pm
S

Sonofanump

Feb 19, 2011 1:22 PM
CenterBHSFan;683709 wrote:Oh please!

Some quick math: $21,900 minus 30% for taxes equals $15,300 gross per year. That would be $1,277 a month take home. A ten year student loan would be how much? Let's take a modest $50,000 in debt with current student loan rate (had to look this stuff up since its been awhile since I got my degree, not in education) paying back at the standard ten year would be $555 a month. That leaves $722. Now I am going to assume that they will need a vehicle to drive to the school to teach and not walk and will want to eat for that month, so how much do they have left over for rent?

Now the figures that I am using are for the starting salary, but if they only get bumped up to a max of $32,000 and not sure the situation gets much better with inflation being steady and ready to raised with our weak dollar. I do not see much daylight at the end of the tunnel.
Feb 19, 2011 1:22pm
S

Sonofanump

Feb 19, 2011 1:26 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;683690 wrote:Link for what, the number of qualified people or the number un/underemployed?

If it is the latter just google it - and find a source you have confidence in. 26M is typically the average reported, but I've seen figures as high as 31M and as low as 22M. If it is the former, it is common sense that many of these folks have college (or higher) degrees.

Serious question, do you realize how bad the job market is right now, particularly for younger people?

The specific numbers for unemployment rate (based on July 2010 BLS data) are:

■Less than a high school diploma: 13.8%
■High school graduate, no college: 10.1%
■Some college or associate degree: 8.3%
■Bachelor’s degree or higher: 4.5%


Found some more recent numbers:

College degree is 4.7 percent in the fourth quarter of 2010, compared to 10.2 percent for people without a college degree.
Feb 19, 2011 1:26pm
G

Gblock

Feb 19, 2011 1:26 PM
i think that most parents and communities like having teachers in place for many years. i know plenty of stories of teachers who taught generations of families. It means something and i think its important this stability that goes far beyond test scores. if i rent out my talents to the highest bidder every few years that would be sad. treating kids like they would in the private sector as products not people. there is a reason that schools shouldnt be a business imo.....
Feb 19, 2011 1:26pm
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Feb 19, 2011 1:30 PM
"Some quick math: $21,900 minus 30% for taxes equals $15,300 gross per year."

Now you're being disingenuous. No f--king way anyone making $21,900 pays 30% in taxes.

The are just as likely to have a negative tax liability due to EIC.

Jesus, my Dad made well over $21,900 and he practically had no tax liability.
Feb 19, 2011 1:30pm
S

Sonofanump

Feb 19, 2011 1:32 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;683780 wrote:"Some quick math: $21,900 minus 30% for taxes equals $15,300 gross per year."

Now you're being disingenuous. No f--king way anyone making $21,900 pays 30% in taxes.

The are just as likely to have a negative tax liability due to EIC.

Jesus, my Dad made well over $21,900 and he practically had no tax liability.

Really, that was my tax rate when I made near that amount when starting my profession, but my student loan debt was not near that high due to college being a fraction of that cost.

Cool your dad is named Jesus, I did not know that.
Feb 19, 2011 1:32pm
B

bigkahuna

Senior Member

4,454 posts
Feb 19, 2011 1:44 PM
I made 21,008 starting out as a part time teacher (3/4 days) because I couldn't find a full time job.

I had 25% taken out from taxes. This was 2 years ago. So, that's pretty accurate. I actually brought home 16,904. Sonofanump isn't too far off.
Feb 19, 2011 1:44pm
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Feb 19, 2011 1:50 PM
Unless you guys didn't do your taxes properly, they are way off - or you aren't taking into consideration your tax return payment.

Assuming no above the line deductions (such as student loan interest), no EIC credit and no make work pay credit, or any other credits and assuming a standard deduction, a single filer making $21,900 has a federal tax liability of 6.7%. I don't know what the OH tax rate is, but with the OH deduction I would presume it can't be more than 1% or 2%. Assuming there are other credits (spouse, child, etc.) you are very close to EIC territory.
Feb 19, 2011 1:50pm
Cleveland Buck's avatar

Cleveland Buck

Troll Hunter

5,126 posts
Feb 19, 2011 1:51 PM
bigkahuna;683788 wrote:I made 21,008 starting out as a part time teacher (3/4 days) because I couldn't find a full time job.

I had 25% taken out from taxes. This was 2 years ago. So, that's pretty accurate. I actually brought home 16,904. Sonofanump isn't too far off.

You also got almost all of it back when you filed your taxes.
Feb 19, 2011 1:51pm
B

bigkahuna

Senior Member

4,454 posts
Feb 19, 2011 2:13 PM
Most I've ever got in a return single was ~800
Feb 19, 2011 2:13pm
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Feb 19, 2011 2:31 PM
Ok, so we've already established that all Ohio teachers will probably either starve to death, stop teaching all-together, live in trailer parks, good teachers will be fired, bad teachers kept, and all teachers will never be able to pay off anything.

All because Ohio will (at some point, because it's coming if not now then later) expect teachers to negotiate, talk and handle themselves as individuals.

Are you friggen serious?
Feb 19, 2011 2:31pm
Writerbuckeye's avatar

Writerbuckeye

Senior Member

4,745 posts
Feb 19, 2011 2:47 PM
These numbers do NOT add up, as noted by people better at numbers than I am.

I'm not buying into this argument that SB5 is somehow going to make paupers of teachers. It's not going to happen. EVER.
Feb 19, 2011 2:47pm
M

mella

Senior Member

647 posts
Feb 19, 2011 2:50 PM
I can only urge all education majors to change their majors and any current teachers who have less than a few years in the sytem to get out now. If you are at 30 years or more get out of the profession. Let Ohio get the teachers they want and deserve.

I only request that I get all the money that I have paid into STRS in one lump sum and let me invest it my way. I will attempt to stay in the system for a few more years and see how it goes. I currently pay about 20% of my health insurance and it is not a problem. I think all bad teachers should find other jobs.

Again, if you are a young person and are considering being a teacher DON"T DO IT. I am sure that Ohio and America will do just fine by having teachers that are barely qualified, forget highly qualified.

I'll be available to tutor your kids privately at the prices that I deem appropriate.
Feb 19, 2011 2:50pm
Writerbuckeye's avatar

Writerbuckeye

Senior Member

4,745 posts
Feb 19, 2011 2:56 PM
Do you want some cheese with that whine, Mella?

Give me a break.
Feb 19, 2011 2:56pm
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Feb 19, 2011 2:57 PM
mella;683840 wrote:I can only urge all education majors to change their majors and any current teachers who have less than a few years in the sytem to get out now. If you are at 30 years or more get out of the profession. Let Ohio get the teachers they want and deserve.

I only request that I get all the money that I have paid into STRS in one lump sum and let me invest it my way. I will attempt to stay in the system for a few more years and see how it goes. I currently pay about 20% of my health insurance and it is not a problem. I think all bad teachers should find other jobs.

Again, if you are a young person and are considering being a teacher DON"T DO IT. I am sure that Ohio and America will do just fine by having teachers that are barely qualified, forget highly qualified.

I'll be available to tutor your kids privately at the prices that I deem appropriate.
So, you do not think that you will be able to manage, negotiate or talk for yourself about your career?
You do not think that other teachers can do that?
You think somebody else can talk, negotiate, manage for/about you better than you can?
Feb 19, 2011 2:57pm
M

mella

Senior Member

647 posts
Feb 19, 2011 3:10 PM
I don't care if there is a union or not. I can negotiate for myself. I want to be in a position to be paid according to my educational level and the quality of my teaching. I never did whine so STFU. I make a decent living and don't want to see it lessened. Always knew I wasn't going to get rich but I don't want to be squeezed by people that don't value my hard work. I am all in favor of all schools being privately run and charging private school prices.

I have already stated that I pay 20% of my health insurance already and don't have a problem with that.

What is the appropriate level of pay for a teacher with 12 years of experience? One year into a PhD in neuroscience, but decided the hardcore research wasn't for me so I switched into education. I am highly qualified as a science teacher, I am a great teacher. I don't mind paying my fair share. I think the teachers in Wisconsin are being unprofessional.

Why wouldn't I want young teacheers to get out? Why wouldn't I encourage people to NOT major in education? I want there to be a shortage of qualified science teachers, it only helps me in the long run negotiate a better salary for myself. My students consistently score higher than expected on standardized tests and I do my job very well.

Not whining, just stating some opinions.
Feb 19, 2011 3:10pm
S

Sonofanump

Feb 19, 2011 3:23 PM
mella;683840 wrote:I can only urge all education majors to change their majors and any current teachers who have less than a few years in the sytem to get out now. If you are at 30 years or more get out of the profession. Let Ohio get the teachers they want and deserve.

I would forsee all teachers having the 30 years in retire if (not sure on this) it is based upon your last three years salary. They would be forced to or take a huge cut in retirement.
Feb 19, 2011 3:23pm
S

Sonofanump

Feb 19, 2011 3:24 PM
CenterBHSFan;683823 wrote:Ok, so we've already established that all Ohio teachers will probably either starve to death, stop teaching all-together, live in trailer parks, good teachers will be fired, bad teachers kept, and all teachers will never be able to pay off anything.

All because Ohio will (at some point, because it's coming if not now then later) expect teachers to negotiate, talk and handle themselves as individuals.

Are you friggen serious?

You forgot live at home with the parents which would be their best option.
Feb 19, 2011 3:24pm
S

Sonofanump

Feb 19, 2011 3:25 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;683791 wrote:Assuming there are other credits (spouse, child, etc.)

Yikes, would the credit offset the cost of that child?
Feb 19, 2011 3:25pm
ptown_trojans_1's avatar

ptown_trojans_1

Moderator

7,632 posts
Feb 19, 2011 3:40 PM
bonelizzard;683735 wrote:Hey, another outstanding post. Not a slam, but the truth.. I need to learn how to quote portions of the statement and be able to comment after that like you do.. Pretty cool.

I don't drink. Clouds the mind.

Hey you said that talking is more "personal" so I was right and you were wrong. I didn't say anything about being more effective in the business world you're reading it out of context. All that I said was, "talking to someone is more personal than email" that's all. So then I'm right and you agree with me? Cool.

"Because in America, you're allowed to be blissfully ignorant and wrong" Now is that a personal insult? Moderators? I'm not sure here but I kind of feel that way. Hum.. is that about SB5, being blissfully ignorant and wrong or about me? Not so confident that this pertains to the thread of SB5. But it’s cool that you can say that about me...

Well, here's my opinion. You are always right and you type very well and you certainly can think that you are a brilliant mind that knows everything and is correct all of the time.

Hey, just stopped by the house for a moment. Can't stick around the house. Back out into the real world.

I know you are passionate about the issue, but try and tone it down a skosh. No need to go all caps and bold on us.
Otrap has voiced his opinion, he is not calling you an idiot, just he disagrees with you.
This thread is actually pretty good, but if it starts to head down the drain, LJ and I will shut it down.

Also, yes, no need to mention post counts in the thread. Counts are irrelevant to the thread and the forum as a whole.
Feb 19, 2011 3:40pm
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Feb 19, 2011 3:47 PM
Sonofanump;683858 wrote:You forgot live at home with the parents which would be their best option.
Yep, I did forget. I'll try to do better next time! :D
Feb 19, 2011 3:47pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Feb 19, 2011 4:02 PM
CenterBHSFan;683823 wrote:Ok, so we've already established that all Ohio teachers will probably either starve to death, stop teaching all-together, live in trailer parks, good teachers will be fired, bad teachers kept, and all teachers will never be able to pay off anything.

All because Ohio will (at some point, because it's coming if not now then later) expect teachers to negotiate, talk and handle themselves as individuals.

Are you friggen serious?

I lol'd. This is ridiculous. I hope this bill passes 1000x more than I did when I first heard about it.
Feb 19, 2011 4:02pm
W

WebFire

Go Bucks!

14,779 posts
Feb 19, 2011 4:12 PM
jc10380;679253 wrote:I do more continuing education than any of you. We train every single day. I work more hours than you. I am away from my family 1/3 of my life. We are placed in some of the most stressful situations you could think of, and sometimes wouldn't want to think of. Our life span is shorter than the average person. Yet, I am overcompensated. Give me a break.

The market says you are. You said it yourself.
jc10380;679253 wrote:I have taken tons of tests, and most are hiring for 1 position, and they will test 100+ people with all the qualifications. Some departments still use the "good ole boy" method.

Are there ways to set yourself apart? Sure, military helps. Working at the department part time helps if they offer that. I don't have the time for either of these things anymore.

It is the most competitive job market I have ever been a part of. The low turnover numbers do not help either.
Feb 19, 2011 4:12pm