dwccrew;683366 wrote:Isadore, just admit this is you.

Nah, he still makes more sense than isidore.

Manhattan Buckeye;683380 wrote:Indeed by running deficits that they will pay for, or else we'll default.

Bingo. We don't streamline our education system, and not only will our future generations be in debt up to their ears, but there won't be enough employers to hire an even bigger chunk of them than the problem we have now.

CenterBHSFan;683382 wrote:How is that going to force our kids and grandkids to hate us?

It won't. It's propaganda at its finest.

Sonofanump;683388 wrote:Not sure I would be answering your question. Here is a economic perspective. Schools are a non revenue producing employer. The schools would have no motive to hire the best teachers, they would have a motive to hire the cheapest teachers. Unlike a private enterprise where the quality of the worker is reflected in the amount that the company wants to pay them, public sector employers would now just be concerned that a body is classroom to matter what the qualifications or experience.

My job is to raise funds for "non-revenue producing employers."

The biggest lie about non-profit organizations is that they don't care about money. One of my clients has employees (non chief officers) who make over a million a year. Now, why would the organization employ someone at that rate?

Two reasons: (1) he's that good, and (2) that's what it takes to keep him happily employed there.

Here's another example (it exists within a for-profit business): There exists in the NBA and NFL a salary cap. Now, do teams try to stay as far below the cap as possible? Of course not.

The reason that applies: If the administration cares the most about cheap teachers, the quality of the teachers will be lower. If the teacher quality is lower, the education is not as good. If the education is not as good, people will move from the area to schools with better teachers. This takes away tax payers, which cuts into the funds available to the school. If that is allowed to continue, the administration won't be able to find teachers willing to work for the pay they offer. The school then closes, and every member of the administration hits the unemployment line.

"The private schools I know pay less for teachers. They get either lesser qualified and experienced teachers or teachers who are doing it for religious reasons and the spouse makes enough to support the avocation. "

Depends on the private school, the faculty at my sister-in-law's private school alma mater is stronger than many universities - I think at least 75% of teacher staff have Ph.D.'s. They manage to do it without taxpayer support and with expenditures per student about in-line with many public districts. Hell, some of the worst performing school districts in the nation (Washington, D.C., NYC, etc.) have among the highest expenditures per student.

Manhattan Buckeye;683413 wrote:"The private schools I know pay less for teachers. They get either lesser qualified and experienced teachers or teachers who are doing it for religious reasons and the spouse makes enough to support the avocation. "

Depends on the private school, the faculty at my sister-in-law's private school alma mater is stronger than many universities - I think at least 75% of teacher staff have Ph.D.'s. They manage to do it without taxpayer support and with expenditures per student about in-line with many public districts. Hell, some of the worst performing school districts in the nation (Washington, D.C., NYC, etc.) have among the highest expenditures per student.

Why are we comparing Ohio with NYC & Washington DC?

Sonofanump;683416 wrote:Why are we comparing Ohio with NYC & Washington DC?

To establish that paying teachers top dollar doesn't automatically equate better education.

I see, just so we can equate everything being equal, cost of living and non teacher salaries are what percentage of that per student expenditure?

dwccrew;683366 wrote:Phone calls are more effective and more personal? I don't have the time to sit and wait on the phone, an e-mail is just as effective. .

Ok, had to chime in on this one. I disagree.. You can't tell me that someone of importance would rather read your email or text than talk to you personally. really? So, if you were being interviewed for a job, sending your responses via email or text would land you that job? Oh yeah in the private sector? really? Ok than I guess your more "professional" than I am because I don't think so.. I hope that wasn't a personal shot or I offended anyone.. just giving my opinion on this public forum..

Back to the topic before I get scolded again... If public education is really as bad as what I'm hearing on this forum by most of you, do something about it. Be a teacher. If SB5 passes, in which it won't, you won't have the unions to worry about anymore. You could be your own "professional" teacher. I teach because I enjoy being around young people and hopefully making a difference in their lives. Not for the $, or benefits. Ok I'm sure that you're going to start to tell me about all the benefits that I have and wished you had... So, fire away.. But bottom line is people work to get paid. There's no $ in teaching. Ok, I'm sure that you are about to compare my salary with Lawyer's salaries and tell me that I am better off. Sure I am.. (sarcastically) College grads. don't want to be teachers because there's no $ in it. So, you want to make a difference? Be a teacher..

First year teachers will be making $21,900 up to ten year experience will make $32,000. From what I understand that will reduce some salaries to near 40% of the original salary. I see alot more house forclosures in the future in Ohio. How do student loans work when a person no longer makes payments on them?

bonelizzard;683450 wrote:Ok, had to chime in on this one. I disagree.. You can't tell me that someone of importance would rather read your email or text than talk to you personally. really? So, if you were being interviewed for a job, sending your responses via email or text would land you that job? Oh yeah in the private sector? really? Ok than I guess your more "professional" than I am because I don't think so.. I hope that wasn't a personal shot or I offended anyone.. just giving my opinion on this public forum..

Big difference between submitting a resume and trying to get in contact with a state senator. Submitting a resume and going through the interview process is something the employer would be expecting, thus they would take my phone call. A politican get hundreds of calls a day (especially when a controversial bill is being debated), should I just wait on the phone for hours on end or submit my e-mail (which has been responded to)? You're grasping at straws with the phone call or e-mail issue. You listed e-mails, I e-mailed.

bonelizzard;683450 wrote:Back to the topic before I get scolded again... If public education is really as bad as what I'm hearing on this forum by most of you, do something about it. Be a teacher.

How could we be teachers when there are very few openings? The market is saturated with so many unemployed teachers (due to layoffs and too many people being in the career field) that it would be very improbably of landing a job.

bonelizzard;683450 wrote: If SB5 passes, in which it won't, you won't have the unions to worry about anymore. You could be your own "professional" teacher. I teach because I enjoy being around young people and hopefully making a difference in their lives. Not for the $, or benefits. Ok I'm sure that you're going to start to tell me about all the benefits that I have and wished you had... So, fire away.. But bottom line is people work to get paid. There's no $ in teaching. Ok, I'm sure that you are about to compare my salary with Lawyer's salaries and tell me that I am better off. Sure I am.. (sarcastically) College grads. don't want to be teachers because there's no $ in it. So, you want to make a difference? Be a teacher..

If you are not in it for the money or benefits than why are you making such a big deal about SB5? If others share your passion for teaching, SB5 will not make a difference and people will still aspire to be teachers because they want to make a difference in a young person's life. So if money and benefits aren't that important to you and others like you, how will SB5 passing effect education and students negatively? You have yet to expand on that claim you have made. I am genuinely curious to hear your thoughts on the negative implications of SB5, not just talking points.

Also, Education is one of the most popular majors in college, not sure where you are getting your facts to make a claim that college grads don't want to be teachers. Here are some sites for you to view.

http://www.princetonreview.com/college/top-ten-majors.aspx

http://www.scholarships.com/resources/college-prep/choosing-a-major/the-most-popular-college-majors/

Notice that Education is one of the most popular at all degree levels.

According to a 2010 report published by the U.S. Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics, the most popular college majors at the bachelor’s degree level include:

Business
Social Sciences/History
Health Sciences
Education
The largest numbers of master’s degrees were awarded in the following fields:

Education
Business
The most popular doctoral degrees include:

Health Professions and Related Clinical Sciences
Education
Engineering
Biological and Biomedical Sciences
Psychology
Physical Sciences

It is evident to me that Education is a very popular field for college students to major in likely because of the great salary and benefits packages and also job security (which is now in question because of bloated budgets and decreased tax revenue. Why are thes budgets so bloated? Generally majority of the budgets are salary and benefits).

Sonofanump;683416 wrote:Why are we comparing Ohio with NYC & Washington DC?

To show that spending more doesn't necessarily mean you're getting a better product.

Lots of city school districts keep spending more and more per pupil (most of it in salaries) and test scores and other measures of success keep going down. But do those schools stop coming back for more money from taxpayers? Nope. They keep coming and want levies passed to keep increasing those costs, but aren't being held accountable to improve results at the same time.

All that aside, why is it so hard for some of you to understand that THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN and getting rid of collective bargaining is one of the first, and biggest, steps toward reclaiming accountability for the money being spent, and to reign in costs that simply can't keep going up forever.

bonelizzard;683450 wrote:You can't tell me that someone of importance would rather read your email or text than talk to you personally. really?

Odds are, if I'm working, and I don't recognize your number, I'm not going to stop everything I'm doing and risk engaging in a conversation with you.

However, if you send me an email, I can get to it on my own time, and thus, I'm more likely to hear you out.

I'm not spitballing. That's how virtually everyone has acted with whom I've done business.

A phone call is more personal if you're talking to friends or family. If you're talking to someone with whom you have a business relationship (public servant would count, since you would be a constituent), and they don't know your number, it's just annoying.

bonelizzard;683450 wrote:So, if you were being interviewed for a job, sending your responses via email or text would land you that job?

Today, actually, yes. Not ten years ago. Back then, driving to that place of business and handing a secretary your resume was the best way to go. However, now that we have the technology to enable companies to get to resumes on their own time, that's how virtually all companies are hiring ... via online application and emailed resume.

bonelizzard;683450 wrote:Oh yeah in the private sector? really? Ok than I guess your more "professional" than I am because I don't think so..

I tend to avoid judging people's opinions, but the FACT is that business is not about being "personal." Your future employer does not need your warm 'n fuzzies, and almost ALL business anymore is done via digital means. I am on MAYBE two phone calls a day in the office. In a typical day, I read about 60 emails, and send another 60. It's faster. It allows for "attachments." And the person to whom I'm talking can receive my message on their own time and terms.

bonelizzard;683450 wrote:I hope that wasn't a personal shot or I offended anyone.. just giving my opinion on this public forum..

Not at all. No offense taken whatsoever, but I'm telling you, nobody really does phone calls as a primary form of business anymore. It's just not efficient, and businesses tend to like efficiency.

bonelizzard;683450 wrote:Back to the topic before I get scolded again... If public education is really as bad as what I'm hearing on this forum by most of you, do something about it. Be a teacher.

How am I going to replace the local teacher who has a few years under her belt, and has a Union basically propping up her position? She's never going to be let go, so the space won't be vacant.

bonelizzard;683450 wrote:If SB5 passes, in which it won't, you won't have the unions to worry about anymore. You could be your own "professional" teacher. I teach because I enjoy being around young people and hopefully making a difference in their lives. Not for the $, or benefits. Ok I'm sure that you're going to start to tell me about all the benefits that I have and wished you had... So, fire away.. But bottom line is people work to get paid. There's no $ in teaching. Ok, I'm sure that you are about to compare my salary with Lawyer's salaries and tell me that I am better off. Sure I am.. (sarcastically) College grads. don't want to be teachers because there's no $ in it. So, you want to make a difference? Be a teacher..

$100,000 annual compensation package as an AVERAGE in Wisconsin says otherwise. There IS both money and security in being a teacher.

College students, if you're wanting to make a difference, by all means, be a teacher and help us replace the apathetic teachers with ones that care about the kids, Union or not. If you're looking for money and job security ... I know teaching sounds tempting (my brother is currently getting his Masters to become a teacher for these very reasons) ... but please choose an avenue that doesn't cause so much strain on the taxpayers, ESPECIALLY when the economy turns down and the Unions still flex their muscles enough so that teachers don't have to feel the financial burden of the economy. Please take the high road, and don't be a teacher unless you're in it because you love the idea of teaching kids.

Sonofanump;683458 wrote:First year teachers will be making $21,900 up to ten year experience will make $32,000. From what I understand that will reduce some salaries to near 40% of the original salary. I see alot more house forclosures in the future in Ohio. How do student loans work when a person no longer makes payments on them?

I have heard the same..if that's the case 80 percent of teachers will have to find a new job...

okay, maybe not..If this bill passes it will be negative for all. I have seen nothing positive for passing it...I come from a hardworking family that made so little I could get enough to go to college and qualify for loans...which after 13 years of teaching I am still paying back...my wife is also a teacher...and has loans..We both worked hard to go to college and get degrees to make a difference, now all our work is being threatened. Everyone has their strengths, I worked several jobs while earning my teaching degree, and am proud of what I do everyday. If this passes, I may very well move out of the state..I have lived here my entire life, but drastic mistakes by govt. would be cause to make drastic decisions.. I will not be part of this error..Down with Senate Bill 5!

A new name, YAY!!!

Would any new graduate from education consider Ohio for employment?

Sonofanump;683635 wrote:Would any new graduate from education consider Ohio for employment?

I would say yes. There's many things that we (as non teachers) would have to take into consideration. Some teachers-to-be want to teach at the school(s) they went to, some want to stay close to family, some like the small towns when they consider having kids of their own, etc. Because of these reasons if they can stay in Ohio I'm sure they will in a minute.

CenterBHSFan;683638 wrote:I would say yes. There's many things that we (as non teachers) would have to take into consideration. Some teachers-to-be want to teach at the school(s) they went to, some want to stay close to family, some like the small towns when they consider having kids of their own, etc. Because of these reasons if they can stay in Ohio I'm sure they will in a minute.

Your right, there are plenty of trailers to live in with your new salary and debt. Actually, they would probably need to get a teaching job at their local school so they could live with their parents.

ok, I'll try to type really fast because if I spend too much time typing I have to log in again and lose the info. that I just got done typing.. Typing isn't my thing but obviously IS for you DW and O Trap. I'm probably going to have a moderator come on here and tell me that I'm personally slamming you guys, but I feel that's what you're doing do me... No matter how "intelligent" you may sound or how well you can type. That's great. Oh, O trap you're typing at 1 a.m. really..? I'm in bed at that time. You guys are professional forum posters and you know what? you're pretty good at it too. Not a personal slams moderator... truth...
Last night was Friday night.. Don't know if you guys are married or have girl friends or what.. but I took my wife out to eat. had a great time. enjoyed the time with her... Maybe you guys should do the same? Not personal.. just talking points or discussion matter or what I feel relative conversation..

Anyway and I hope I don't get cut off here before I have to log in again, about the phone call/ email personal piece. I'll try and make this bold..YOU GUYS ARE WRONG... IF YOU'RE ADULT LIKE AND/OR MATURE ENOUGH YOU WILL ADMIT THIS.. IF YOU TALK TO SOMEONE, IT IS MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE THAN EMAILING THEM AND/OR TEXTING. It's ok to admit when you're wrong. I won't think any less of you and it really does make you look like the bigger man when you do... admit when you're wrong... Better get back to the topic or I'll get scolded.. But you guys got off topic and didn't get scolded right? Maybe O trap, Dw and the moderator are all the same people? Huh, makes me curious.


My opinion, and I think I can say what I want on this public forum within the rules.. HB5 is against my constitutional rights. It's ok for me to bargain as a group, collectively..
If taken away, I feel that some of my rights as an American will be taken away from me.

I really would like to talk to you guys and or guy about this because I talk much better than I type and can't even hold a stick to how well you guys type.. Oh, because talking to people is much more effective and personal than email. Friends/employers whoever...It just is and you know it...But, this is what you guys do and you do it very very well. Professional forum poster guys.. not a slam.. my opinion and I think I’m entitled to that?

Sonofanump;683635 wrote:Would any new graduate from education consider Ohio for employment?

Likely, because the market is saturated, they need a job and we have 26,000,000 Americans un/underemployed - many of which with equal or greater qualifications.

Manhattan Buckeye;683654 wrote:Likely, because the market is saturated, they need a job and we have 26,000,000 Americans un/underemployed - many of which with equal or greater qualifications.

link?

bonelizzard;683645 wrote:YOU GUYS ARE WRONG... IF YOU'RE ADULT LIKE AND/OR MATURE ENOUGH YOU WILL ADMIT THIS.. IF YOU TALK TO SOMEONE, IT IS MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE THAN EMAILING THEM AND/OR TEXTING. It's ok to admit when you're wrong. I won't think any less of you and it really does make you look like the bigger man when you do... admit when you're wrong.

Well, if that isn't an effective argument, I don't know what is.

HB5 is against my constitutional rights. It's ok for me to bargain as a group, collectively..
If taken away, I feel that some of my rights as an American will be taken away from me.

Which constitutional right, exactly, do you think is taken away by this? And what are your grounds for that?

You're entitled to your opinion, and I share your preference to talk in person, not over a forum, but that just isn't practical here.

Gblock;683681 wrote:link?

Link for what, the number of qualified people or the number un/underemployed?

If it is the latter just google it - and find a source you have confidence in. 26M is typically the average reported, but I've seen figures as high as 31M and as low as 22M. If it is the former, it is common sense that many of these folks have college (or higher) degrees.

Serious question, do you realize how bad the job market is right now, particularly for younger people?

I see folks on here throwing around salaries as if SB 5 sets every salary structure for every school district in Ohio.

I don't believe that's true.

I'm guessing this is more propaganda to scare people into working against the bill.

bonelizzard;683645 wrote:Oh, O trap you're typing at 1 a.m. really..? I'm in bed at that time. You guys are professional forum posters and you know what? you're pretty good at it too. Not a personal slams moderator... truth...

Bed at 1-2AM. Up at 6 on weekdays. Up at 8 on weekends.

Why am I typically up so late? Because, as I said before, I run my own company IN ADDITION to my 8-5 job and spending time with my family. I didn't make enough to make ends meet, so I did something about it ... something that had nothing to do with bitching to make sure I didn't feel the effects of the economy.

The problem is that you, and other teachers who think like you, are so out of touch with the actual economic state of the market. Those who have are the ones that have been laid off ... which was necessary because nobody was willing to take a pay cut to free up the money to keep everyone employed.

I work from 8-5 every day. I get home at about six, and I spend time with my wife until she goes to bed around 10. I then spend several hours working my other job ... an Internet-based job ... which allows me to multitask, something that enables me to post on here amidst my work.

I'm far from a professional forum poster. I did however have an article published in a philosophy-based peer-review journal, which means that typing defenses, defeaters, and observations was something I learned in college, studying under the most brilliant men I've ever met, who didn't let me get away with any logical fallacies, baseless assumptions, or the like.

So, if you think I'm a "professional forum poster," your really just saying that I'm a logical thinker with good writing, grammatical, and communication skills. I thank you for that.

bonelizzard;683645 wrote:Last night was Friday night.. Don't know if you guys are married or have girl friends or what.. but I took my wife out to eat. had a great time. enjoyed the time with her... Maybe you guys should do the same? Not personal.. just talking points or discussion matter or what I feel relative conversation..

Taking my wife out tonight, when she gets off work. Already got the reservations in place. Not a night goes by that I don't spend several hours with my wife. Only when she's either not around or asleep do I get anything work-related done.

So, contrary to what you think, I tend to have a pretty full life.

bonelizzard;683645 wrote:Anyway and I hope I don't get cut off here before I have to log in again, about the phone call/ email personal piece. I'll try and make this bold..YOU GUYS ARE WRONG... IF YOU'RE ADULT LIKE AND/OR MATURE ENOUGH YOU WILL ADMIT THIS.. IF YOU TALK TO SOMEONE, IT IS MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE THAN EMAILING THEM AND/OR TEXTING.

Incorrect. As I said, this was more effective years ago, before the commonality of such things as email and texting. However, these forms of communication are FAR preferable for someone who has a busy life, because it allows them to hear you out ... but when they have time to listen.

bonelizzard;683645 wrote:It's ok to admit when you're wrong.

I recanted a statement of mine in one of these threads, so I'm no stranger to doing so. However, your assertion is illogical and baseless. Therefore, it is incorrect, and you are incorrect in holding it as true.

bonelizzard;683645 wrote:I won't think any less of you and it really does make you look like the bigger man when you do... admit when you're wrong... Better get back to the topic or I'll get scolded.. But you guys got off topic and didn't get scolded right?

Actually, I had written something on the post-count discussion, but after seeing Fly's post that said to leave it alone, I erased it.

bonelizzard;683645 wrote:Maybe O trap, Dw and the moderator are all the same people? Huh, makes me curious.

Eh, I've been a mod on other sites. Not all it's cracked up to be. To answer your question, I can't speak for dwcrew, but I'm the only "me" on this board.

bonelizzard;683645 wrote:My opinion, and I think I can say what I want on this public forum within the rules.. HB5 is against my constitutional rights. It's ok for me to bargain as a group, collectively..

I'm willing to hear you out on the Constitutional Rights part. Where in the Constitution is this right established?

bonelizzard;683645 wrote:If taken away, I feel that some of my rights as an American will be taken away from me.

Felt rights and actual rights are not the same.

bonelizzard;683645 wrote:I really would like to talk to you guys and or guy about this because I talk much better than I type and can't even hold a stick to how well you guys type.. Oh, because talking to people is much more effective and personal than email. Friends/employers whoever...It just is and you know it...But, this is what you guys do and you do it very very well. Professional forum poster guys.. not a slam.. my opinion and I think I'm entitled to that?

I wouldn't mind sitting down and talking at all. If you live anywhere near Akron, let me know. I'll buy you a beer.

Talking, whether on the phone or in person, is more "personal," yes. I won't deny that it is more personal, regardless of to whom you're speaking. I was saying it's not as EFFECTIVE in the business world, because trying to use a phone call will, most often keep you from getting your message heard, as people are insanely busy (even typing on here, I'm usually multitasking ... things I'd rather not put down to have a phone conversation).

I do what works. I'm in the business world, and I do my best to keep abreast of the latest efficiencies. They make my job, and the job of those around me, easier.

As for the additional "professional forum posters" claim ... and the fact that you try to just toss it up as opinion ... you're allowed to think what you think ...

... because in America, you're allowed to be blissfully ignorant and wrong.

Sonofanump;683643 wrote:Your right, there are plenty of trailers to live in with your new salary and debt. Actually, they would probably need to get a teaching job at their local school so they could live with their parents.

Oh please!

This is why I want to know where these numbers are coming from. I believe it's all propaganda and scare tactics, with not a shred of truth to back it up.