Gblock;681629 wrote:This bill will weaken education and your children will not recieve the same level of education. I dont think anyone can disagree with that. While some places have board of ed's who will make solid decisions and keep class sizes down and advocate for children. You may even get rid of some poor teachers but overall putting too much power in the hands of local boards will create situations where money/cost will be the deciding factor in their decisions. I know for a a fact the school board in my hometown is not equipped to make the type of decsions that this bill would give them the power to do. this bill would allow schools to go back to 36 kids in a class...you could see schools cut out art, gym and music....while the union protects it s workers it also advocates for your children and holding the district accountable for the quality of your child's education. Do you really want to save money by reducing the quality of your childrens education? You also will see a decline in the number of quality applicants who want to be teachers because it just won't be as attractive of a job. Besides the fact that you could more easily fire poor teachers or it being cheaper how will this bill improve your child's education?

I can't speak to about the board of education claims because I do not know enough about each and every one in the state of Ohio, but this bill will actually make it possible for better teachers to make more money because it won't be all about seniority. It should (as it does in the private sector) foster an environment in which you are pushed to do your best because if you don't you can and will be punished or fired. In my opinion, the results of merit pay in the private sector cannot be refuted. Businesses are run better and more efficiently. Of course there will be issues with implementing any new program but that's not a valid excuse to simply not do it. Our education system is in serious trouble and changes need to be made. Professional adults should be able to advocate and bargain on behalf of themselves. If their work is up to par they will be able to keep working (and even advance their career) just like the millions of people that do that on a daily basis in the private world.

I find myself looking at this situation in a completely different way this morning. (keep in mind that this bill might not even pass)

I think that all of the union supporters/workers are really selling themselves short in this. I mean think about it. They are so entrenched to rely on unions for their career that the very thought of not relying on it anymore just fills them with fear, resentment and a feeling of a potentially strong emotional loss.

I can only empathize with their feelings in a small and minor way; in that I can liken it to moving out of my parents home and establishing my own place. I know longer had the protective umbrella of my parents' roof. I had to manage paying my own rent, talking to utility compnaies by myself, not to mention doing all the "shopping" around to find a good apt. for myself to begin with. Also all the other myriad of issues that I had to contend with in that venture.
I was nervous, filled with anxiety, stressed and wondered if I was doing the right thing. That lasted for a few months until I realized that I was actually doing it and not screwing up and mismanaging myself. Then my proverbial feathers began to smooth themselves.

I know that there will be people who scoff at my comparison and perhaps rightfully so; but again, I said it was only a minor comparison. But, then again, this was my first venture on my own and I wasn't established, I didn't have the rythem yet of a daily life, I didn't have the maturity that someone perhaps 6 years+ older than me.

Again, I'm looking at it in that union people just don't have enough faith in themselves to believe that they could handle it. They are possibly venturing into a new way of the world and are filled with feelings of anxiety, stress, etc. I can empathize with that.

However we are also considering people who are already educated in one way(s) or another in their carreer, people who are intelligent, hard working, and ambitious enough to hopefully willing enough to go through a transitional phase.
I'm not willing to discredit them enough to automatically think that they cannot manage themselves without a separate entity being their mouthpiece. After all, they're not the Borg. They are all individuals and can think, act, manage, and speak independantly.

We also have to realize that it's not like unionated employers are just gonna fire, slash and restrict employees on the spot. They're gonna make the transitional period as easily and smoothely as possible because it will also benefit them to do so. I'm willing to bet that it will take a while to even get used to the idea let alone implement the best possible changes in regards to both sides. They are not going to want to cut their noses off to spite their own faces, let's be real.

But anyway, that's just my new way of looking at things this morning. I still believe everything that I've previously posted, but also new thoughts. I do find it startling that all these people don't have that kind of faith in their own personal and collective abilities at the same time, though. That kinda bewilders me.

CenterBHSFan;681644 wrote:I find myself looking at this situation in a completely different way this morning. (keep in mind that this bill might not even pass)

I think that all of the union supporters/workers are really selling themselves short in this. I mean think about it. They are so entrenched to rely on unions for their career that the very thought of not relying on it anymore just fills them with fear, resentment and a feeling of a potentially strong emotional loss.

I can only empathize with their feelings in a small and minor way; in that I can liken it to moving out of my parents home and establishing my own place. I know longer had the protective umbrella of my parents' roof. I had to manage paying my own rent, talking to utility compnaies by myself, not to mention doing all the "shopping" around to find a good apt. for myself to begin with. Also all the other myriad of issues that I had to contend with in that venture.
I was nervous, filled with anxiety, stressed and wondered if I was doing the right thing. That lasted for a few months until I realized that I was actually doing it and not screwing up and mismanaging myself. Then my proverbial feathers began to smooth themselves.

I know that there will be people who scoff at my comparison and perhaps rightfully so; but again, I said it was only a minor comparison. But, then again, this was my first venture on my own and I wasn't established, I didn't have the rythem yet of a daily life, I didn't have the maturity that someone perhaps 6 years+ older than me.

Again, I'm looking at it in that union people just don't have enough faith in themselves to believe that they could handle it. They are possibly venturing into a new way of the world and are filled with feelings of anxiety, stress, etc. I can empathize with that.

However we are also considering people who are already educated in one way(s) or another in their carreer, people who are intelligent, hard working, and ambitious enough to hopefully willing enough to go through a transitional phase.
I'm not willing to discredit them enough to automatically think that they cannot manage themselves without a separate entity being their mouthpiece. After all, they're not the Borg. They are all individuals and can think, act, manage, and speak independantly.

We also have to realize that it's not like unionated employers are just gonna fire, slash and restrict employees on the spot. They're gonna make the transitional period as easily and smoothely as possible because it will also benefit them to do so. I'm willing to bet that it will take a while to even get used to the idea let alone implement the best possible changes in regards to both sides. They are not going to want to cut their noses off to spite their own faces, let's be real.

But anyway, that's just my new way of looking at things this morning. I still believe everything that I've previously posted, but also new thoughts. I do find it startling that all these people don't have that kind of faith in their own personal and collective abilities at the same time, though. That kinda bewilders me.

worst post ever....no one is worried about getting fired slashed or restricted. im worried that i will have 36 kids in a class. Im worried programs and services will be reduced im worried to see my insurance go up and my pension go down. have you even read any of the posts on this board? what do these issues have to do with confidence in one's abilities. show some posts where someone is worried about getting fired or not being able to handle something...handle what anyway??

Gblock;681650 wrote:worst post ever....no one is worried about getting fired slashed or restricted. im worried that i will have 36 kids in a class. Im worried programs and services will be reduced im worried to see my insurance go up and my pension go down. have you even read any of the posts on this board? what do these issues have to do with confidence in one's abilities. show some posts where someone is worried about getting fired or not being able to handle something...handle what anyway??

Welcome to real life! People in the private sector have seen their insurance go up year after year and pay into a system (SS) that is going bankrupt. There is a very real chance that people my age won't see a dime of the money they paid in and that those older than us will have to see less as well. Millions of people have taken pay cuts, been laid off, etc for the last three years. That is what happens when times are tough.

Fab4Runner;681642 wrote:I can't speak to about the board of education claims because I do not know enough about each and every one in the state of Ohio, but this bill will actually make it possible for better teachers to make more money because it won't be all about seniority. It should (as it does in the private sector) foster an environment in which you are pushed to do your best because if you don't you can and will be punished or fired. In my opinion, the results of merit pay in the private sector cannot be refuted. Businesses are run better and more efficiently. Of course there will be issues with implementing any new program but that's not a valid excuse to simply not do it. Our education system is in serious trouble and changes need to be made. Professional adults should be able to advocate and bargain on behalf of themselves. If their work is up to par they will be able to keep working (and even advance their career) just like the millions of people that do that on a daily basis in the private world.

Im not worried about getting fired or my pay...i would actually prefer a merit pay system. I just think that some people overestimate the ability of a board of education or local gov't to run the business more efficiently. cheaper maybe at the expense of kids and programs. I think most are against this bill more for the potential damage to their pensions and insurance. It really has little to do with worry about job performance

btw i am applying for my principal's license this summer and taking the praxis, so in the next two years or by the time this bill is in effect i wont be in the union anymore anyway.

My post wasn't just about teachers, it was about public unions in general.

But if you want me to take up your point of view: wouldn't having to teach 36/classroom restrict your abilities? Why would that automatically happen, anyway? Have all districts stated that that would happen if this bill passes?

Insurance going up and pensions going down are happening to alot of people, not just public union people.

What does it have to do about confidence? Everything. Union people absolutely do not think they can speak or manage themselves without unions. We've read that in these sorts of threads a hundred times. I'm not referring to your work abilities as much as I'm talking about your own personal negotiating and managing abilities.

Also people have been wondering (on this forum) if their job will be cut without a union to preserve it.

Yes I have read all the posts, I think I've quoted and responded to other peoples' thoughts since page one.

Not quite sure why your hostile(?) towards my post and eager to try to discredit it when all I did was simply try to put myself into your shoes in the only small, general and minor comparison that I could. If you don't want other peoples' attempts to try and understand your POV, just come out and say it instead of those sorts of tactics, which I don't believe will benefit either side.

One more thing, I have belonged to a union once (AFL-CIO). It's not like I don't have any idea of how things work, what goes on, processes, benefits, detriments, etc.
In other words, you're not talking to somebody without experience, although certainly not in teaching industry.

CenterBHSFan;681670 wrote:My post wasn't just about teachers, it was about public unions in general.

But if you want me to take up your point of view: wouldn't having to teach 36/classroom restrict your abilities? Why would that automatically happen, anyway? Have all districts stated that that would happen if this bill passes?

Insurance going up and pensions going down are happening to alot of people, not just public union people.

What does it have to do about confidence? Everything. Union people absolutely do not think they can speak or manage themselves without unions. We've read that in these sorts of threads a hundred times. I'm not referring to your work abilities as much as I'm talking about your own personal negotiating and managing abilities.

Also people have been wondering (on this forum) if their job will be cut without a union to preserve it.

Yes I have read all the posts, I think I've quoted and responded to other peoples' thoughts since page one.

Not quite sure why your hostile(?) towards my post and eager to try to discredit it when all I did was simply try to put myself into your shoes in the only small, general and minor comparison that I could. If you don't want other peoples' attempts to try and understand your POV, just come out and say it instead of those sorts of tactics, which I don't believe will benefit either side.

not hostile at all i just think that to compare us to children scared to leave the house is demeaning and innacurrate. I dont think you fully understand the reasons that i dont agree with this bill. its has nothing to do with worry about losing my job or my pay. I would like to have the chance to earn more money based on merit...as far as class sizes in our district at one time it was 36...it was the union who got it reduced to 30. im quite sure it would go back up to 36 if the board had its way. I think the union understands where we are in this country and is willing to make concessions and work together with the taxpayers. we realize that unions must evolve. but im not going to give up my right s to collective bargain either and if you were in my shoes you wouldn't either probably. Do you think this bill will improve education? i honestly dont think it will. it will be cheaper and save money. I don't think it will automatically make things more efficient or more like a private sector business.

Public sector unions should NEVER have been given the power to hold taxpayers hostage. It was ridiculous from the start --- thank you democrat socialist Dick Celeste.

In the end, true 'professionals' should easily be able to justify their compensation packages based on their worth and merit -- the way it should be and the way it is for 90% of us in the real world: the private sector.

I would think that true professionals would be jumping for joy now that the shackles of collectivism are being removed and they can achieve their full potential.

Gblock;681629 wrote:This bill will weaken education and your children will not recieve the same level of education. I dont think anyone can disagree with that.

I can. That is complete and utter nonsense. For once, the true professionals in the classroom will have the shackles of collectivism removed and they will have the chance to reach their full potential based on merit; it will spur competition and the good ones will no longer be dragged down by the bad ones. Most ought to be celebrating right now.

QuakerOats;681683 wrote:would think that true professionals would be jumping for joy now that the shackles of collectivism are being removed and they can achieve their full potential.

I dont see the removal of these shackles helping teachers. i think our pay is pretty well capped already i dont see it going up any higher. most teachers i know support merit pay though

QuakerOats;681685 wrote:I can. That is complete and utter nonsense. For once, the true professionals in the classroom will have the shackles of collectivism removed and they will have the chance to reach their full potential based on merit; it will spur competition and the good ones will no longer be dragged down by the bad ones. Most ought to be celebrating right now.

could you explain what shackles are being removed? how could a person reach their full potential by eliminating collective bargaining?

"I would like to have the chance to earn more money based on merit...as far as class sizes in our district at one time it was 36...it was the union who got it reduced to 30."

At what grade level? When people talk about revolutionizing education to make it more efficient and better - we get reactions like this because the unions are so "small c conservative" and hesitant to change. At the HS level there is no reason why some class sizes have to be restricted.

Money is not the ingredient which makes education effective. More of it or less will not substantially changed the efficiency of formalized education. The Union knows this and it is the reason they fight for their members so diligently. I respect that and also realize that even if this bill doesn't pass it's simply a matter of time before collective bargaining will be eradicated.

Here is my #1 worry. We just closed on a new house... before this hit. Given my current budget, we can afford it. If I see a $300 decrease in my pay, per pay, I will almost immediately lose it. I didn't see any of this coming. Part (hell, maybe most) of the blame is on me for not paying attention and not doing research. But can't some of you even sympathize the slightest with an example like this?

"Welcome to the real world," does not really help "ease the pain," nor is it clever.

I agree that it wouldnt hurt for some lecture classes to have 36 or more in HS.

I still don't understand the argument that a cut to pay, insurance, or pension commensurate with revenue equates to a weaker education for or an attack on the kids. That is simply pro-union propaganda!

ernest_t_bass;681696 wrote:Here is my #1 worry. We just closed on a new house... before this hit. Given my current budget, we can afford it. If I see a $300 decrease in my pay, per pay, I will almost immediately lose it. I didn't see any of this coming. Part (hell, maybe most) of the blame is on me for not paying attention and not doing research. But can't some of you even sympathize the slightest with an example like this?

"Welcome to the real world," does not really help "ease the pain," nor is it clever.

Of course I can sympathize with it. It would be very, very unfortunate for any person to be in this situation and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But the reality is it has been happening in the private sector for the last few years. Public employees shouldn't be exempt from feeling the effects of the bad economy. Cuts need to be made EVERYWHERE.

tsst_fballfan;681704 wrote:I still don't understand the argument that a cut to pay, insurance, or pension commensurate with revenue equates to a weaker education for or an attack on the kids. That is simply pro-union propaganda!

i think that the best and the brightest won't become teachers because the job becomes less attractive.

further those who would be in control may be more concerned about the bottom line than the best interests of the students

ernest_t_bass;681696 wrote:Here is my #1 worry. We just closed on a new house... before this hit. Given my current budget, we can afford it. If I see a $300 decrease in my pay, per pay, I will almost immediately lose it. I didn't see any of this coming. Part (hell, maybe most) of the blame is on me for not paying attention and not doing research. But can't some of you even sympathize the slightest with an example like this?

"Welcome to the real world," does not really help "ease the pain," nor is it clever.

I can honestly sympathize. I think the 'welcome to the real world' comments are just a way of saying that the private sector has been dealing with those exact concerns for years. I own houses too and have no guarantee of pay rates, insurance, etc or even of having a job tomorrow.

Gblock;681707 wrote:i think that the best and the brightest won't become teachers because the job becomes less attractive.

...s

I would hope the best and brightest are not becoming teachers now. There are more demanding issues in this world that require the best and brightest to address.

I would like education to be placed in the hands of those who need to be educated and expect resources to be available like teachers to guide and facilitate the process as opposed to having a teacher be the primary resource and determinant of success in the education process. Aren't we smart enough yet as a society to expect that to be the case by now?

misery loves company

tsst_fballfan;681710 wrote:I can honestly sympathize. I think the 'welcome to the real world' comments are just a way of saying that the private sector has been dealing with those exact concerns for years. I own houses too and have no guarantee of pay rates, insurance, etc or even of having a job tomorrow.

What does this smart alec comment prove? Yeah, I'm sure you own house. I gave you a personal example of why this bill scares the beejeezus out of me. You don't need to be condescending.

Con_Alma;681711 wrote:I would hope the best and brightest are not becoming teachers now. There are more demanding issues in this world that require the best and brightest to address.

I would like education to be placed in the hands of those who need to be educated and expect resources to be available like teachers to guide and facilitate the process as opposed to having a teacher be the primary resource and determinant of success in the education process. Aren't we smart enough yet as a society to expect that to be the case by now?

I think that many many teachers have the abilty to be lawyers, doctors, scientists or engineers....but they chose to be teachers because they like working with children and like to coach etc... and could expect that while they might never make the money of those other fields there were still some perks assiciated with the job and they would be taken care of. i fall into this category.